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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Am building a 3.x necromancer and realized that using the Warbeast (MM2) template I can buy whatever animal I want and then kill it for its corpse. I'm not looking to break the game more to offset my all +0 physical stats and minor LA with some minions who'll keep me immediately relevant in combat.

    I like some of the combinations of templates one can apply to Animal creatures purely from a oooh-that's-neat standpoint. I know that Pounce (not retained, thanks Jeff the Green) and/or claw-claw-bite are best animal traits to look for. As is flight. I've narrowed my list down to a few experimental animals and the world is Eberron where the Magebred animal trade is a thing.

    I just do not know how animals stack up to other creatures for the purposes of zombification and skeletonization. From what I gather I can't command a Titanic (MM2) animal due to the HD limitation (I can keep 21HD, Titanic is 25HD); which is a shame as I was hoping to Titanic something Fine then Dungeonbred it for fun (not sure which template has to apply first though).
    Edit: This answer in the Q&A thread tells us that I can't make Dungeonbred Titanic creatures of huge size. Oh well. Was a neat idea though.

    Spoilered below are lists of potential animals and the templates I might be able to add. I'm primarily wondering if adding every template once would even bring an animal up to par with the more common but powerful creatures (centaurs for mobility and equipping, dragons for mobility and power, anything with lots of nat attacks, etc).
    How much Natural Armor is too much for the minion of an ECL 8 character? How much Str? How much Dex?

    Edit again: Added random templates and random animals/vermin lists. They're not perfect but they're mostly random.
    EDIT s'more Also check out this vermin handbook.
    Spoiler: Charts of Random Animals/Vermin
    Show

    As you can see some of these templates can be applied to vermin, and to my knowledge chitinous vermin can be zombies or skeletons. I think there's some fun to be had there.
    Small and smaller Animals and Vermin must be either Titanic (MM2) or be Advanced to medium size to become Warbeasts and get a Market Price and be purchasable.
    Vermin can potentially be trained using variants of the Queen Pheromone Admixture item on page 90 of the Arms & Equipment Guide; ask your DM.

    Each of these charts has been rebalanced to give each creature as fair a chance of being rolled as each other creature with a few exceptions. From my experience it would seem that it takes an average of five rolls to find a creature and apply one template to it. it would be four rolls but there are A LOT of medium and larger animals and that extra set of subcharts ups the average.

    Random size range and type
    01-15 Small and smaller Animals
    16-25 Small and smaller Vermin
    26-75 Medium and larger Animals
    76-100 Medium and larger Vermin

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Small and smaller Animals
    01-05 Badger (SRD)
    06-9 Bat (SRD)
    10-13 Carcass Eater (LM91)
    14-18 Cat (SRD)
    19-22 Dinosaur, Swindlespitter (MM3pg41)
    23-26 Dire Rat (SRD)
    27-31 Dog (SRD)
    32-35 Eagle (SRD)
    36-39 Hawk (SRD)
    40-44 Legendary Eagle (MM2pg137)
    45-48 Lizard (SRD)
    49-52 Monkey (SRD)
    53-57 Needletooth Swarm (MM3pg109)
    58-61 Octopus (SRD)
    62-65 Owl (SRD)
    66-70 Rat (SRD)
    71-74 Raven (SRD)
    75-78 Snake, Viper, Small (SRD)
    79-83 Snake, Viper, Tiny (SRD)
    84-87 Swarm, Bat (SRD)
    88-91 Swarm, Rat (SRD)
    92-96 Toad (SRD)
    97-100 Weasel (SRD)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Small and smaller Vermin
    01-07 Dire Maggot (LM95)
    08-15 Fire Beetle, Giant (SRD)
    16-23 Monstrous Centipede, Small (SRD)
    24-30 Monstrous Centipede, Tiny (SRD)
    31-38 Monstrous Scorpion, Small (SRD)
    39-46 Monstrous Scorpion, Tiny (SRD)
    47-53 Monstrous Spider, Small (SRD)
    54-61 Monstrous Spider, Tiny (SRD)
    62-69 Spider, Subteranean, Hairy (MC:MoF79)
    70-76 Swamp Strider Swarm (MM3pg171)
    77-84 Swarm, Centipede (SRD)
    85-92 Swarm, Locust (SRD)
    93-100 Swarm, Spider (SRD)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Medium and larger Animals which list to roll on
    01-14 Ape to War Desmodu Bat
    15-29 Dinosaur Animals
    30-47 Dire Animals
    48-57 Riding Dog to Indricothere
    58-64 Legendary Animals
    65-80 Leopard to Sea Tiger
    81-90 Huge Shark to Giant Squid
    91-100 Terror Bird to Wolverine


    Ape to War Desmodu Bat
    01-07 Ape (SRD)
    08-14 Baboon (SRD)
    15-21 Bear, Black (SRD)
    22-28 Bear, Brown (SRD)
    29-35 Bear, Polar (SRD)
    36-42 Bison (SRD)
    43-49 Boar (SRD)
    50-56 Camel (SRD)
    57-63 Cheetah (SRD)
    64-70 Crocodile (SRD)
    71-77 Crocodile, Giant (SRD)
    78-85 Desmodu Bat, Guard (MM2pg66)
    86-93 Desmodu Bat, Hunting (MM2pg66)
    94-100 Desmodu Bat, War (MM2pg66) (already a war creature, stop rolling you're done)

    Dinosaur Animals
    01-07 Dinosaur, Battletitan (MM3pg38)
    08-14 Dinosaur, Bloodstriker (MM3pg39)
    15-21 Dinosaur, Deinonychus (SRD)
    22-28 Dinosaur, Elasmosaurus (SRD)
    29-35 Dinosaur, Fleshraker (MM3pg40)
    36-42 Dinosaur, Megaraptor (SRD)
    43-49 Dinosaur, Triceratops (SRD)
    50-56 Dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus (SRD)
    57-63 Dinosaur: Allosaurus (MM2pg70)
    64-70 Dinosaur: Ankylosaurus (MM2pg70)
    71-77 Dinosaur: Cryptoclidus (MM2pg70)
    78-84 Dinosaur: Quetzalcoatlus (MM2pg72)
    85-91 Dinosaur: Seismosaurus (MM2pg72)
    92-100 Dinosaur: Spinosaurus (MM2 pg72)

    Dire Animals
    01-05 Dire Ape (SRD)
    06-11 Dire Badger (SRD)
    12-16 Dire Bat (SRD)
    17-22 Dire Bear (SRD)
    23-27 Dire Boar (SRD)
    28-33 Dire Elephant (MM2pg75)
    34-38 Dire Elk (MM2pg75)
    39-44 Dire Hawk (MM2pg76)
    45-49 Dire Horse (MM2pg75)
    50-55 Dire Lion (SRD)
    56-60 Dire Rhinoceros (FF61)
    61-66 Dire Shark (SRD)
    67-71 Dire Snake (MM2pg76)
    72-77 Dire Tiger (SRD)
    78-82 Dire Toad (MM2pg76)
    83-88 Dire Weasel (SRD)
    89-94 Dire Wolf (SRD)
    95-100 Dire Wolverine (SRD)

    Riding Dog to Indricothere
    01-10 Dog, Riding (SRD)
    11-20 Donkey (SRD)
    21-30 Elephant (SRD)
    31-40 Fhorge (FF72)
    41-50 Forest Sloth (MM2pg106)
    51-60 Grizzly Mastodon (MM2pg123)
    61-70 Horse, Heavy (SRD)
    71-80 Horse, Light (SRD)
    81-90 Hyena (SRD)
    91-100 Indricothere (FF100)

    Legendary Animals
    01-15 Legendary Ape (MM2pg137)
    16-29 Legendary Bear (MM2pg138)
    30-43 Legendary Horse (MM2pg138)
    44-57 Legendary Shark (MM2pg138)
    58-71 Legendary Snake (MM2pg138)
    72-85 Legendary Tiger (MM2pg138)
    86-100 Legendary Wolf (MM2pg137)

    Leopard to Sea Tiger
    01-07 Leopard (SRD)
    08-13 Lion (SRD)
    14-19 Lizard, Monitor (SRD)
    20-25 Manta Ray (SRD)
    26-32 Mastodon (MM3pg101)
    33-38 Megalodon (MM2pg147)
    39-44 Megatherium (FF124)
    45-50 Mule (SRD)
    51-57 Octopus, Giant (SRD)
    58-63 Pony (SRD)
    64-69 Pony, War (SRD) (already a war creature, stop rolling you're done)
    70-75 Porpoise (SRD)
    76-82 Rhinoceros (SRD)
    83-88 Roc (SRD)
    89-94 Sail Snake (MM4pg124)
    95-100 Sea Tiger (MM3pg147)

    Huge Shark to Giant Squid
    01-10 Shark, Huge (SRD)
    11-20 Shark, Large (SRD)
    21-30 Shark, Medium (SRD)
    31-40 Snake, Constrictor (SRD)
    41-50 Snake, Constrictor, Giant (SRD)
    51-60 Snake, Huge Viper (SRD)
    61-70 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake (SRD)
    71-80 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake (SRD)
    81-90 Squid (SRD)
    91-100 Squid, Giant (SRD)

    Terror Bird to Wolverine
    01-10 Terror Bird (FF175)
    11-20 Tiger (SRD)
    21-30 Viper Swarm (FF172)
    30-40 Warhorse, Heavy (SRD) (already a war creature, stop rolling you're done)
    41-50 Warhorse, Light (SRD) (already a war creature, stop rolling you're done)
    51-60 Whale, Baleen (SRD)
    61-70 Whale, Cachalot (SRD)
    71-80 Whale, Orca (SRD)
    81-90 Wolf (SRD)
    91-100 Wolverine (SRD)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Medium and larger Vermin which list to roll on
    01-40 Giant Ant Queen to Megapede
    41-78 Monstrous Vermin
    79-100 Great Old Master Neogi to Giant Wasp

    Giant Ant Queen to Megapede
    01-07 Ant, Giant, Queen (SRD)
    08-13 Ant, Giant, Soldier (SRD)
    14-19 Ant, Giant, Worker (SRD)
    20-25 Astral Kraken (PlH109)
    26-32 Bee, Giant (SRD)
    33-38 Bombardier Beetle, Giant (SRD)
    39-44 Bonespear (FF24)
    45-50 Century Worm (FF31)
    51-57 Chelicera (MM3pg27)
    58-63 Knell Beetle (MM3pg88)
    64-69 Knell Beetle, Lesser (MM3pg89)
    70-75 Leechwalker (MM2pg135)
    76-82 Locust Swarm, Bloodfiend (FF170)
    83-88 Locust Swarm, Rapture (FF170)
    89-94 Lolth-Touched Monstrous Spider (MM4pg93)
    95-100 Megapede (MM2pg148)

    Monstrous Vermin
    01-06 Monstrous Centipede, Colossal (SRD)
    07-13 Monstrous Centipede, Gargantuan (SRD)
    14-20 Monstrous Centipede, Huge (SRD)
    21-26 Monstrous Centipede, Large (SRD)
    27-32 Monstrous Centipede, Medium (SRD)
    33-34 Monstrous Crab (aka That Damn Crab) (web)
    35-40 Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal (SRD)
    41-46 Monstrous Scorpion, Gargantuan (SRD)
    47-53 Monstrous Scorpion, Huge (SRD)
    54-60 Monstrous Scorpion, Large (SRD)
    61-66 Monstrous Scorpion, Medium (SRD)
    67-73 Monstrous Spider, Colossal (SRD)
    74-80 Monstrous Spider, Gargantuan (SRD)
    81-86 Monstrous Spider, Huge (SRD)
    87-93 Monstrous Spider, Large (SRD)
    94-100 Monstrous Spider, Medium (SRD)

    Great Old Master Neogi to Giant Wasp
    01-12 Neogi, Great Old Master (MM2pg159)
    13-23 Plague Ant Swarm (FF167)
    24-34 Praying Mantis, Giant (SRD)
    35-45 Scarab Beetle Swarm (FF171)
    46-56 Siege Crab (MM3pg157)
    57-67 Siege Crab, Greater (MM3pg157)
    68-78 Spider, Subteranean, Sword (MC:MoF79)
    79-89 Stag Beetle, Giant (SRD)
    90-100 Wasp, Giant (SRD)

    Spoiler: Random charts of type retaining templates for Animals & Vermin
    Show

    Inherited Templates are applied in any order first, then Acquired Templates are applied in any order.
    Ignore duplicate results; Unique NPC Abilities can be used multiple times but it is unadvised.

    Roll to determine which chart to roll from
    01 Untemplated
    02-33 Inherited Templates
    34-98 Acquired Templates
    99 One of each
    100 One of each and roll again

    Inherited Templates - applied before Acquired templates
    01-16 Chameleon Creature (Un83) -- animal or vermin
    17-32 Dark Creature (ToM161) -- animal or vermin
    33-48 Dungeonbred Monster (Du113) -- large or larger only, animal or vermin
    49-64 Horrid Animal (ECS287) -- dire animal only
    65-81 Magebred (ECS295) -- animal only
    82 Paragon Creature (SRD) (stop rolling and disregard all other templates) -- animal or vermin
    83-98 Woodling (MM3pg197) -- animal only
    99 Inherited Template and roll again
    100 Acquired Template and roll again

    Acquired Templates - applied after Inherited templates
    01-07 Advanced, Increased Hit Dice
    8-16 Beast of Xvim (MC:MoF85) -- animal or vermin
    17-24 Half-Golem (non-construct variant from appendix) (MM2pg210) -- animal only
    25-33 Half-Machine (Dungeon #91 pg106) -- animal or vermin
    34-41 Lolth-Touched (MM4 pg93) - animal or vermin
    42-50 Mineral Warrior (Un96) -- animal or vermin
    51-58 Poisonous Creature (Dragon #350 pg35) -- animal or vermin
    59-66 Remade (Dragon #352 pg46) -- animal or vermin
    58-63 Stonebone Creature (Dragon #350 pg36) -- animal or vermin
    67-73 Titanic Creature (MM2pg217) -- medium or smaller only, animals or vermin
    74-81 Unique NPC Abilities (DMG2pg157) (pseudo templates, roll once on chart below) -- animals or vermin
    82-89 Voidmind Creature (MM3pg187) -- tiny to huge only, animal only
    90-98 Warbeast (MM2pg219) (must be applied last to give resultant creature a price so stop rolling you're done) -- medium or larger only, animals or vermin
    99 Inherited Template and roll again
    100 Acquired Template and roll again

    Unique NPC Abilities (DMG2pg157)
    RAW it looks like an NPC can only have one at a time and only one NPC per "every two levels that the party advances" can have them.
    "(Note: most of those abilities ... are (Su) by nature. So, if you going to make undead with simple Animate Dead (or Fell Animate), Su abilities will be lost"
    -- Thanks ShurikVch)
    01-05 Aberrant Limbs (Ex) (DMG2pg158)
    06-10 Abysmally Wretched (Su) (DMG2pg158)
    11-15 Arcane Adept (Su) (DMG2pg158)
    16-20 Divinity (Su) (DMG2pg158)
    21-25 Doomwatcher (Su) (DMG2pg158)
    26-30 Dragon Touched (Su) (DMG2pg158)
    31-35 Fey Spirit (Su) (DMG2pg158)
    36-40 Graced from Outside (Su) (DMG2pg158)
    41-45 Gravetouched (Su) (DMG2pg159)
    46-50 Guardian Spirit (Su) (DMG2pg159)
    51-55 Lifemate (Su) (DMG2pg159)
    56-60 Naturebond (Su) (DMG2pg159)
    61-65 Past Life (Su) (DMG2pg159)
    66-70 Poisonlaced (Ex) (DMG2pg160)
    71-75 Prodigy (Ex) (DMG2pg160)
    76-80 Prophet (Su) (DMG2pg160)
    81-85 Spore Carrier (Su) (DMG2pg160)
    86-90 Stormtouched (Su) (DMG2pg160)
    91-95 Unearthly Beauty (Su) (DMG2pg160)
    96-99 Vestigial Twin (Ex) (DMG2pg160)
    100 roll twice again




    Spoiler: Animals of interest for templating and undead-ing
    Show

    Vermin included as they can be bought via Warbeast and trained via Arms & Equipment Guide IIRC.

    Ape -- why when it could be a dire ape?
    Bat -- sadly can't control the 25HD a titanic dungeonbred bat would have
    Dire Ape -- I like it because it can be equipped much like a humanoid
    Dire Bat -- beats out Dire Hawk IMHO, and it's just cooler to have a necromancer on a dead bat
    Dire Lion -- best of the lions/tigers/bears and lions are imperious which is very much IC for this guy
    Elephant -- Dungeonbred is amusing but too much HD for too little gain IMO
    Giant Bee -- funny but the Giant Wasp looked better statwise
    Giant Octopus -- I love the idea of a big dead octopus squeezed into a knapsack in place of ropes
    Giant Wasp -- might have one of these as a zombie mount even if the Dire Bat is better because it amuses me
    Monstrous Crab -- (thanks Bluydee for the link)

    Yeah these are all from the SRD, no real reason other than I'm already book hopping with all the templates. Better suggestions welcome.




    Spoiler: Dungeonbred Warbeast Skeleton That Damn Crab
    Show

    (For use as a power level benchmark, Market Price: 350gp + 250gp onyx)

    Dungeonbred Warbeast Skeleton Monstrous Crab
    Medium Vermin (Aquatic)
    Hit Dice: 8d12 (60 hp)
    Initiative: +11
    Speed: 50 ft. (8 squares), swim 40 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class: 19 (+7 Dex, +2 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 12
    Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+9
    Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+5)
    Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+5)
    Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
    Special Attacks: --
    Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits, Immunity to Cold (Ex), DR 5/bludgeoning
    Saves: Fort +2, Ref +9, Will +6
    Abilities: Str 21, Dex 24, Con 21, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1
    Skills: --
    Feats: Improved Initiative
    Environment: Any, usually temperate coastal
    Organization: Any
    Challenge Rating: 4
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always neutral evil.
    Advancement: 8-10 HD (Large), 11-21 HD (Huge)
    Level Adjustment: --
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2019-06-22 at 08:28 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Here you go.

    I suggest dinosaurs.
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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    I know that Pounce and/or claw-claw-bite are best animal traits to look for. As is flight.
    Zombies and skeletons won't keep pounce, as it's a special attack. What you're really looking for in combat is good stats for its HD, and either a good attack routine (if going with a skeleton) or a good primary natural attack (if going with a zombie).
    Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Zombies and skeletons won't keep pounce, as it's a special attack. What you're really looking for in combat is good stats for its HD, and either a good attack routine (if going with a skeleton) or a good primary natural attack (if going with a zombie).
    Any Warbeast-able Animal or Vermin examples? Any book is fine, I'd just used the SRD critters to start is all.

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Do you have access to frostburn? Dire mammoths, polar bears, and sabretooth cats seem like good base creatures for this(I could see an argument for you being able to buy the corpse if nothing else).
    Otherwise Warbeast+winged template+huge dire shark=best zombie mount ever(that might be too many HD actually, and your DM might throw a book at you), for true ludicrousness swap warbeast for legendary beast and winged for half-dragon and make it a dracolich (not advising this below level 15).

    As for vermin and woodlings, as a DM I would not allow these creatures to be skeletons (they don't have endoskeletons), zombies definitely, but not skeletons.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge_Worm View Post
    Do you have access to frostburn? Dire mammoths, polar bears, and sabretooth cats seem like good base creatures for this(I could see an argument for you being able to buy the corpse if nothing else).
    Otherwise Warbeast+winged template+huge dire shark=best zombie mount ever(that might be too many HD actually, and your DM might throw a book at you), for true ludicrousness swap warbeast for legendary beast and winged for half-dragon and make it a dracolich (not advising this below level 15).

    As for vermin and woodlings, as a DM I would not allow these creatures to be skeletons (they don't have endoskeletons), zombies definitely, but not skeletons.
    I'll look into Frostburn. Thank you.

    Winged and Half-Dragon change the type. The point is that Warbeast allows one to buy any animal for a (rediculously low) price based on its HD. But it only works for creatures who are of the Animal type.

    Vermin with exoskeletons still have skeletons, their skeleton is just on the outside. The Dire Maggot (LM?) doesn't have a skeleton just like the octopus doesn't have a skeleton. One is Vermin, the other is Animal, neither qualify for Skeleton. Both qualify for Zombie. It isn't that Vermin cannot be Skeletons, it is that Vermin without skeletons cannot be Skeletons.

    As for Woodlings the template does not change their type. You'd think it would but it doesn't. And as they are not Plant creatures and they don't lose their skeletal system when the template is applied they still qualify for the template.
    Though I too was given pause when I saw that they weren't plants. My best guess is that the template just dresses the creature up in plant camouflage without actually changing its internal anatomy. At least that's how I account for the RAW.

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    Vermin with exoskeletons still have skeletons, their skeleton is just on the outside. The Dire Maggot (LM?) doesn't have a skeleton just like the octopus doesn't have a skeleton. One is Vermin, the other is Animal, neither qualify for Skeleton. Both qualify for Zombie. It isn't that Vermin cannot be Skeletons, it is that Vermin without skeletons cannot be Skeletons.
    Maggots and octopuses do have skeletons, actually. It doesn't help, though. Applying skeleton through animate dead requires it to have bones, so no invertebrates or cartilaginous fish. Zombie also requires a skeleton, but just about any animal or vermin will have an endoskeleton (bony or cartilaginous), exoskeleton, or hydrostatic skeleton.

    I think there are rules for buying slaves in LoM (probably the neogi section). You should be able to get some of the more exotic things. Dragons in particular are nice since you can apply the zombie dragon or skeletal dragon template via animate dead. One of the better things I can think of would be a half-dragon magebred dire lion.
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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Maggots and octopuses do have skeletons, actually. It doesn't help, though. Applying skeleton through animate dead requires it to have bones, so no invertebrates or cartilaginous fish. Zombie also requires a skeleton, but just about any animal or vermin will have an endoskeleton (bony or cartilaginous), exoskeleton, or hydrostatic skeleton.

    I think there are rules for buying slaves in LoM (probably the neogi section). You should be able to get some of the more exotic things. Dragons in particular are nice since you can apply the zombie dragon or skeletal dragon template via animate dead. One of the better things I can think of would be a half-dragon magebred dire lion.
    I had forgotten about the Lords of Madness slave rules. Thanks for the reminder. I'll see if the DM is cool with an evil giant Warforged owning a few slaves for the express purpose of making them undead.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    The most cost effective means of getting the best body I have found is to use a scrap of dragonhide (1/10th a pound costs 50gp) and a scroll of polymorph any object (3000gp)

    Changing the scrap of dragonhide into the biggest dragon corpse you can animate using animate dead is the same kingdom, class, is of the same or lower intelligence, and the two forms are related. The score finalizes as 11, so the effect is Permanent with out using multicasting questionable rules.

    This is how you create a 40HD great wyrm zombie silver dragon at level 10 (I like silver. The secondary breath is something that undead ignore and is still really powerful).

    Total cost
    Scrap of Dragonskin (silver) - 50gp
    Scroll of PAO - 3000gp
    Scroll of Desecrate - 200gp
    Onyx - 1000gp

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Zombies and skeletons won't keep pounce, as it's a special attack.
    Any extraordinary attacks can be restored via Awaken Undead:
    Undead also regain any extraordinary racial abilities they had in life, such as poison or scent.
    There are some more templates:
    Beast of Xvim
    Chameleon
    Dark
    Half-Golem (non-construct variant from appendix)
    Half-Machine (Dungeon #91)
    Mineral Warrior
    Paragon (OP !!!)
    Poisonous (Dragon #350)
    Stonebone (Dragon #350)

    Fast animals:
    Legendary Horse - 80
    Forest sloth - climb 60, brachiation 40
    Quetzalcoatlus - fly 100 (poor)
    Legendary Eagle - fly 100 (average)
    Dire Badger - burrow 10
    Wolverine - burrow 10
    Cryptoclidus - swim 60

    Strong animals:
    Dire Bear - Str 31, 12 HD, Large; Improved grab
    Dire Elephant - Str 40, 20 HD, Gargantuan; Trample 4d6+22
    Legendary Ape - Str 30, 13 HD, Medium; Rend 2d8+15
    Roc - Str 34, 18 HD, Gargantuan; fly speed 80 (average)
    Spinosaurus - Str 36, 20 HD, Gargantuan; Frightful presence, improved grab, swallow whole, trample 2d8+19
    Triceratops - Str 30, 16 HD, Huge; Powerful charge, trample 2d12+15

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Any extraordinary attacks can be restored via Awaken Undead:

    There are some more templates:
    Beast of Xvim
    Chameleon
    Dark
    Half-Golem (non-construct variant from appendix)
    Half-Machine (Dungeon #91)
    Mineral Warrior
    Paragon (OP !!!)
    Poisonous (Dragon #350)
    Stonebone (Dragon #350)

    Fast animals:
    Legendary Horse - 80
    Forest sloth - climb 60, brachiation 40
    Quetzalcoatlus - fly 100 (poor)
    Legendary Eagle - fly 100 (average)
    Dire Badger - burrow 10
    Wolverine - burrow 10
    Cryptoclidus - swim 60

    Strong animals:
    Dire Bear - Str 31, 12 HD, Large; Improved grab
    Dire Elephant - Str 40, 20 HD, Gargantuan; Trample 4d6+22
    Legendary Ape - Str 30, 13 HD, Medium; Rend 2d8+15
    Roc - Str 34, 18 HD, Gargantuan; fly speed 80 (average)
    Spinosaurus - Str 36, 20 HD, Gargantuan; Frightful presence, improved grab, swallow whole, trample 2d8+19
    Triceratops - Str 30, 16 HD, Huge; Powerful charge, trample 2d12+15
    Cool! Thanks for the contributions! OP updated with templates.

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    DMG2 have "Unique NPC Abilities", which are kinda templates, because they have LA.
    "Aberrant Limbs" and "Prodigy" (Str or Dex) may be kinda useful

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    DMG2 have "Unique NPC Abilities", which are kinda templates, because they have LA.
    "Aberrant Limbs" and "Prodigy" (Str or Dex) may be kinda useful
    Makes me wonder if there are any grafts that could be forced on an Animal minion that could/would survive undeadification?

    Edit: Also added to the OP, thanks.
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2014-09-20 at 12:11 PM.

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Fast animals:
    Legendary Horse - 80
    Forest sloth - climb 60, brachiation 40
    Quetzalcoatlus - fly 100 (poor)
    Legendary Eagle - fly 100 (average)
    Dire Badger - burrow 10
    Wolverine - burrow 10
    Cryptoclidus - swim 60
    Porpoises have 2 HD, but they have a swim speed of 80, which while probably not that useful here, does make 'em fast and is potentially useful for haunt shifting...
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
    Homebrew
    To Do: Reboot and finish Riptide

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Porpoises have 2 HD, but they have a swim speed of 80, which while probably not that useful here, does make 'em fast and is potentially useful for haunt shifting...
    Yes, I know
    But Str 11, 11 hp, lack of land speed and special attacks make it kinda useless (unless you slap on Paragon).
    For the comparison, most of my list of "fast animals" are just monsters, and Legendary Horse is very decent mount. (Dire Badger & Wolverine may be not much, but it's the best burrowing animals I'm aware of)
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2014-09-21 at 04:10 AM.

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Just occured to me that this needs a chart where we can roll a percentile and get a random template.

    Maybe even add "and roll again" to those templates that are largely cosmetic changes and "apply this template and apply this template" for Paragon. And "100" would be a straight 'roll twice and roll again'.

    I used to remember how to make charts like this... can't for the life of me remember now though.

    Edit: I remembered how...
    And they're in the OP.
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2014-10-10 at 09:12 AM.

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    Unique NPC Abilities
    01-05 Aberrant limbs
    06-10 Abysmally wretched
    11-15 Arcane adept
    16-20 Divinity
    21-25 Doomwatcher
    26-30 Dragon touched
    31-35 Fey spirit
    36-40 Graced from outside
    41-45 Gravetouched
    46-50 Guardian spirit
    51-55 Lifemate
    56-60 Naturebond
    61-65 Past life
    66-70 Poisonlaced
    71-75 Prodigy
    76-80 Prophet
    81-85 Spore carrier
    86-90 Stormtouched
    91-95 Unearthly beauty
    96-100 Vestigial twin
    Note: most of those abilities (except Aberrant limbs and Prodigy) are (Su) by nature.
    So, if you going to make undead with simple Animate Dead (or Fell Animate), Su abilities will be lost:
    Special Attacks
    ... retains none of the base creature’s special attacks.

    Special Qualities
    ... loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.
    Even Awaken Undead wouldn't restore them:
    Undead also regain any extraordinary racial abilities they had in life, such as poison or scent.
    To keep (Su) abilities, you will need to use more advanced spells, such as Create Undead/Create Greater Undead. Undead with "Bone Creature" or "Corpse Creature" template retain all their SA/SQ

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Note: most of those abilities (except Aberrant limbs and Prodigy) are (Su) by nature.
    So, if you going to make undead with simple Animate Dead (or Fell Animate), Su abilities will be lost: Even Awaken Undead wouldn't restore them:

    To keep (Su) abilities, you will need to use more advanced spells, such as Create Undead/Create Greater Undead. Undead with "Bone Creature" or "Corpse Creature" template retain all their SA/SQ
    Note added and credit given. Thanks for the heads up.

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    Default Re: How do template stacked Animals compare to more common corpses for necromancy?

    Was linked to an old thread and found this gem that could benefit from some random animal template goodness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin
    Paper of Forms (Oriental Adventures p. 141, 10000 GP). Who would pay 10000 GP for just a large-sized animal, you ask? Well, take a look at the stats for a Legendary Tiger (MM2, 26HD!). If your DM isn't insane enough to allow Legendary Animals, then see if Dire Animals will work. The Dire Tiger is still the best of the bunch, but if you're looking for a flier then try the Dire Vulture in Sandstorm. If he'll allow dinosaurs, then consider the Cave Tyrannosaurus (Miniatures Handbook), Diprotodon (Sandstorm), or Bloodstriker (MM3, but requires an exotic saddle). If core-only, a Megaraptor is a large animal (check the MM errata). If he insists only on normal non-legendary/non-dire/non-dino animals, consider a Smilodon (Frostburn) or Fhorge (Fiend Folio). If you're stuck with core-only ordinary real-world animals, then a Polar Bear or Rhinoceros might be best. Unlike most figurines, the animal created doesn't understand common and has normal animal intelligence, so you'll need to make a DC 20 Ride check to control it in combat, but unlike figurine creatures it can be trained like any other normal animal. You can also add the Warbeast template (MM2) if you can spend a year training it. One major drawback is the vulnerability to fire, although you can fix that by permanently adding the Fire subtype to your animal with a scroll of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit (Sandstorm, 8000 GP). That makes it vulnerable to cold damage, but you can fix that with a scroll of Mantle of the Icy Soul (Frostburn, 1650 GP). If you're having trouble with the DC 20 Craft: Origami check, then pick up a potion of Guidance of the Avatar (WotC Website: Spell Archive, 300 GP) for a +20 competence bonus to your skill check.

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