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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Jul 2014

    Default Martial Adept Homebrew

    I like swordsages. D&D 5 doesn't have swordsages. Solution? I make swordsages!

    I've only made maneuvers up to 3rd level, so level 7+ isn't possible yet.

    If the formatting looks wonky, I copied this from Word and the formatting didn't go with it. I've fixed most of it but I'm probably missing stuff.

    How OP do these guys look? What's the most powerful 6th level martial adept GITP can come up with?

    The Martial Adept

    Spoiler: Martial Adept Class
    Show

    Level Proficiency Bonus Features Stances Known Maneuvers Known Maneuver Level
    1st +2 Martial Path 1 1 1
    2nd +2 Martial Path feature 1 2 1
    3rd +2 1 3 2
    4th +2 Ability Score Improvement 1 3 2
    5th +3 2 4 3
    6th +3 Martial Path feature 2 4 3
    7th +3 2 5 4
    8th +3 Ability Score Improvement 2 5 4
    9th +4 3 6 5
    10th +4 Martial Path feature 3 6 5
    11th +4 3 7 6
    12th +4 Ability Score Improvement 3 7 6
    13th +5 4 8 7
    14th +5 Martial Path feature 4 8 7
    15th +5 4 9 8
    16th +5 Ability Score Improvement 4 9 8
    17th +6 5 10 9
    18th +6 Martial Path feature 5 10 9
    19th +6 Ability Score Improvement 5 11 9
    20th +6 Master of the Sublime Way 5 11 9

    Class Features
    As a martial adept, you gain the following class features.

    Hit Points

    Hit Dice: 1d10 per martial adept level
    Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + your Constitution modifier
    Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d10 (or 6) + your Constitution modifier per martial adept level after 1st

    Proficiencies
    Armor: Light armor
    Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
    Tools: None
    Saving Throws: Strength, one other depending on your martial path
    Skills: Choose two from Athletics, Acrobatics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Persuasion, and Stealth

    Equipment
    You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
    • (a) a greatsword, (b) a longsword, or (c) any martial weapon
    • (a) a longbow, (b) a shield, or (c) any martial weapon
    • (a) a dagger or (b) any simple weapon
    • (a) a dungeoneer’s pack or (b) an explorer’s pack
    • Leather armor

    Martial Path
    At 1st level, you decide how you follow the Sublime Way. Choose one of Swordsage, Warblade, and Crusader, detailed at the end of the class description. Your martial path determines your maneuver ability (similar to a spellcasting ability) and which martial disciplines are available to you.

    Maneuvers
    You have learned the Sublime Way, a challenging set of martial arts that allows you to create semi-magical effects with your weapon. Although appearing similar to spellcasting, maneuvers follow a different set of rules.

    Types of Maneuvers
    Strike: These maneuvers are combined with a weapon attack. As an Action, you make a single attack and activate the maneuver at the same time.
    Boost: These maneuvers increase your power for a short amount of time. They are activated as Bonus Actions, and most last a single round.
    Counter: These maneuvers stop enemies from hurting you. They are activated as Reactions in response to a specific set of circumstances.
    Other: Some maneuvers don’t fit into any of these categories. They are used as Actions.

    Maneuvers Known
    You know one 1st-level maneuver from your available disciplines.
    The Maneuvers Known column of the Martial Adept table shows when you learn more maneuvers from your available disciplines. Each of these maneuvers must be at the maximum level you can use or lower, as shown on the table. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new maneuver of 1st or 2nd level.
    Additionally, at 2nd, 4th, and every even level in this class, you can choose a maneuver you know and replace it with another maneuver from your available disciplines of any level you can use.

    Readying and Using Maneuvers
    Maneuvers must be readied before they can be used. You can have as many maneuvers readied as ½ your maneuvers known (rounded up), including any bonus maneuvers known from your martial path.
    Once you use a readied maneuver, it becomes expended and can’t be used anymore. You can recover a single expended maneuver of your choice with a minute of meditation, making it readied again.
    You automatically recover all of your expended maneuvers with a short rest. During a short rest, you can also change which of your maneuvers are readied.

    Maneuver save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your maneuver ability modifier

    Stances
    The Sublime Way teaches you how to control your body. Stances are similar to maneuvers, but are passive bonuses instead of activated effects.

    Stances Known
    You know one 1st-level stance from your available disciplines.
    The Stances Known column of the Martial Adept table shows when you learn more stances from your available disciplines. Each of these stances must be at the maximum level you can use or lower, as shown on the table. For instance, when you reach 5th level in this class, you can learn one new stance of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level.

    Using Stances
    Unlike maneuvers, stances don’t need to be readied before they can be used. Stances can be activated as a bonus action, and last until turned off as a free action.
    You can only have one stance active at once. Using a stance while another stance is active immediately ends the other stance.

    Ability Score Improvement
    When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

    Master of the Sublime Way
    At 20th level, you have mastered the Sublime Way and can fully use its power. Once per round, you can use a maneuver without taking an action. You can use this ability to use maneuvers on your opponent’s turn only if the maneuver is a Counter.


    Martial Paths
    The study of the Sublime Way is ancient, stretching back to the earliest monasteries and dojos. Each of those teaching places evolved its own specialties and teaching styles. Eventually those slight differences became huge differences, and their students evolved completely different styles of combat.

    Spoiler: Path of the Crusader
    Show
    Path of the Crusader
    Your maneuver ability is Charisma. You get your power from devotion to a cause. You might campaign for your god, be devoted to a king, or help and protect the weak.

    When you choose this path at 1st level, you gain the following benefits:
    • You get proficiency in Wisdom saving throws.
    • Your available schools are Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven.
    • You gain proficiency in medium and heavy armor.

    Fighting Style
    At 2nd level, you adopt a style of fighting as your specialty. Choose one of the following options. You can’t take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.
    Defense: While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
    Dueling: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
    Great Weapon Fighting: When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.
    Protection: When a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use you reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll. You must be wielding a shield.

    Steely Resolve
    At 6th level, you get a delayed damage pool that temporarily prevents you from being hurt. Whenever you take damage, the damage goes into your delayed damage pool instead of hurting you. Any effects related to the attack, such as a poisoned weapon, affect you immediately.
    The delayed damage pool can hold up to (your level * 2) damage, and any excess damage hurts you instead. At the end of each of your turns, your delayed damage pool empties and the damage hurts you as normal. For instance, Bob, a 6th level crusader, is hit by a spell that deals 14 points of damage. His delayed damage pool fills with 12 points of damage, and Bob is only hurt by 2 points. At the end of Bob’s turn, he takes the rest of the damage.
    If your delayed damage pool fills, you recover an expended maneuver of your choice, as your pain gives you new energy and focus.
    Whenever you’re healed by a spell, you can split the healing between your HP and your delayed damage pool. If you have a feature that reduces the damage you take, such as resistance, it applies before damage goes into your delayed damage pool.

    Furious Counterstrike
    At 10th level, you learn to channel your pain into a rage that lets you attack your enemies with more power. You get a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the amount of damage in your delayed damage pool divided by 5.

    Zealous Surge

    Beginning at 14th level, you can reroll a saving throw that you fail. If you do so, you must use the new roll, and you can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

    Smite
    Starting at 18th level, you can use the power of your conviction to strike down those you stand in your way. The next attack you make adds your Charisma to the attack and damage rolls. If you hit, your opponent must make a Charisma saving throw (the save DC as your maneuvers) or be stunned until the end of your next turn. You can use this feature a number of times per long rest equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

    Spoiler: Path of the Swordsage
    Show
    Path of the Swordsage
    Your maneuver ability is Wisdom. You get your power by strict mental focus and concentration. Swordsages are closely related to monks, and some players multiclass between the two.

    When you choose this path at 1st level, you gain the following benefits:
    • You get proficiency in Dexterity saving throws.
    • Your available schools are Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw.
    • At every even level, instead of swapping a maneuver for another, you learn an additional maneuver from your available schools.

    Quick to Act
    Starting at 2nd level, you react quickly to danger. You add your proficiency bonus to initiative checks while wearing light or no armor.

    Discipline Focus

    At 6th level, you specialize in a single discipline of your choice. You learn an additional maneuver and stance from that discipline. In addition, your AC increases by 2 when you’re in a stance from your chosen discipline.

    Insightful Strikes
    At 10th level, you’re more effective when using strikes from your chosen discipline. When you hit an enemy with a strike from your chosen discipline, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the damage roll.

    Evasion
    Beginning at 14th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a red dragon’s fiery breath or an ice storm spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

    Sublime Speed

    At 18th level, you can use the power of the Sublime Way to react very quickly. You can take two bonus actions per turn instead of one. You can use this feature a number of times per long rest equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1).

    Spoiler: Path of the Warblade
    Show
    Path of the Warblade
    Your maneuver ability is Intelligence. You get your power though your martial skill and learning. Depending on your DM, Warblades might replace Battlemaster Fighters.

    When you choose this path at 1st level, you gain the following benefits:
    • You get proficiency in Constitution saving throws.
    • Your available schools are Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven.
    • You gain proficiency in medium armor.

    Fighting Style
    At 2nd level, you adopt a style of fighting as your specialty. Choose one of the following options. You can’t take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.
    Defense: While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
    Dueling: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
    Great Weapon Fighting: When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.
    Two-Weapon Fighting: When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.

    Extra Attack
    Beginning at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

    Aggressive Recovery
    Starting at 10th level, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn, you can recover an expended maneuver of your choice.

    Battle Skill
    At 14th level, you have studied the best techniques for tripping, pushing, and grappling your enemies. You add your Intelligence bonus to all Combat Maneuver checks.
    Additionally, you know how to take advantage when you opponent lets his guard down. You add your Intelligence bonus on attack and damage rolls for Attacks of Opportunity.

    Dual Stance
    Starting at 18th level, you have the martial skill and enough knowledge about quantum physics to stand in two ways at once. You can have two stances active instead of one, and you can switch both of them with a single bonus action.


    Maneuvers

    Spoiler: Maneuver List
    Show
    Maneuver List

    1st Level
    Burning Blade
    Vanguard Strike
    Moment of Perfect Mind
    Steely Strike
    Counter Charge
    Mighty Throw
    Shadow Blade Technique
    Stone Bones
    Sudden Leap
    Wolf Fang Strike
    Douse the Flames

    2nd Level
    Flashing Sun
    Hatchling’s Flame
    Shield Block
    Action Before Thought
    Wall of Blades
    Baffling Defense
    Cloak of Deception
    Shadow Jaunt
    Mountain Hammer
    Claw at the Moon
    Battle Leader’s Charge

    3rd Level
    Zephyr Dance
    Revitalizing Strike
    Mind over Body
    Insightful Strike
    Iron Heart SUUURGE
    Devastating Throw
    Shadow Garrote
    Bonecrusher
    Soaring Raptor Strike
    White Raven Tactics
    Spoiler: Maneuver Descriptions
    Show
    Maneuver Descriptions
    The maneuvers are presented in alphabetical order.

    Action Before Thought
    2nd-level Diamond Mind (Counter)
    You react faster than the speed of thought. When you use the maneuver, you get advantage on a single Dexterity saving throw or Initiative check.

    Baffling Defense
    2nd-level Setting Sun (Counter)
    You confuse your foe’s attacks with a strange stance. When you are targeted by an effect that requires an attack roll, make an Insight check. You can choose to use your result in place of your AC.

    Battle Leader’s Charge
    2nd-level White Raven (Strike)
    You lead from the front, your charges inspiring your allies. Before your attack, move up to your speed (but at least 10 feet) in a straight line towards your enemy. Your attack deals an extra 2d6 damage.

    Bonecrusher
    3rd-level Stone Dragon (Strike)
    You deliver a powerful attack to fracture your opponent’s skeleton. If you hit, your attack deals an extra 4d6 damage and your opponent must make a Constitution save. If they fail, attacks against them are a critical hit on a 19 or 20 instead of just a 20. This effect lasts for one hour.

    Burning Blade
    1st-level Desert Wind (Boost)
    You empower your weapon with the fire of the desert. Until the end of your turn, your attacks deal an extra 1d6 Fire damage to your opponent.

    Claw at the Moon
    2nd-level Tiger Claw (Strike)
    You leap into the air, slicing down on your foe. Make an Athletics check against your target’s AC. If you succeed, your attack gets advantage and deals an extra 2d6 damage.

    Cloak of Deception
    2nd-level Shadow Hand (Boost)
    Your power over shadow hides you from sight. You turn invisible until the end of your turn.

    Counter Charge

    1st-level Setting Sun (Counter)
    You attempt to redirect an enemy that moves at least 10 feet towards you and makes a melee attack against you in the same round. If your enemy fails a Dexterity saving throw, they are pushed 10 feet in a direction of your choice and their attack fails. However, if they succeed on the saving throw, they get advantage on their attack.

    Devastating Throw
    3rd-level Setting Sun (Other)
    Grabbing your foe, you spin in a half-circle and launch him away. Target a single enemy you can reach. They must make a Strength saving throw or be pushed 10 feet in a direction of your choice and knocked prone, taking 2d6 damage. For every point by which they fail the Strength saving throw, they are thrown another foot.

    Douse the Flames
    1st-level White Raven (Strike)
    As you attack, you draw your enemy’s attention away from your allies. If your attack hits, your target cannot make attacks of opportunity until the start of your next turn.

    Flashing Sun

    2nd-level Desert Wind (Boost)
    Your blade flashes as you attack with impossible speed. As part of this boost, make a single attack.

    Hatchling’s Flame
    2nd-level Desert Wind (Other)
    A wave of burning energy bursts outwards from your palm. You deal 2d8 Fire damage in a 30 foot cone. Enemies can make a Dexterity saving throw for half damage.

    Insightful Strike
    3rd-level Diamond Mind (Strike)
    You study your opponent and spot weak points in their armor. Make an Insight check. Your attack deals damage equal to that result instead of its normal damage.

    Iron Heart SUUURGE

    3rd-level Iron Heart (Other)
    Your mental strength overpowers your enemy’s spells. You immediately end a spell targeting you with a duration of more than one round, such as Hold Person. You also gain advantage on your next attack roll until the end of your next turn. You can use this maneuver on your turn even if an effect prevents you from taking actions.

    Mighty Throw
    1st-level Setting Sun (Other)
    You use your martial arts training to throw your enemy to the ground. Target a single enemy you can reach. They must make a Strength saving throw or be pushed 10 feet in a direction of your choice and knocked prone.

    Mind Over Body
    3rd-level Diamond Mind (Counter)
    You can focus your mind to control your body. When you use this maneuver, you get advantage on a single Constitution saving throw or death saving throw.

    Moment of Perfect Mind

    1st-level Diamond Mind (Counter)
    Your mental focus renders your will into an unbreakable wall. When you use this maneuver, you get advantage on a single Wisdom saving throw.

    Mountain Hammer

    2nd-level Stone Dragon (Strike)
    You strike with the weight and fury of the mountain. Your attack deals an extra 2d6 damage, and it ignores any Resistance your target has.

    Revitalizing Strike
    3rd-level Devoted Spirit (Strike)
    You channel healing energy through your weapon. If your attack hits an enemy who has attacked your party, you or an ally within 10 feet regains 3d6 health.

    Shadow Blade Technique
    1st-level Shadow Hand (Strike)
    As you attack, you create a shadowy double of your blade to confuse your opponent. You have advantage on your attack. If the attack would still hit if you used the lower die roll instead of the higher, you deal an extra 1d6 points of Cold damage to your opponent.

    Shadow Garrote

    3rd-level Shadow Hand (Other)
    You create a shadowy noose and throw it at your enemy. Make a ranged attack roll against an enemy within 60 feet. If successful, your target takes 5d6 damage, and they must make a Constitution saving throw or be Restrained until the start of their next turn.

    Shadow Jaunt
    2nd-level Shadow Hand (Other)
    A cloud a shadow engulfs you and you reappear across the battlefield. You teleport to any location you can see within 50 feet.

    Shield Block
    2nd-level Devoted Spirit (Counter)
    You thrust your shield between your defenseless ally and your enemy. Your enemy gets disadvantage on their attack, and your ally gets your shield bonus to their AC. You must be carrying a shield to use this maneuver.

    Soaring Raptor Strike
    3rd-level Tiger Claw (Strike)
    You leap into the air, jumping over your enemy’s defenses. Make an Athletics check against your target’s AC. If you succeed, your attack gets advantage and deals an extra 5d6 damage. If you fail, your attack automatically misses.

    Steely Strike
    1st-level Iron Heart (Strike)
    You focus on a single accurate attack, ignoring everyone but your target. You get advantage on your attack, and you deal an extra 1d6 damage if you hit, but all opponents other than your target get advantage on attacks against you until the start of your next turn.

    Stone Bones

    1st-level Stone Dragon (Strike)
    You use the power of your weapon’s impact to toughen yourself. If your attack hits, you gain Resistance to Piercing, Slashing, and Bludgeoning damage until the start of your next turn.

    Sudden Leap
    1st-level Tiger Claw (Boost)
    You leap to a new position in the blink of an eye. As a bonus action, you jump a distance up to your speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

    Vanguard Strike
    1st-level Devoted Spirit (Strike)

    You lead the way for your allies by knocking aside your enemy’s defenses. If you hit with your attack, all of your allies have advantage on attacks against your target until the start of your next turn.

    Wall of Blades

    2nd-level Iron Heart (Counter)
    With the speed of a thunderbolt, you strike aside your enemy’s attack. When you are targeted by an effect that requires an attack roll, make an attack roll as well. You can choose to use your result in place of your AC.

    White Raven Tactics
    3rd-level White Raven (Boost)
    You inspire your allies to seize the initiative in combat. Choose an ally other than yourself within 10 feet. The initiative order changes so that they act right after you, possibly letting them go twice in a single round.

    Wolf Fang Strike

    1st-level Tiger Claw (Strike)
    You lash out with both of your weapons in a burst of speed. You must able to use two-weapon fighting to use this maneuver. Make two attacks against the same opponent, one with each of your weapons. Don’t add your ability modifier to your off hand attack’s damage roll, even if you have the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style.

    Zephyr Dance
    3rd-level Desert Wind (Counter)
    You spin gracefully away from a foe’s attack like the desert wind. If you are hit by an opponent’s attack, you can make him reroll and use the worse of the two rolls.
    Last edited by Weirdbob95; 2014-09-16 at 12:06 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Sheriff in the Playground Administrator
     
    Roland St. Jude's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Adept Homebrew

    Sheriff: Moved to Homebrew because, well, it's homebrew.
    Forum Rules

    Sheriff Roland by Chris the Pontifex

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Composer99's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Adept Homebrew

    Looks neat, so far. If I see anything else of interest or that looks off, I'll edit this post.

    I think you might want to include a long rest in the circumstances in which you recover manoeuvres (emphasis mine in the below passage):

    Readying and Using Maneuvers
    Maneuvers must be readied before they can be used. You can have as many maneuvers readied as ½ your maneuvers known (rounded up), including any bonus maneuvers known from your martial path.
    Once you use a readied maneuver, it becomes expended and can’t be used anymore. You can recover a single expended maneuver of your choice with a minute of meditation, making it readied again.
    You automatically recover all of your expended maneuvers with a short rest. During a short rest, you can also change which of your maneuvers are readied.


    ETA: Re: Smite (the Crusader feature), I'm sure the save DC is the same as for your manoeuvres, but you may wish to make it explicit.
    Smite
    Starting at 18th level, you can use the power of your conviction to strike down those you stand in your way. The next attack you make adds your Charisma to the attack and damage rolls. If you hit, your opponent must make a Charisma saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn. You can use this feature once per short rest.
    Also, Smite seems a bit underpowered for an 18th level ability.



    ETA 2: Manoeuvres that seem overpowered or underpowered, sorted by level and then alphabetically:

    Action Before Thought
    2nd-level Diamond Mind (Counter)
    You react faster than the speed of thought. When you use the maneuver, you get advantage on a single Dexterity saving throw.
    Seems a bit underpowered since there's a 1st level one that does the same for Wisdom saving throws.


    Flashing Sun
    2nd-level Desert Wind (Boost)
    Your blade flashes as you attack with impossible speed. As part of this boost, make a single attack.
    This one might be a bit overpowered? On second thought, maybe not, since Fighter gets Action Surge at 2nd level.


    Shadow Jaunt
    2nd-level Shadow Hand (Other)
    A cloud a shadow engulfs you and you reappear across the battlefield. You teleport to any location you can see within 50 feet.
    50 feet might be a bit too far for an ability you get at 3rd level.


    Insightful Strike
    3rd-level Diamond Mind (Strike)
    You study your opponent and spot weak points in their armor. Make an Insight check. Your attack deals damage equal to that result instead of its normal damage.
    IMO Underpowered for an ability you get at 5th level.


    Mind Over Body
    3rd-level Diamond Mind (Counter)
    You can focus your mind to control your body. When you use this maneuver, you get advantage on a single Constitution saving throw.
    Underpowered


    White Raven Tactics
    3rd-level White Raven (Boost)
    You inspire your allies to seize the initiative in combat. Choose an ally within 10 feet. The initiative order changes so that they act right after you, possibly letting them go twice in a single round.
    Overpowered for an ability you get at 5th level.



    Last but not least, here's a manoeuvre that needs a clarification:
    Bonecrusher
    3rd-level Stone Dragon (Strike)
    You deliver a powerful attack to fracture your opponent’s skeleton. If you hit, your attack deals an extra 4d6 damage and your opponent must make a Constitution save. If they fail, attacks against them are a critical hit on a 19 or 20 instead of just a 20.
    How long does the effect last?

    (It probably doesn't really matter for monsters, but what if, say, a DM has a monster or NPC use this ability on a PC?)
    Last edited by Composer99; 2014-09-15 at 11:31 AM.
    ~ Composer99

    D&D 5e Homebrew:
    This can be found in my extended homebrew signature!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Martial Adept Homebrew

    Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to edit my original post in a bit, making these changes:
    Smite DC clarified
    Smite is now Cha uses/day.
    Sublime Speed is now Wis uses/day.
    Action before Thought buffed
    Mind over Body buffed
    Bonecrusher duration clarified
    White Raven Tactics cannot be used on yourself

    About the rest of your comments:

    I don't feel Smite is too weak. It has good synergy with maneuvers, giving you a high chance of hitting your most important ones. Would it be too much if it gave advantage?

    Is Shadow Jaunt OP in combat or out of combat? In combat, it takes up your action, so you deal less damage if you use it. Out of combat, it's great utility, though the 1 minute recharge prevents using it constantly.

    Insightful strike deals 1d20 + Wis + Proficiency damage, for about 17 at 5th level, while a normal attack might deal half that. The main benefit of Insightful Strike is that it can be used with any weapon, even if that weapon has low base damage.

    White Raven Tactics is probably OP, but I'm fine with that. It helps out your entire team, not just you, and it promotes tactical thinking.

    Also, should swordsages get access to all martial weapons? It doesn't completely fit their theme,

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Pramxnim's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Adept Homebrew

    The class seems to be missing the Extra Attack feature at level 5. Every martial and half-caster class in the PHB (with the exception of the Rogue) gets that feature, with the Fighter noticeably getting more than one instance of it. Since the Martial Adept seems to resemble a half-caster ala Ranger and Paladin, I think it should get an Extra Attack at level 5 as well.

    In light of this, I think you should move the Extra Attack feature granted by the Warblade's Path to level 14, or just replace it with some other ability.
    My current homebrews

    The gods play with dice and parchment!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Composer99's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Adept Homebrew

    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdbob95 View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to edit my original post in a bit, making these changes:
    Smite DC clarified
    Smite is now Cha uses/day.
    Sublime Speed is now Wis uses/day.
    Action before Thought buffed
    Mind over Body buffed
    Bonecrusher duration clarified
    White Raven Tactics cannot be used on yourself

    About the rest of your comments:

    I don't feel Smite is too weak. It has good synergy with maneuvers, giving you a high chance of hitting your most important ones. Would it be too much if it gave advantage?

    Is Shadow Jaunt OP in combat or out of combat? In combat, it takes up your action, so you deal less damage if you use it. Out of combat, it's great utility, though the 1 minute recharge prevents using it constantly.

    Insightful strike deals 1d20 + Wis + Proficiency damage, for about 17 at 5th level, while a normal attack might deal half that. The main benefit of Insightful Strike is that it can be used with any weapon, even if that weapon has low base damage.

    White Raven Tactics is probably OP, but I'm fine with that. It helps out your entire team, not just you, and it promotes tactical thinking.

    Also, should swordsages get access to all martial weapons? It doesn't completely fit their theme,
    Smite doesn't need much buffing, since 5e power level doesn't scale as quickly as 3.X, and you don't want crusader to be the obvious "go-to" martial adept subclass. Maybe add some bonus dice of radiant damage in lieu of just damage equal to Charisma bonus (which, after all, caps at +5 for PCs)?

    What I thought was OP about Shadow Jaunt is not the power itself (as you correctly note, it uses your action for the turn); merely that teleporting 50 feet seems like a lot for an ability you get at 3rd level for use in combat (out of combat, I'd say it's not particularly overpowered). I guess you'd have to compare it to dimension door or similar effects? I might be completely off here.

    For Insightful Strike, 17 damage doesn't seem like that much at 5th level. Perhaps just add the d20 + Wis + proficiency damage to the base weapon damage? Maybe even allow the bonus damage to ignore bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing resistance?

    My concern with White Raven Tactics is the effect on the action economy. I mean, the spell haste requires concentration and isn't that good (although it lasts longer, I suppose).

    Don't get me wrong, I think a martial character having some kind of action-enhancing ability is good, even from relatively low levels. Just not action-economy breaking good at 5th level.
    Last edited by Composer99; 2014-09-16 at 09:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Martial Adept Homebrew

    Your desert wind maneuvers so far are really, really weak as far as the damage dealing ones go. Burning blade deals an extra 1d6 damage on one attack, at the cost of not being able to use a weapon in your off hand or not using any other boosts for the round... I really wouldn't see anyone picking it up because of this. Maybe if you could eventually get more attacks?

    Similarly, hatchling's flame only has an average of 9 damage at level 3... If your enemy fails their saving throw. That's worse than a single attack from a fighter with a greatsword and the wrong fighting style for it. The fact that it doesn't scale at all means that there is no real reason to pick this up beyond telling people, "Hey, I can make a really weak burning hands!"

    And yes, the Sword Sage could use some martial weapon proficiencies. They do not have unarmed damage progression or capabilities, and limiting them to simple weapons would pretty much cement them as the "Out of combat only" subclass. I don't see any need to limit their single attack each round to the lowest tier weapons...

    The Crusader's vengeful strike might be bordering on too powerful... If they were not limited to 1 attack each round as well. As it stands, the maximum +8 bonus on attack and damage is massive in a bounded accuracy system (a fighter with a +3 throwing weapon, the archery fighting style and a Frost Giant's Belt has a +20 hit and +12 damage. The crusader with their delayed damage pool and a 20 str alone has +19 hit and +13 damage.) As it stands, the fact that the Crusader can only use it once/ round (if he's taken a lot of damage) makes it a bit more reasonable... Heck, if he could swing twice in a round, it still wouldn't really be a problem.

    Warblade seems fine, nothing much to comment on there.

    Over all, I really, really think the base class could do with an extra attack at level 5, and that it would not be horribly broken if all of their maneuvers were readied at once (or at least give the sword sage more maneuvers readied.) The amount you have readied at minimum does need to go up, though, since you can literally only use one maneuver each encounter until level 3 with the current setup, which... Is not the most fun. Especially given the varied and combo-oriented chaining maneuver mechanics promote, not having at least 2-3 to toss out in the first and second round seems like a waste. Maybe give 3 or 4 maneuvers known at level 1, much like a wizard knows 4 level 1 spells?

    Just my 2 coppers. I do enjoy that someone started to work on this, however, and look forward to future developments!

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    Default Re: Martial Adept Homebrew

    The class seems to be missing the Extra Attack feature at level 5. Every martial and half-caster class in the PHB (with the exception of the Rogue) gets that feature, with the Fighter noticeably getting more than one instance of it. Since the Martial Adept seems to resemble a half-caster ala Ranger and Paladin, I think it should get an Extra Attack at level 5 as well.

    In light of this, I think you should move the Extra Attack feature granted by the Warblade's Path to level 14, or just replace it with some other ability.
    Over all, I really, really think the base class could do with an extra attack at level 5, and that it would not be horribly broken if all of their maneuvers were readied at once (or at least give the sword sage more maneuvers readied.) The amount you have readied at minimum does need to go up, though, since you can literally only use one maneuver each encounter until level 3 with the current setup, which... Is not the most fun. Especially given the varied and combo-oriented chaining maneuver mechanics promote, not having at least 2-3 to toss out in the first and second round seems like a waste. Maybe give 3 or 4 maneuvers known at level 1, much like a wizard knows 4 level 1 spells?

    Just my 2 coppers. I do enjoy that someone started to work on this, however, and look forward to future developments!
    Thanks for the comments! I'm planning to eventually make maneuvers that give you more attacks, like Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose from 3.5. I don't want to give the Martial Adept an Extra Attack automatically because it might be too much more powerful than a Fighter - at level 10, they would each have the same number of attacks and damage, but Martial Adepts get maneuvers on top of that.
    Also, extra attacks don't fit well with Strike maneuvers, which limit you to one attack.

    About readying maneuvers, I'm worried that if I give too many early on, Martial Adepts will overshadow fighter-like classes. Fighters only get Action Surge at level 2, and it takes until level 5 for them to get their most powerful ability, more attacks. I don't want to give Martial Adepts much power early because most of the other classes don't have much power early either. Wizards have 4 level 1 spells known because their spells refill each long rest, while Martial Adepts' refill on a short rest.

    My concern with White Raven Tactics is the effect on the action economy. I mean, the spell haste requires concentration and isn't that good (although it lasts longer, I suppose).
    The biggest potential I see with White Raven Tactics is using it on an ally to give them a single extra turn. It's certainly very strong, but is it too strong? Also, remember overpowered abilities are only really negative when they make one party member overshadow the others, while White Raven Tactics does the opposite.


    Do you guys have any ideas for stances? I'm finding them harder to balance, because I want them to be noticeable in power while not making Martial Adepts stronger than Fighters. One possibility would be to give some of them a downside as well as a positive, or for stances to use Concentration.

    Finally, any opinions on changing Flashing Sun to be a strike that gives 2 attacks instead of a boost? What about not letting it be used with Heavy weapons?

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    Default Re: Martial Adept Homebrew

    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdbob95 View Post
    Thanks for the comments! I'm planning to eventually make maneuvers that give you more attacks, like Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose from 3.5. I don't want to give the Martial Adept an Extra Attack automatically because it might be too much more powerful than a Fighter - at level 10, they would each have the same number of attacks and damage, but Martial Adepts get maneuvers on top of that.
    Also, extra attacks don't fit well with Strike maneuvers, which limit you to one attack.
    Still, even with multiple extra attacks from boost maneuvers... most of the boosts that the Sword sage/ Crusader would get from ToB wouldn't be all that viable. They would have to choose between extra attack boosts, or a single attack with +1d6-5d6 fire damage, or +3d6-10d6 healing to one ally. The second one might be useful sometimes... if you could use it multiple times a round. The first one just isn't enough. And the Warblade can always use some help. All of that being said, allowing the base class to have an extra attack would help with some of the viability problems with the damage boosts, and it would not invalidate the fighter. The fighter will have other resources, still get more attacks, still gets more ability score increases, and has its own subclass abilities to draw from. Sure, it's better than a champion fighter... but champion is straight-up bad, and likely the worst class/ subclass in the game. Balancing to it is not really all that important. Also, an important thing to note... there is already a core class that gets as many attacks as the fighter, and that can add more on top of that. I'm looking at you, Monk. Especially Shadow Hand and Way of the Elements.

    If you wanted to make it nice and balanced without gimping the SS/ Crusader's viability to use boosts, you could make it so that an attack that is modified by a boost and all strikes scale their attack bonus off of the maneuvers stat of the initiator, while still keeping their str/ dex (which ever it relevant) to the damage of the attack. That way, the character needs to devote resources to improve the chance of a strike landing, while still needing to expend resources on their primary physical stat to deal damage. It would keep them worse than a fighter in at least one of their primary roles (accuracy or damage), while still letting them have nice things without being too much more powerful (such as having an extra attack/ more maneuvers known).

    Alternately, if you are really that concerned with Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose (as well as Time Stands Still, I suppose), you can always apply a penalty to those maneuvers in particular instead of the entire class. Say, if you initiate Dancing/ Raging Mongoose enemies gain advantage on attack rolls against you until your next turn, or maybe you make the extra attacks at disadvantage, to represent the wild abandon you have when you make them? Either way, it's better that flat-out reducing the effectiveness of a large swath of the class mechanics (boosts, the Crusader/ Swordsage's combat potential after round 1, etc, etc).

    As for strikes vs extra attacks, actually, that is a perfect tradeoff. You are sacrificing an extra attack (and thus likely more damage, definitely more damage with the Warblade, who can swing twice) to potentially apply some secondary effect. It worked the same way in 3.5, though in that edition full attacking was a hail-mary after the first or second attack in your iteration anyway, so maneuvers were always better... a problem that would not necessarily show up since BAB is not a thing in 5e, and all attacks have the same chance to hit. Initiating a strike would also (typically) lower the effectiveness of your boosts this way, meaning that the tradeoff is even more of a debate. Do you hit once for a powerful rider effect, or potentially multiple times with a stacking rider (aka boost)? Currently, it's no brainer, you strike when you can, boost at the same time, burn up everything in round one, and then sit there and twiddle your thumbs while your enemies ignore your one tickle attack each round. I would like to see a little more tactical depth than this, which also suggests getting more resources to spend each round, and leads me to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdbob95 View Post
    About readying maneuvers, I'm worried that if I give too many early on, Martial Adepts will overshadow fighter-like classes. Fighters only get Action Surge at level 2, and it takes until level 5 for them to get their most powerful ability, more attacks. I don't want to give Martial Adepts much power early because most of the other classes don't have much power early either. Wizards have 4 level 1 spells known because their spells refill each long rest, while Martial Adepts' refill on a short rest.
    Wizards also get all-day at will spells that scale with their level, the ability to learn any number of their spells, and a much more potent resource in the form of arcane magic. Their massive power is balanced out by their 2 spells/ day at level 1... which they get 3 of at level 2. And then 4 of at level 3. And then... An initiator currently, however, gets 1 at level 1, 2 at level 4, 3 at level 8... all the way up to 6 at level 20. This is nowhere equal to the wizard's 5 at-will+25 spells/ long rest, with more from arcane recovery. Especially because those spells are going to be so very potent, and the wizard can have any number of them he wants known instead of a meager 11. Heck, the sorcerer has 15 known and prepared at all times, and can recover them even easier. Giving the initiator classes a little boost in the maneuvers known/ readied department at early levels will not break the game, and giving them two more once they reach levels 10 and 20 (to a maximum of 17 known and 9 readied if you let them have 4 at level 1) will allow them to do their COOL THINGS more than one round each adventuring day in a dungeon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdbob95 View Post
    The biggest potential I see with White Raven Tactics is using it on an ally to give them a single extra turn. It's certainly very strong, but is it too strong? Also, remember overpowered abilities are only really negative when they make one party member overshadow the others, while White Raven Tactics does the opposite.
    And to add to that, the ally only goes twice in a round if they act after you, so it requires timing as well as an ally to make awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weirdbob95 View Post
    Do you guys have any ideas for stances? I'm finding them harder to balance, because I want them to be noticeable in power while not making Martial Adepts stronger than Fighters. One possibility would be to give some of them a downside as well as a positive, or for stances to use Concentration.

    Finally, any opinions on changing Flashing Sun to be a strike that gives 2 attacks instead of a boost? What about not letting it be used with Heavy weapons?
    Giving them drawbacks (ala Punishing Stance) or just limited usability (ala Pearl of Black Doubt/ Island of Blades) would likely be the best way to go with stances. They should be useful, but only in certain situations or come at a price and be a bit of a gamble.

    I like the idea of keeping it as a boost, and I don't see why you would have to remove heavy weapons. In fact, I don't think a heavy weapons category exists in 5e... perhaps limiting it to melee instead would work? But there is really no need to change that one, it's good as is. Maybe make it a level 3 boost if you are concerned about it, but otherwise, leave it alone.

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