*Queer Emperor Probelm

[Genth]

Just looking for a little help story-wise

So the Emperor of one of the nations in my game is gay, and has a Prince-Consort. They're very happy together. However, the story kinda places a lot of importance on the bloodline - the emperors are supposed to go back to a heroic fighter from the past. So how might a non-homophobic society deal with having a *queer emperor? It's not just a culture question - the bloodline has important magical properties..

Any thoughts

[Daishain]

Feudal societies tended to make sure there was an heir, by whatever means necessary.

To put it another way, our emperor would likely be asked to marry someone suitable and "spend quality time" with her while she is most fertile. Rinse and repeat until she's pregnant, and then he can go back to his consort.

Not exactly the most romantic relationship in the world, but few of them are when it comes to royalty.

[Wrenn]

Does he have a niece/nephew/young cousin he could adopt as his heir apparent?

[LibraryOgre]

Somewhat depends on a few other things, but some suggestions

1) If he's low enough on the Kinsey scale, he might be able to "lie back and think of England" as it were... have sex with a woman for the sole purpose of reproduction.
2) There's also the "turkey baster" method. Using either mechanical or magical means, he provides seed and the chosen woman is artificially inseminated.
3) Magical gender change, allowing either himself or his Prince-Consort to carry the child, with the assumption that things will be switched back once you've got an heir (and a spare).
4) Magical orientation change; temporarily change his sexual orientation, at least enough to allow him to lie back and think of England.

Because it's his bloodline that's the problem, you lose out on another option... have his official wife impregnated by someone else, though that someone else might be a cousin or other family member with the right bloodline. Birthright (the AD&D setting) also had provisions for the transmission of blood strength... you could gift an heir some or all of your bloodline strength in a ceremony.

[JusticeZero]

I had a thread not long back on a somewhat similar subject..I'll see if I can find it. That said, the two main probable workarounds I saw were:
One, adoption. Adopt a child as your own and continue the bloodline from there. You can probably scrape the bottom of the genetic barrel by checking the kids of various servant types through history. Lots of people have multiple kids after all, so you just need to find that one granddaughter of the scullery maid who worked with the fifth prince removed from the throne in the reign of Tanha the Fourth and elevate them. Or, just blatantly hack the conditions and do adjustments by brute magic force.
Two, arrange for a child. This is harder in this case than in my test case, but if magically necessary, it's still possible to arrange for someone to "lay back and think of the fjords" to accomplish the annoying duty. For example, the Prince could be gender flipped for sake of accomplishing their genealogical responsibility.
Three, just fake it and find something else to rely on. Gee, they have some sort of bloodline power. Sue over there is an Aasimar, that's a nice bloodline power and I doubt anyone will ask too many questions. We'll throw it together with duct tape and not worry about it.

[Wrenn]

Because it's his bloodline that's the problem, you lose out on another option... have his official wife impregnated by someone else, though that someone else might be a cousin or other family member with the right bloodline. Birthright (the AD&D setting) also had provisions for the transmission of blood strength... you could gift an heir some or all of your bloodline strength in a ceremony.

And there's a macguffin quest. The (magic item that allows transference) of the ancient ceremony has been lost to time, only a group of heroes can uncover it.

[Tzevaot]

{{scrubbed}}

[Mr Beer]

I think it would be a trivial problem. Historically very powerful men can have whatever sex life they like as long as they are not public about it (and sometimes even if they are, it's still OK).

They will need an official marriage though and should impregnate that woman.

[LawfulNifty]

Historically, when a monarch fails to produce an heir they go back up the bloodline until they find the nearest ancestor with a living descendant. So if the current emperor never has a kid, does he have a younger sibling who's still around? How 'bout an aunt or uncle? Third cousin? Sooner or later they'll find somebody, and any royal family worth its salt keeps thorough records. Ten seconds of Googling gave me the family tree of Queen Elizabeth going back to 849. Even if none of Elizabeth II's direct descendants had any kids, somebody would still get to be king or queen once they all died.

The important thing is, this opens up adventuring possibilities; maybe the heir to the bloodline is some obscure, distant relative living out in the middle of nowhere, and the Big Bad puts two and two together in time to capture the heir and hold them for ransom. Maybe a bunch of people all pop up claiming to be the long lost third cousin of the emperor and in order to discern who truly carries the mystical bloodline they will need the Chalice of Truth, which has mysteriously vanished.

Of course, if this is a fantasy setting, the Polymorph + "lie back and think of England" approach is way more straightforward (as it were).

[Anxe]

Historically, when a monarch fails to produce an heir they go back up the bloodline until they find the nearest ancestor with a living descendant. So if the current emperor never has a kid, does he have a younger sibling who's still around? How 'bout an aunt or uncle? Third cousin? Sooner or later they'll find somebody, and any royal family worth its salt keeps thorough records. Ten seconds of Googling gave me the family tree of Queen Elizabeth going back to 849. Even if none of Elizabeth II's direct descendants had any kids, somebody would still get to be king or queen once they all died.

The important thing is, this opens up adventuring possibilities; maybe the heir to the bloodline is some obscure, distant relative living out in the middle of nowhere, and the Big Bad puts two and two together in time to capture the heir and hold them for ransom. Maybe a bunch of people all pop up claiming to be the long lost third cousin of the emperor and in order to discern who truly carries the mystical bloodline they will need the Chalice of Truth, which has mysteriously vanished.

Of course, if this is a fantasy setting, the Polymorph + "lie back and think of England" approach is way more straightforward (as it were).

I giggled.

[Sith_Happens]

3) Magical gender change, allowing either himself or his Prince-Consort to carry the child, with the assumption that things will be switched back once you've got an heir (and a spare).
4) Magical orientation change; temporarily change his sexual orientation, at least enough to allow him to lie back and think of England.

Ideally you'd want both of these, one for the emperor and the other for the prince-consort.

[Coidzor]

Just looking for a little help story-wise

So the Emperor of one of the nations in my game is gay, and has a Prince-Consort. They're very happy together. However, the story kinda places a lot of importance on the bloodline - the emperors are supposed to go back to a heroic fighter from the past. So how might a non-homophobic society deal with having a *queer emperor? It's not just a culture question - the bloodline has important magical properties..

Any thoughts

Well, if he's abrogating his duty to knock up a woman to keep the bloodline going and doesn't have a sibling or relative who can get preggers and continue the magical, important bloodline that way... He just might be the ass who ends up causing the country to turn homophobic as a reaction to his selfish and irresponsible behavior plunging them into chaos/war/letting the sealed evil out of the can.

I mean, really, what did you expect having someone who is set up to refuse to propagate the bloodline that has to exist for X reason that's super important for some material reason rather than just being nice for things like governmental stability?

I had a thread not long back on a somewhat similar subject..I'll see if I can find it.

The Female Dragonslayer shows up to claim the prize which was posted as the princess thread?

[Totema]

Do it the way the Romans did: Adopting someone would literally put them into a new lineage.

[Slipperychicken]

Just looking for a little help story-wise

So the Emperor of one of the nations in my game is gay, and has a Prince-Consort. They're very happy together. However, the story kinda places a lot of importance on the bloodline - the emperors are supposed to go back to a heroic fighter from the past. So how might a non-homophobic society deal with having a *queer emperor? It's not just a culture question - the bloodline has important magical properties..

Any thoughts

It should be fine as long as the emperor produces an heir. Just get him to knock up Her Highness as many times as required for a stable bloodline. It shouldn't take long, and it's not like he needs to enjoy it anyway. If he starts complaining, try guilt-tripping him about the magic bloodline and the good of the empire.

[hymer]

try guilt-tripping him about the magic bloodline and the good of the empire.

Some people may be into that, but for some people this is actually counterproductive.

@ OP: I agree with the idea that he should get an official heir the traditional way. It's gotta be better than going to war, which is expected of people in the interests of their country. If the society, or just rules on royals, is/are sufficiently strictly monogamous to prevent this solution (he already has a consort), and the bloodline rules permit it, adopt the next in line. If none of these work, magic. If that isn't a solution either for some reason (bloodline rules, insufficient magic, taboo, etc.), it's time for the top people in the country to sit down and hammer out a new set of rules to encompass the new situation. These would probably require an heir to be produced, and provide a special dispensation to the monogamy problem, in a way that ensures rights for the mother(s) and spells out rules to keep palace intrigue down a little.

[LokiRagnarok]

An unconventional solution: Have the emperor say "screw this" and skip town.
Seriously, what would those among you do when told to have sex with your respective gender of non-preference?

So the emperor decides to flee (taking his Prince-Consort with him, of course). In his hour of need, he approaches the party, maybe in disguise and implores them for help; they are experienced adventurers, while he is, of course, well aware he would not last long in the wild.
No matter how they answer, five minutes later the Scheming Grand Vizier shows up. You see, he is somewhat doubtful about if the Emperor takes his duties into consideration enough. Would the party kindly make sure he doesn't, by chance, skip town or the like?

Instant plot hook - just add water.

[Coidzor]

An unconventional solution: Have the emperor say "screw this" and skip town.
Seriously, what would those among you do when told to have sex with your respective gender of non-preference?

Never doubt the power of Dulce Et Decorum Est, especially when there's something actually on the line, like the seal on the ancient Lich-God's prison.

So the emperor decides to flee (taking his Prince-Consort with him, of course). In his hour of need, he approaches the party, maybe in disguise and implores them for help; they are experienced adventurers, while he is, of course, well aware he would not last long in the wild.
No matter how they answer, five minutes later the Scheming Grand Vizier shows up. You see, he is somewhat doubtful about if the Emperor takes his duties into consideration enough. Would the party kindly make sure he doesn't, by chance, skip town or the like?

Instant plot hook - just add water.

But yes, plots the hookening over here.

[FabulousFizban]

Feudal societies tended to make sure there was an heir, by whatever means necessary.

To put it another way, our emperor would likely be asked to marry someone suitable and "spend quality time" with her while she is most fertile. Rinse and repeat until she's pregnant, and then he can go back to his consort.

Not exactly the most romantic relationship in the world, but few of them are when it comes to royalty.

There is precedent for this in history. It wouldn't be a matter of conforming to hetero-normativity, it would be a matter of maintaining geo-political stability.

[Flashy]

There is precedent for this in history. It wouldn't be a matter of conforming to hetero-normativity, it would be a matter of maintaining geo-political stability.

Exactly! So long as he does his duty by the kingdom who cares what he does in his spare time.

[Khatoblepas]

Adoption + Magical Bloodline Granting Ceremony sounds like the most fair thing for all parties. It's a magical bloodline, right? Surely it can do something as simple as add someone to it after the fact.

Alternate routes could be:

- Emperor goes to a witch, she asks him and his prince consort to let a single drop of their blood fall upon a special flower, and the flower will bloom and reveal a child born of both of them. Hey, it worked in Thumbalina, why can't it work for a gay couple, too?

- Petitioning whatever higher powers there are to grant them an heir.

Remember that you have a fantasy world, and getting a child doesn't have to involve two people having sex. Honestly, the idea of "Polymorph the prince/get him a wife and force him to do it/mind control him into doing it or liking to do it until you get an heir" makes me supremely uncomfortable.

[LawfulNifty]

I mean, I'm not clear on what the consequences of the bloodline dying out will be, but if all the emperor needs to do to keep the Oblivion Gates from opening (or whatever) is get with someone he doesn't find attractive I'm all for having him grit his teeth and get on with it. Otherwise people will die.

It imposes an interesting limitation if, for the magic to work, the heir has to be legitimate, and he's already married the consort (maybe he had an older sibling who died, so the thought of marrying a woman for the sake of the bloodline wouldn't have come up until it was too late). If the emperor skips town, maybe it's because he doesn't know that his bloodline is magical, or he's been told but thinks it's just a legend. Maybe he was supposed to be, like, eighth in line for the throne, but somebody is trying to release the evil by systematically murdering his family, so now in addition to suddenly being under a lot of pressure to produce an heir with his consort, his family is dead and he's probably next.

That's the real reason I don't like the "just find a woman and get on with things" approach, because that almost certainly won't involve the PCs going on an adventure.

Unless you meant for this to be some minor decorative world-building, in which case, do whatever--but in any case, OP, please let us know what you end up doing with this, I'm really curious now.

[MrConsideration]

Monarchs were often contracted to each other earlier than any sexual feelings could develop, so most gay kings were married to women - Edward II of England was quite transparently gay, and famously 'cold' to his wife Isabella, often quarreling with her over his gay partner, Piers Gaveston. If grimdark is an ok part of your campaign, you could have this be the focus of rebellion/scheming on behalf of the nobles or the Queen. If your campaign is anachronistically progressive (and fair play to you if it is - why should we put up with bigotry in our fantasy lives?) then there are presumably plot-hooky magical ways to solve the problem - simply cast's Tenser's Floating Artificial Insemination and be done with it, or have your heroes hunt down the long-lost male heir descended from the Emperor's uncle who as himself an adventurer of renown.

There's plenty of legal precedent for reasonably distant relatives ascending to the throne - Elizabeth and James I and VI, or the rise of the Valois King Phillip VI in France. Both give ample opportunities for plot hooks, too.

[Genth]

Woah, did NOT expect that many answers. You guys are awesome! So in no particular order;

1) Yes, this setting is anachronistically progressive, since I'm *Queer and I like to throw it in my games as just a normal thing... except when it like here, clashes with fantasy cliche's about blood etc.

2) It's not as bad as another nation, where -everything- is about blood, specifically, dragon blood, the nobility are descended from dragon hybrids, and so there's a strict caste system. Enough Dragon Blood to have Horns/Tail/Wings? Noble. Enough for eyes and increased strength? Warrior Caste. No Dragon blood at all? You're a peasant. What it means is that spousal ties mean very little for the nobility; they're socially encouraged to sleep around as much as possible! So I also wanted a bit of a difference to that.

3) I find the 'lie back and think of england' stuff quite uncomfortable.

4) So still thinking about it, in short. I like the idea of blood rituals to create the heir.

*5) Oh, and it's mostly worldbuilding window-dressing, with it being plot-important at one later stage

[Killer Angel]

Do it the way the Romans did: Adopting someone would literally put them into a new lineage.

This doesn't address the problem related to the "bloodline has important magical properties".
Unless with the title, you dont gain also blood-related powers, but i doubt it.

[Firest Kathon]

If the properties of the bloodline are magical, there could be a magical ritual to transfer the properties to an adopted heir.

[TheCountAlucard]

Exalted solves this problem handily with the Neomah, a demon that can be called across the Endless Desert by a skilled Exalted sorcerer. A summoned Neomah can take bits of flesh (or certain fluids) and create a baby from them, giving it life by spinning a tower from her mouth and throwing it into the fires therein. For all intents and purposes (yes, explicitly including magical bloodline stuff), the baby is descended from the (willing or unwilling) "donors," regardless of their respective jibbly bits.

[LibraryOgre]

3) I find the 'lie back and think of england' stuff quite uncomfortable.

Yeah, it's not the best option by a long shot. But assuming the bloodline is important, and there's no magical way to get around the need for him to procreate naturally, it may be the only way.

However, since you're the GM, then there's another way.

[Daishain]

Exalted solves this problem handily with the Neomah, a demon that can be called across the Endless Desert by a skilled Exalted sorcerer. A summoned Neomah can take bits of flesh (or certain fluids) and create a baby from them, giving it life by spinning a tower from her mouth and throwing it into the fires therein. For all intents and purposes (yes, explicitly including magical bloodline stuff), the baby is descended from the (willing or unwilling) "donors," regardless of their respective jibbly bits.

I'm not sure the nobles would trust a demon not to screw with the child or his connection to the bloodline in one way or another. I'm not sure the player's should either. Especially since this is important plot wise for one reason or another.

[TheCountAlucard]

I'm not sure the nobles would trust a demon not to screw with the child or his connection to the bloodline in one way or another.

You seem to be making assumptions of demons in Exalted that don't quite hold true. Since we haven't even been told what system the OP is using, I'm not sure this is the best line for you to take.

Since I'm assuming it's not Exalted, it's also likely not particularly important that a system-transplanted Neomah must remain a demon.

I'm not sure the player's should either.

[Wardog]

Edward II of England was quite transparently gay, and famously 'cold' to his wife Isabella, often quarreling with her over his gay partner, Piers Gaveston.

Edward II had mistresses, and an illegitimate son, so he would have been bi rather than gay.