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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    I can't take credit for this but someone mentioned in another thread using Keen Mind and Minor Conjuration to summon your spellbook if it was ever taken away. To go a step further you could have a master spellbook that you only use to copy spells into. Once a month you study this spellbook. The rest of the time you use Minor Conjuration.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    themaque's Avatar

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    wink Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    I think it's fair to say that if the character can't visualize the object in their head, they can't create it.
    Did we just find a great use for the Keen Mind feat?

    "Oh you need that key? I caught a glance of that. Here you go!"
    “You know what your problem is, it's that you haven't seen enough movies - all of life's riddles are answered in the movies.” Davis. -Steve Martin- Grand Canyon

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  3. - Top - End - #33
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Cambrian's Avatar

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    So what would you say about Graustein's suggestion, that the Keen Mind feat could allow a wizard to, by RAI, accurately replicate keys and maps?
    I'd say if a character with Keen Mind had studied such a map or key within the time period stated in Keen Mind's rules then yes they absolutely could. That's a really clever use of abilities, and deserves to be rewarded.

    A character that is not familiar with a particular map can make a map, but it wouldn't necessarily be a map of anything in particular. If a character is semi-familiar I'd probably rule they could make the map, and then every time they read a specific detail I'd require a hidden Int check to see if they got that particular detail right-- If they fail the check then they are mislead by the map.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    A resplendent robe you gift to the emperor an hour before his coronation march.

    A pillow for later that night in jail.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Your money that you just paid to a shop? I realize gold doesn't go as far as it used to, but it still has its uses.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Still loving the create part of the sun idea, there's gotta be a way to see the center of the sun if your DM rules you can only create the 6000C outside because that's what you've seen. Scrying maybe, teleporting in and then having someone true resurrect you would probably work.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    Still loving the create part of the sun idea, there's gotta be a way to see the center of the sun if your DM rules you can only create the 6000C outside because that's what you've seen. Scrying maybe, teleporting in and then having someone true resurrect you would probably work.
    It would probably require polymorphing into a fire elemental to ensure the success. Perhaps an enterprising wizard could summon a fire elemental servant, cast some spell on it that lets him see through its eyes, then teleport it into the sun. Afterwards, he'll need a cleric to restore his eyes. He'll also want the keen mind feat so he can clearly remember what he saw. But yeah, after that it'd be pretty clearly RAW, if not RAI.

    Though that assumes the FR sun is our sun and not a giant portal to the plane of fire (as the ocean contains portals to the plane of water, and clouds likely portals to the plane of air, and probably portals to the plane of earth deep underground).
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2014-10-20 at 12:18 AM.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    It would probably require polymorphing into a fire elemental to ensure the success. Perhaps an enterprising wizard could summon a fire elemental servant, cast some spell on it that lets him see through its eyes, then teleport it into the sun. Afterwards, he'll need a cleric to restore his eyes. He'll also want the keen mind feat so he can clearly remember what he saw. But yeah, after that it'd be pretty clearly RAW, if not RAI.

    Though that assumes the FR sun is our sun and not a giant portal to the plane of fire (as the ocean contains portals to the plane of water, and clouds likely portals to the plane of air, and probably portals to the plane of earth deep underground).
    It doesn't really make sense as a portal to the plane of fire, there's nothing in the plane of fire described as being anywhere near as hot as the sun.

    The part of it I like is how over the top it is, I am trying to think of a situation where nuking yourself and the surrounding countryside is a proportionate response.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Orc in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    It doesn't really make sense as a portal to the plane of fire, there's nothing in the plane of fire described as being anywhere near as hot as the sun.

    The part of it I like is how over the top it is, I am trying to think of a situation where nuking yourself and the surrounding countryside is a proportionate response.
    perhaps there are a million intellect devourers, and they all happen to be in the above stated surrounding countryside.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    I know it can only conjure one object, but what about an object that can easily break into smaller, functional, objects (the kit-kat principle)? Could you use that to then summon a large ball made of caltrops and water? Conjure the ball 10 feet away, the water flows away and leaves behind a pile of caltrops!
    Of course, you would have had to see one first, and it would still glow, but hey, that's what are illusions are for!

    I think the kit-kat principle could be used to make things like:
    A bunch of arrows in a ball of water.
    Tin foil for your tin foil hat collection.
    Mr. Potato Head.
    Any toolkit in a ball of water (toss the one you have in the lake for inspiration).

    Using a ball of water is important because the object disappears if it takes damage. Water should just flow away naturally without fuss. I'm sure other "connector" materials work as well, but water is clear and widely available so making "demo objects" that are conjured later is easy.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    What do we think about creating a weapon? It would be magical ("the object is visibly magical"). Would you agree that those two qualities (being a weapon, and being magical) make it a magical weapon?

    So what would you say about Graustein's suggestion, that the Keen Mind feat could allow a wizard to, by RAI, accurately replicate keys and maps?
    1. Yes I would consider that a magical weapon. It's a fantastic use for this class feature since magic weapons are necessary to fighting lots of baddies. Let's the conjuror feel like their class and specialty has an impact.

    2. If a player cares enough to invest in a feat I'm going to do everything I can to reasonably accomodate them. Keen Mind seems like a good 'in-game' opportunity to allow for that kinda advanced use of the feature.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Post Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    ::reasonablenesscheck::
    I just got off of another posting where the debate became a heated fight between either it creates what you know of an object (and therefore crossbows don't work) or it brings the object to you (and therefore the queen's diary can be yours on demand, but she can erase/destroy it too). Others wanted something in between but couldn't beat the lawyers at that game.

    Save yourself the angst up front - this is a DM's call thing. But you are open to share your table's view on it, but it won't work until you have that talk and it may change even then once you get going.

    As a DM, I think the 3.5 psionic power 'Call Item' is a perfect thing to point at to keep it realistic. They make some good limits without ruining the effect:
    1. GP limit depending on your level (10-1000 gp at 5th level there)
    2. Only items you can buy in books, but they can be a 'set' of related itemes (ex. caltrop bag, a tool set)
    3. You only call an item of a type, not a specific item. So you could get a steel sword vs. adamantium sword, but not a particular looking one or with/without gems. So, getting 'that key' is laughably hard and you can get a generic book but not a specific one. (arguably, replace with 'not a spellbook' and 'you have to have read it' would be better)

    There was also no size limitation (I liked calling small houses for sudden protection or blockades) but arguably that should be a real spell, not an at-will thing.
    ::/reasonablenesscheck::


    As a player, I want to get fun.

    • The thing limiting most rock gnome builds is a lack of power. enter conjuring a wound spring or pressurized steam/box/etc. to fill the gap. Potato guns are deadly when they shoot hundreds of caltrops, necrotic mucus, or crates of bolts.
    • More simple would be working with a sniper and giving him a poisoned arrow every round.
    • Talk to a craftsman and create something unique. A spring-loaded pop-up wall is on top of my list - instant cover which can be brought back on demand after being destroyed (over and over).
    • Obstacles for one square - rattan chairs work here or wet cork bundles (fireproof). Better if you are small due to size issues
    • First strike options for using alchemist fire flasks. If the DM balks that the flask is destroyed and therefore disappears just fill a flask you buy/make in off time and throw
    • Lazy intimidation. A few boards can over a pit trap and threaten to take the chair away on a prisoner. Extra points for re-conjuring smaller and smaller chairs/boards
    • For fall lovers - a bonfire covered with wet leaves. 2 rounds and everyone will leave the room.
    • Another intimidation one - give the person only conjured water, then dispel it. Repeat.
    Last edited by Stealthscout; 2014-10-20 at 12:42 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    This ability reads like your green lantern creating obviously fake glowing magical versions of items. I think people trying to create spell components, alchemical reactions (poisons, potions etc) are really far off of what was intended with the ability. All you'd really create is a magical glowing shape of a diamond, or a shape of a vial with liquid. No where does it say you actually create the items it states it takes the forms of objects. You may summon what looks like a chunk of the sun but it isn't going to be hot or have the same properties.

    Possible uses I'd allow at my table are: making a 1 handed weapon or a shield, making tools IE hammer, saw, wrench, axe, shovel, oar, crowbar making mundane items, hooks, pullys, wheels, chests, chairs, shelves, or some more creative options like manacles, spyglass, saddle, pots and pans when cooking on the road. I'd allow things like unique keys etc if they had the keen mind feat.

    Things I wouldn't allow: Spell Components, Alchemical solutions, poisons, potions, etc , food, complex contraptions,

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    One of the problems with conjuring weapons and some tools like hammers is that it disappears if damaged. Can you use a weapon to do damage that doesn't take some damage in return? Same with a hammer or even a spike to wedge a door, it would seem like those would take some damage in their use.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    RAW contradiction: the object conjured must not BE magical, but once conjured is visibly magical. So obviously, you can't conjure a +1 weapon, because that would BE magical, but you can conjure any weapon under 10 pounds, which would be ... obviously magical.

    What they are aiming for is you can't conjure up a wand of fireballs that you saw once, or a +3 Sword of Extra Powerful Smites.

    What you can do is conjure a glowing weapon of magical origin which grants no benefits except that it is of magical origin. I'd say that's good enough to qualify as a magic weapon.

    But it disappears if it takes damage, so if your blow is blocked by armor, or parried, does that destroy the weapon? I'd have to think about it, but my DM-fu says this smacks of cheese, and that limiting the utility of your at-will magic weapon is probably the right way to go. The item conjured is intended to be fragile.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

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    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by PracticalM View Post
    One of the problems with conjuring weapons and some tools like hammers is that it disappears if damaged. Can you use a weapon to do damage that doesn't take some damage in return? Same with a hammer or even a spike to wedge a door, it would seem like those would take some damage in their use.
    This should be possible as long as your material has a higher Mohs scale rating than whatever you're trying to damage. Diamonds can cut rock without being affected by the rock, AFAIK.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    This should be possible as long as your material has a higher Mohs scale rating than whatever you're trying to damage. Diamonds can cut rock without being affected by the rock, AFAIK.
    Interesting use: can conjurers conjure adamantine stuff?
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Interesting use: can conjurers conjure adamantine stuff?
    Well, creation can do that explicitly, but it's a much higher level spell rather than an at will ability.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    Possible uses I'd allow at my table are: making a 1 handed weapon or a shield, making tools IE hammer, saw, wrench, axe, shovel, oar, crowbar making mundane items, hooks, pullys, wheels, chests, chairs, shelves, or some more creative options like manacles, spyglass, saddle, pots and pans when cooking on the road. I'd allow things like unique keys etc if they had the keen mind feat.

    Things I wouldn't allow: Spell Components, Alchemical solutions, poisons, potions, etc , food, complex contraptions,
    Absolutely agree. Keep it flexible and useful but within reason. Want your conjured arrow to be covered in poison? Better use a real poison on the conjured arrow.


    Quote Originally Posted by PracticalM View Post
    One of the problems with conjuring weapons and some tools like hammers is that it disappears if damaged. Can you use a weapon to do damage that doesn't take some damage in return? Same with a hammer or even a spike to wedge a door, it would seem like those would take some damage in their use.
    I think you have to walk a fine line here. A hammer, spike, shield, and sword are all designed and created to withstand the damage from their use. My interpretation? Using the hammer doesn't cause it to disappear but an enemy shooting a crossbow bolt at the hammer to prevent me from using it to [whatever's appropriate] does.

    Key points:

    1. Is the player getting to use his ability and have fun?

    2. Are the other players being overshadowed by my and the player's interpretation?

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by INDYSTAR188 View Post
    1. Is the player getting to use his ability and have fun?

    2. Are the other players being overshadowed by my and the player's interpretation?
    Bah, that's too reasonable! We're looking to abuse RAW here!

    People have mentioned that when combined with Keen Mind you can reproduce books (being able to accurately recall them and such). I've seen people argue that Keen Mind alone does not let you memorize your entire spellbook, or at least, you can't study your own mind instead of a spellbook each to prepare spells. Perhaps with Minor Conjuration you could reproduce the spellbook that you've seen (just happens to be your own spellbook). It lasts for an hour which is enough time to study from it.

    The point this could become broken is scribing spells into your spellbook. If you capture a spellbook, you could read the spell in it, and (since you have now seen a book with that spell scribed in it and can recall it accurately) then just use minor conjuration to summon a book with that spell in it to study from. No 50gp per spell level for you!

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    AgentPaper's Avatar

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    I think the kit-kat principle could be used to make things like:
    A bunch of arrows in a ball of water.
    Tin foil for your tin foil hat collection.
    Mr. Potato Head.
    Any toolkit in a ball of water (toss the one you have in the lake for inspiration)
    Why summon it in a ball of water when you could summon it in a ball of glowy magical air?
    Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    Still loving the create part of the sun idea, there's gotta be a way to see the center of the sun if your DM rules you can only create the 6000C outside because that's what you've seen. Scrying maybe, teleporting in and then having someone true resurrect you would probably work.
    Background custom that you have seen a solar eclipse, or just assume you have seen this rather common phenomenon. Solar eclipse reveals the corona of the sun. The corona is 1M Kelvin in temperature. take some corona instead.

    To add to the discussion in general: if you have seen the key before and held it in your hand then you should be able to minor conjure that particular key.
    Life is precious, guard it will your soul.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    In the FR, the sun is not a portal to the Plane of Fire, but there are hundreds of such portals on the surface. The temperature is high enough to overcome any known protective magic; it is simply impossible for any creature from the Prime Material Plane to survive even an instant there. Personally, I think that's idiotic, but it is official.

    Also, the FR stars are all portals to the Plane of Radiance.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    In the FR, the sun is not a portal to the Plane of Fire, but there are hundreds of such portals on the surface. The temperature is high enough to overcome any known protective magic; it is simply impossible for any creature from the Prime Material Plane to survive even an instant there. Personally, I think that's idiotic, but it is official.

    Also, the FR stars are all portals to the Plane of Radiance.
    That's fine, just scry or go ethereal.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    That's fine, just scry or go ethereal.
    You can't Scry a place. It has to be a creature. However, according to Realmspace, there has never been any communication between the inhabitants of the sun and and the rest of the system, and probably never will be. Given the number of curious wizards in the FR, this strongly implies that scrying and going ethereal don't work.

    Also, going strictly by the rules, Minor Conjuration conjures AN object, not part of an object. So you have to take the entire sun, which is only possible if it's no more than 10 pounds and 3 feet on a side.
    Last edited by JoeJ; 2014-10-24 at 12:29 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    You can't Scry a place. It has to be a creature. However, according to Realmspace, there has never been any communication between the inhabitants of the sun and and the rest of the system, and probably never will be. Given the number of curious wizards in the FR, this strongly implies that scrying and going ethereal don't work.

    Also, going strictly by the rules, Minor Conjuration conjures AN object, not part of an object. So you have to take the entire sun, which is only possible if it's no more than 10 pounds and 3 feet on a side.
    But what then is an object? There is no single object on a base level, particles themselves are just a name for clouds of amplitude in a configuration space, an object is just a large factor in the wave function. There is no such thing as a single or partial object because on a fundamental level there is no such thing as an object - so if you can summon anything at all, you should be able to summon parts of things since a part of a thing is a thing.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    But what then is an object? There is no single object on a base level, particles themselves are just a name for clouds of amplitude in a configuration space, an object is just a large factor in the wave function. There is no such thing as a single or partial object because on a fundamental level there is no such thing as an object - so if you can summon anything at all, you should be able to summon parts of things since a part of a thing is a thing.
    Plato would disagree.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Plato would disagree.
    He would, but fortunately the physics of his era, named after his student, are a by-word for being completely wrong.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Gosh, people don't care about catgirls at all these days...
    Last edited by Fra Antonio; 2014-10-24 at 01:44 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Minor Conjuration: Use and Abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    He would, but fortunately the physics of his era, named after his student, are a by-word for being completely wrong.
    In D&D they're probably not wrong. In some (A)D&D settings, phlogiston is real. In most D&D settings, Aristotelian elements are real (earth/air/fire/water) as opposed to Mendeleevian elements (antimony/arsenic/aluminum/selenium/etc.).

    Anyway, I didn't mean to argue, I was mostly just attempting humor about platonic ideals.

    P.S. My favorite quote about Aristotle comes from Dr. Science. "Aristotle was a genius. He knew everything there was to know in his day, which wasn't much, and it was all wrong." Probably unfair to Aristotle but it makes me chuckle anyway.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2014-10-24 at 01:47 AM.

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