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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Mar 2007

    Default New Shield Feats because shields need them

    People keep complaining that shields are underpowered, meanwhile I've always been complaining that the shield's stats don't accurately represent one of the main uses for a shield.

    While it is true that defense is a major use for a shields, they are so much more, and I don't mean that lame shield bash mechanic either. Shields are not built to be effectively used as a damaging weapon.

    You don't just sit their hiding behind your shield like a goon and poking around it at your enemies. The shield is one of the most effective ways to deflect your opponents weapon, throw them off balance, and in doing so open up their gaurd immensely allowing you to both do more damage and protect you from their attacks.

    Yes that's right folks, shields were both offensive and defensive. Now for my attempt at feats to allow for this. (Though they may be a bit feat intensive)

    Shield Deflection
    By using the shield to aggressively deflect blows you open your opponent's defenses leaving them open to powerful strikes with your melee weapon. However, by concentrating your attacks on one enemy you are less capable against other enemies.
    Prerequisite: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
    Benefit: Designate one opponent; against this opponent you can treat your one-handed weapon (as long as it could normally be wielded as a two-handed weapon) as if it were being wielded two-handed for the purpose of strength damage and power attack while using a shield in your off-hand.

    Against all other opponents treat your attacks as an off-handed attack only doing 1/2 strength bonus and not receiving the benefits of power attack. While using this feat you cannot use your shield to attack. You still retain your shield bonus to AC. This feat cannot be used with a buckler or tower shield.

    Each round you can choose to change the designated opponent. Also your chosen opponent does not receive an attack bonus from flanking; however, anyone gaining a flanking bonus from him receives an additional +2 bonus. This does not prevent sneak attacks from flanking.

    Improved Shield Deflection
    By using the shield to aggressively deflect blows you open your opponent's defenses leaving them open to powerful strikes with your melee weapon. However, by concentrating your attacks on one enemy you are less capable against other enemies.
    Prerequisite: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Deflection, Fighter Level 6th
    Benefit: As shield deflection except that your weapon is treated as a standard weapon rather than an off handed weapon against all your opponents except the target of this ability. Also your the flanking bonus is reduced to an additional +1 bonus rather than +2.
    Against all other opponents treat your attacks as a standard attack only doing strength bonus and receiving the standard benefits of power attack.

    Each round you can choose to change the designated opponent. Also your chosen opponent does not receive an attack bonus from flanking; however, anyone gaining a flanking bonus from him receives an additional +1 bonus. This does not prevent sneak attacks from flanking.

    Superior Shield Deflection
    By using the shield to aggressively deflect blows you open your opponent's defenses leaving them open to powerful strikes with your melee weapon.
    Prerequisite: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Deflection, Improved Shield Deflection, Fighter Level 14th
    Benefit: As Shield deflection except that all attacks with your main weapon are treated as if being wielded two-handed and your opponents no longer receive an additional bonus to flanking.

    Shield Opening
    With a strong heave of your shield you push your opponent off guard creating a temporary opening in his defense.
    Prerequisite: Shield Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
    Benefit: Instead of a standard shield bash, one can choose to instead attempt to throw his opponent off guard and create an opening for another attack. Make a shield bash attack as normal, but instead of causing damage with the shield bash one instead gains an attack of opportunity with their main weapon. If one can make more than one shield bash per round they may choose to either do damage or cause another attack of opportunity. Individuals with this feat are still limited in their number of attacks of opportunity per round.

    Feat Name: Improved Shield Opening
    With a strong heave of your shield you push your opponent off guard creating a temporary opening in his defense.
    Prerequisite: Shield Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, Shield Opening
    Benefit: Instead of a standard shield bash, one can choose to instead attempt to throw his opponent off guard and create an opening for another attack. Make a shield bash attack as normal, but instead of causing damage with the shield bash one instead gains an attack of opportunity with their main weapon. For the purposes of this attack of opportunity the opponent is considered to be flat-footed. If one can make more than one shield bash per round they may choose to either do damage or cause another attack of opportunity. Individuals with this feat are still limited in their number of attacks of opportunity per round.

    Really this was two different attempts at the fix... but I really see no reason they couldn't work together if you really wanted to specialize at the technique... hmmm though that whole not being able to shield bash with the first chain of feats might make such not very optimal.
    Last edited by Wolf_Boy; 2007-05-14 at 12:53 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    So basically the first pair of feats just lets you use a weapon two handed while using a shield; it just fluffs the mechanic differently. Plus the flanking thing. It's a good enough idea but the requirements are way too steep, in my opinion.

    The first Shield Opening doesn't make any sense to me, unless I am missing something in the execution. You use an attack (shield bash) but don't get to inflict damage. In return you get an attack (attack of opportunity) that inflicts normal damage. AND it uses up an attack of opportunity, which can be valuable. Why not just attack in the first place? The shield opening makes no difference to your chance to hit - lowers it in fact since you have to roll to hit twice before you cause any damage. It should at least remove all shield bonuses to their AC (eg. shield bonus or bonus from Two Weapon Defense). Even that is pretty weak IMO. Once you get the Improved version it is worth it if you are a rogue, if it lets you sneak attack when you knock their shield aside, but not really all that useful for a fighter.

    By the way: it would be nice if, instead of repeating all the text of the mechanic, your "superior" and "improved" differences just stated what they change.

    check out what Talanis and I have been working on in this thread too :) different stuff but in the same vein of shield lovin' and knocking weapons aside with shields.
    Last edited by Erk; 2007-05-14 at 12:03 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    The advantage is that, a shield bash uses the shield's damage, and as a secondary weapon does only 1/2 strength bonus. With it, you can essentially attempt to trade attacks so you can get another attack with your main weapon with full strength bonus. Not too useful if you expect to have several attacks of opportunity to present themselves, but creates a tactical use of your attacks of opportunity when you don't expect to get any, such as in a one on one fight where your attacks of opportunity are generally wasted. Plus the first feat was really created as a way to increase the cause of the second feat.

    As for the requirements of the first feats, they used to be a whole lot less but people were complaining that it stepped on the toes of two-handed weapons too much. To which my true opinion is, so what. Sword and board was a far superior fighting style to both two-handed and one handed anyway. I'd love to lower the cost personally.

    Did my changes to the first feats create better brevity?

    I'm open to suggestions to fix them. Also the reason they're written the way they are is that it was originally one feat, that got cut and altered into multiple feats.

    Did my changes to the first feats create better brevity?

    I also edited the feat requirements to be more up to date and less hindering
    Last edited by Wolf_Boy; 2007-05-14 at 12:53 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    I suggest for both paring them down to one feat with the prerequisites of the lower level feat. I'm tempted to say who cares about two weapon fighters... the way it is currently presented is a really silly way to fight. When, at present, everything a shield is good for can be done just as easily with a medium-level magic item, it is not the 2wf who need lovin'.
    "River" cancels eat: Food is problematic.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    So what you are suggesting is.

    Shield Deflection
    By using the shield to aggressively deflect blows you open your opponent's defenses leaving them open to powerful strikes with your melee weapon.
    Prerequisite: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
    Benefit: You can treat your one-handed weapon (as long as it could normally be wielded as a two-handed weapon) as if it were being wielded two-handed for the purpose of strength damage and power attack while using a shield in your off-hand. While using this feat you cannot use your shield to attack. You still retain your shield bonus to AC. This feat cannot be used with a buckler or tower shield.

    Each round you can designate a single opponent to not receive an attack bonus from flanking, however, this does not prevent sneak attacks from flanking by that opponent.

    and

    Shield Opening
    With a strong heave of your shield you push your opponent off guard creating a temporary opening in his defense.
    Prerequisite: Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
    Benefit: Instead of a standard shield bash, one can choose to instead attempt to throw his opponent off guard and create an opening for another attack. Make a shield bash attack as normal, but instead of causing damage with the shield bash one instead gains an attack of opportunity with their main weapon. For the purposes of this attack of opportunity the opponent is considered to be flat-footed. If one can make more than one shield bash per round they may choose to either do damage or cause another attack of opportunity. Individuals with this feat are still limited in their number of attacks of opportunity per round.

    Which were both roughly my first attempts at these feats
    Last edited by Wolf_Boy; 2007-05-14 at 01:06 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    Yeah. The only thing there that might be overpowered is Shield Opening. It could wreak havoc against an opponent who relies on their dexterity, which is why I added a saving throw into mine. Perhaps allow the aoo to be automatic, but they get a saving throw vs. flatfooted?
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    Remember, they are only flat-footed for the attack of opportunity, which requires that they hit with the shield in the first place. It's already requiring two attacks + an attack of opportunity to maybe hit a flat-footed opponent, not to mention the two-weapon fighting penalties. There are a lot of chances in there for this feat to go wrong. It's a risky venture already, especially as the class (rogue) which benefits most only has an average base attack.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    Yeah, that's a good point. leave it as-is then, it becomes a handy tactic for an opponent too damned nimble for ya.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Matthew's Avatar

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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    I don't know. It seems to me as though this last Feat is a bit on the powerful side and more useful for Fighter/Rogues than anything else, which seems a bit odd to me.
    Why not have the Shield Bash create a 'Daze' effect at low levels and a 'Stun effect' at higher levels? As is, this seems like an odd way around Two Weapon Fighting with Two Weapon Fighting as a Prerequisite (Agile Shield Fighter should almost certainly be an alternate Prerequisite).

    Also, consider making these 'Tactical Feats' [i.e. 3 benefits in 1 Feat]
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-05-14 at 09:57 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    Shield Deflection sounds a bit odd. When you use a shield you can deal more damage with your on-handed weapon?
    And what it has to do with deflection?

    Shield opening is a good one, but you need both Shield Expertise and TWF? Why don't let it just Shield Expertise? I think Sword & Fist had a feat that does that with TWF already, to hit a shield out of the way. Making the shield version disrupt an enemy's attack is an interesting option.
    But as a rule of thumb, there's no way a character should get an attack of opportunity as result of his own actions. I mean, AoO are caused when the enemy fails in his own action. Althout what you did is spend your shield bash's attacks to gain extra attacks with your main weapon.
    My suggestion is to either use the shield bash to knock the opponent's shield, or weapon, making him require a standard action to put it back in place. If you knock his shield, he needs to put it back in place or lose the shield bonus, and if you knock the weapon, he needs to put it back in place to be able to attack.

    Edit: I meant "Agile Shield Fighter" as Matthew said.
    Last edited by Roderick_BR; 2007-05-14 at 09:44 AM.

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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: New Shield Feats because shields need them

    I think Shield Opening has potential.

    I'd suggest a change, though, to deal with the AoO thing.

    Rather than give YOU an Attack of Opportunity, perhaps it could *provoke* an attack of opportunity? As in, anyone within striking distance could take advantage.

    Perhaps this would be a bit much, but if it didn't give the fighter himself an attack of opportunity, it could very nicely fit with the rank-and-file, teamwork feel that shields lack in DnD but apparently were quite strong on, historically?

    It could allow for some interesting tactics, assuming I both understand all this, and remember how things are supposed to work. If working alongside a rogue or two, they'd be getting some good free attacks. Two or more fighters, however, could effectively trade free attacks, quickly increasing the amount of damage done as a team, quite significantly?

  12. - Top - End - #12

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