Gladiator/greek inspired warrior

[Vazzaroth]

I've been toying with an idea for a character inspired by gladiators and traditional Greek soldiers. What I mean, is that he would be a melee character based around fighting with a spear, shortsword, light armor, and large shield. I figure I'll have to clear with the DM using Rich's shield spec. feats from this website first, but aside from that, I would like some suggestions about some other things.

What other feats would you recommend for this light, dodge and shield based build? What class would work best? I assume fighter, but mabye there are other ideas?

For those that will ask: No, it's not just becuse of the movie 300, but yes, it did re-inspire me to work with this concept again, and his personality will be based off the Spartans in that movie.

[Tellah]

It may not be the greatest build, but ever since I saw the weapon style feat for Net and Trident in Complete Warrior (page 114), I've wanted to do that pretty badly.

This depends very much on what you're going for here, because you're talking about a wide range of very different fighting styles here. If you want to make a Spartan, be sure that you grab Quick Draw so you can throw spears with your iterative attacks. Consider doing a TWF build with shield bashes, with the understanding that it won't give you an optimal build. Spartans trained for phalanx tactics, so a strongly defensive build makes a great deal of sense--although such builds tend to be horribly ineffective. For a really nice introduction to Spartan fighting and training, read Gates of Fire, a novel about the very battle that 300 depicts.

Gladiators, on the other hand, were a different beast entirely. I'm not sure you could pin down any one thing that gladiators did, although for economic reasons they would have fought without armor, possibly in the nude. The greater portion of the Roman gladiatorial games involved moderately-trained slaves hunting (or being hunted by) dangerous animals. Nice back story material, I suppose, but not a lot to pin a character build on.

[Leon]

I had a similar idea awhile ago that i made using the Warblade from ToB - using mauveres from the Diamond Mind tree

[Vazzaroth]

Tellah: Well, the build is mostly inspired to be a lightly armored fighter who relied on his shield instead of armor for AC. Shield bashs would probably be part of his manuvers, as is the spear throwing. As for the Spartan and 300 part, I guess his attitude and equipment selection is the biggest part taken from them. His AC would probably be emphasized, but phalanx fighting wouldn't neccesarily be his specialty, unless I found him a game where such things came up frequently.

I'll check out that book as well, thanks for the recomendation.

Leon: I considered a Martial Adept as well, but don't think I will go that route. I already play a Warblade.

[Lemur]

I remember a feat from Unapproachable East called Long Reach, which gives you extra reach whenever you fight with a spear (in fact, if you're using a shortspear, you can get 10 ft. reach with a one handed weapon). It might be a good option if you're allowed to take it.

I agree that Quick Draw would be a decent choice. You could wait on taking it until you get iterative attacks, but throwing spears and javelins was one of those things the Greeks did. Alternatively, you could just use a sling for ranged fighting.

You can't go wrong with Elusive Target (Complete Warrior), and it seems to me like it would fit a gladiator-type fairly well in terms of style.

Fighter is your best option overall. However, depending on what kind of gladiator you're aiming at, a little cruelty always could add to showmanship. You might want to pick up a few levels of Rogue, or anything that gives you a bit of sneak attack. You won't be relying on sneak attack, but it can make sense stylistically, and you could pick up Hamstring (Complete Warrior) or Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer), both of which are in line with arena fighting.

Edit: ^Also, if shields are going to be a thing, then Shield Charge and Shield Slam from Complete Warrior can give you some battle control options while using a shield, although they're also focused on charging attacks.

[Vazzaroth]

I like the Evasive Target, especially the Diverting Defence aspect.

I was unaware of the Unapproachable East book, it has some cool looking feats.

As far as a sneak attack, I don't know if I'll use it, at least not at first. And yea, Fighter seems best, to have the character designed around feats.

Edit: Reading the Phalanx Fighting feat, it's actually quite good. If only I could convince a party to support me with it, heh. It's sad it dosn't work with a shortspear, however, just his short sword.

[Closet_Skeleton]

There's a feat somewhere (I've only seen it on Crystal Keep) that lets you wield a spear and a small shield, getting the benifits of a two handed weapon and a shield.

Except since it only works with a small shield it's dumb because nobody ever did that.

[Deus Mortus]

Weapon Finesse and get your DM to allow usage with it with spears, that way your AC will be a lot higher due to dodge bonus.

[Matthew]

What kind of traditional Greek Soldiers are you talking about? Peltasts?

[Vazzaroth]

Well, more like a mix of many of them, since it's DnD and the characters are "heros" after all. Mostly like a Hopolite, though. I would equip him with the breastplate of a Hopolite, but I think it will probably hurt his Dex bonus, depending on how my stats work for a game. I'll probably try to get ahold of some Mithral breastplate, however.

[Matthew]

I see. What are you going to do about the 'Two Handed' problem for Spears and Javelins?

[Vazzaroth]

Short spears are 1 handed. I was going to carry Javelins, but opted to simply carry 2 spears, and a shortsword when they were expended. I'm pretty sure they can be thrown with 1 hand, yes?

[Brauron]

In my Ancient Greek Civilization class last semester, I started designing a "Hoplite" Fighter for D&D. I went Human Fighter with Large Shield, Short Spear, Short Sword, and a Breastplate. I never got very far with Feats.

Also, in the spirit of the thread, a quote from my Ancient Greek prof, who's a big LotR fan: "The Spartans did not have Mithral armor, though I'm sure they would have appreciated it."

[Vazzaroth]

Haha, well, this is adapton to DnD, so his encounter with Mithral might happen.

Anyway, after a little research into weapons, the Spatha seems like I could carry one and use the longsword stats for it instead of a shortsword. This changes my fighting style a little, as all my weapons would not deal similar damage, but the spears would be for long range. I don't know if I will use this or not, and if I get approved for the Long Reach feat I might defenantly scrap the idea.

[Matthew]

The Spatha isn't a very Greek style weapon, but its passable. There were longer versions of the Gladius around that might qualify as a 'Long Sword'.

In any case, what you want is something like the Shield and Pike Feat. To be honest, it should be perfectly possible to use Spears and Long Spears with Heavy Shields. You might consider creating a new weapon 'Hoplite Spear' if there is a problem using normal D&D Spears.

You know, I only just noticed that Javelins no longer appear to be Two Handed Weapons in 3.5. Looks like you can use them no problem.

[Brauron]

Just a note -- in real life, Hoplites did not throw their spears. They were for thrusting purposes only.

[TheThan]

Well since I never pass up a chance to promote my own work:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33801

edit

I used Wikipedia for a source so it may not perfectly accurate, but heck its dnd so it shouldn’t matter, unless we're talking about Samurai here.

[Matthew]

Just a note -- in real life, Hoplites did not throw their spears. They were for thrusting purposes only.

Sure, but we're not modelling Greek Hoplites here, but a Greek / Gladiator inspired type Warrior. There's plenty of spear throwing in the Illiad and a Hoplite could probably have served as a Peltast under the right conditions...

[Ar-Sakal]

Remember Greeks and Romans did not fight similarly. And Roman soldiers and gladiators were again not the same.

A greek soldier of the golden era of Greece would use a Long Spear as his weapon of choice. He would also be armed with a Tower Shield and most had little other armor. He didn´t throw his spear as missile and would use a sling to throw stones before locking shields to form a phalanx with his other mates. He relied on being pushed by the ranks behind him if he was a front rank fighter and resisting the push and bull rush from the enemy phalanx in front of him. He would have STR and CON as his prime stats. He probably would take Weapon Expertise for defense and Weapon Focus (Spear). If he was a fighter, he would also go for Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus.

A roman Legion soldier would fight with a splint mail, a long shield, a couple of throwing spears called pilum and a short sword called gladius. He relied on forming an impenetrable shield wall where a wave of barbarians would crash with little effect. Before the barbariens clashed, he would throw at least two pilums and then lock shield with his mates. He would stay in formation behind his shield, dodge attacks, and use his gladius to pierce enemies legs and tighs or other point the enemy showed vulnerability. He carried another gladius in case he lost his. He was extremely disciplined, obeyed any command, would march long miles and after a march would dig a fortified camp. His prime stat is CON, with STR and DEX as secondary stats. He would have weapon Focus and Weapons Specialization on Short Sword, Toughness since the Legion relied on tiring the enemies before slaughtering, Quick Draw to throw 2 fast pilums and not lose a step if he needed a new Gladius and any cooperative martial feat. Since a Legion was a unit that could operate as an independent army, he would also have Craft ranks in either engineering or some other daily task. His listen ranks would be high, since he had to rely on superiors to tell him what to do on a battlefield.

Finally, a Gladiator was the football player of his time. He was first a showman and then a warrior. He would be far more agile than his counterparts, since he was fighting with far more room than the soldiers. He would pick flashy feats like two-weapon fighting, dodge, power attack, cleave, etc. He is far more free-form, and would basically use any combination of weapons and feats as long a he would look flashy and daring in the arena.

[Matthew]

Tower Shields are a poor fit for a Hoplite Shield.

Greeks and Romans did at some stage fight very similarly, depending on what period you look at. By the time the Romans were deploying the troops described by Polybius the Greek Hoplite was no longer the chief component of a 'Greek' Army, but rather the Pike Man. However, prior to that, the Romans apparently practised a very similar form of warfare to the Greeks.

Roman Soldiers would not be equipped with 'Splint Mail' by and large. Mail or a Small Beast Plate would be more likely in the mid to late Republic, with an increasing tendency towards Banded Armour in the very late Republican and early Imperial eras. Splinted Armour was worn, but it is the least attested.

Again, depending what period you look at and troop type, a Roman Legionary might fight open order or close order. He might use any one of a number of different types of swords, spears and javelins.

Gladiators varied over time and space similarly. Some were even used to train new recruits to the legion.

In short, you are over generalising here.

[TheThan]

Note: the above link is a gladiator not a soldier, though I suppose they would work in a pinch. I some how associated soldier with gladiator.
For Hoplites or a roman legionnaire I’d just go straight fighter, focus in tower shield, short swords and spear. I some how associated soldier with gladiator.

[Matthew]

I bloody hate Tower Shields. They weigh 45 lbs, they inhibit combat and they are almost as tall as the user. They ain't a good fit for Hoplite Shields and they ain't a good fit for Scuta; as far as I can see they are Pavises.

Heavy Shields are the closest fit for both. Otherwise, best to just create Aspis and Scutum variants for Shields.

[Seffbasilisk]

In a game I'm still working up before I throw it before my gaming group, will have a Hobgoblin nation working with Unit-fighting.

Then again, there'll also be a Gnommish army like that. Phanlanx Fighting, Tower Shields, Swarmfighting. Basically they approach the target and all lock down under locked tower shields for total cover, while the rogue-types run under the shield-ceiling (swarmfighting) and start climbing all over the big 'uns and giant fighting.


So try 'Phanlax Fighting', Hold The Line, Formation Expert [Tactical], and try Quick Draw to swap weapon styles fast.

[Vazzaroth]

Ok, just to clarify: I am not making a legionnare. I am making a character similar to a cross between a hoplite and a peltast. If it helps, he would probably end up looking something like this:

Spoiler

Show

The reason I said "gladiator-like" was becuse many gladiators wore little to no armor, and relied on dodgeing and sometimes their shield for defence, which this character would as well. He wouldn't necessarily fight in an arena. In other words, his Dex would probably he slightly higer than his Str.

Other than that, I enjoy the discussion, please continue.

And I'm pretty much decided on Fighter by now.

[Annarrkkii]

If you're going for a real Spartan-inspired character, even if he's not supposed to be of the run-of-the-mill footment variety, you might want to still grab ahold of Phalanx Fighting from Complete Warrior—just to stay in touch with your roots. You might also want to put aside 1-4 levels of barbarian, for some raging. If you're going to go light armor, then you want to make the most of it. If you're going for a REAL 300-style guy, then you could probably talk to your DM about giving the Dwarven Defender a bit of a twist and making him a stand-your-ground-to-the-last Spartan PrC.

Bear in mind, however, that Greek tactics are tenuous, at the best, in D+D warfare. The Complete Warrior discourses at some length about this, but large phalanxes of disciplined soldiers just get shredded by a fireball. A single mid-to-high CR monster could do immense damage. The idea of Spartans would be most believable in a low-magic setting. That has the added advantage of giving more weight to a character's powers, and reducing dependency on magic items, meaning that kickass characters get to be kickass for no other reason than that they ARE kickass. Which is again the sort of dramatic 300-flavor.