Genesis Geekery

[That Lanky Bugger]

I am bored and at work. Rather than try to work the Char-Op challenge without the books on hand or try to work out the trophy for the previous Char-Op challenge without getting caught doodling in MS Paint, I'm going to do some random Geekery with Genesis. Doesn't really matter which one for the purpose of this, because both max out at a 180 foot Radius.

Alright, first! The relevant information for this data!

The formula to calculate the area of a circle: A = Pi (R^2)

Square Feet per Acre = 43560 per 1

I thought it would be interesting to try to figure out how many castings of Genesis it would take to cover a large enough area to actually form a society cut off from the world, capable of forming it's own ecology and social network. In short, I wanted to know how much XP it would take for me to start engaging in cross-breeding experiments as a player.

I decided to do a table (like I did with the Epic Seed geekery I did) which would demonstrate the gains you get from each casting and then put it in terms of how many acres each casting nets you.

Acres Table*
{table]Genesis Castings|Acreage|Gain
1|2.33|2.33
2|9.34|7.01
3|21.01|11.67
4|37.37|16.36
5|58.39|21.02
6|84.08|25.69
7|114.44|30.36
8|149.47|35.03
9|189.18|39.71
10|233.55|44.37[/table]
*all figures modified to the first two decimal places to preserve formatting and sanity

As the table shows, the gains are larger as the spell keeps getting cast. In theory, it would take at least 5 or 6 castings to get a viable micro-ecosystem in place, and this ecosystem would be dependant on magical items which cast purifying spells to keep the water potable and the air breathable. Additionally, the society would have to rely purely on staples with high yields, livestock being totally out of the question... or at least, any animal which thrives on the same sort of plant matter which humans eat. Fish would probably work, depending on the depth of any water sources and the availability of prey which could feed on available plant life. Disposal of garbage and other waste would be a problem, but one solvable through magic. A demi-plane like this would not be able to support significant numbers of people without hundreds of castings of Genesis... so let's set that aside, for now.

Likely, magic supplementing the population's resources and waste-handling would be required if it was going to form a society of any sort. If one were to pack this demi-plane as densely as Hong Kong (which is the most dense city in the world at roughly one hundred thousand people per square mile), you could fit 156 medium-sized creatures per acre. Or, to put this in terms of the chart...

Population Table*
{table]Genesis Castings|Supported Population
1|363
2|1457
3|3277
4|5829
5|9108
6|13116
7|17852
8|23317
9|29512
10|36433[/table]
*All figures rounded down

Keep in mind, the above figures are for a demi-plane which is packed, from start to finish, roughly about as dense as Hong Kong. A demi-plane such as this would require a significant amount of magical supplementation just to make habitable, let alone pleasant. It probably require quite a few Decanters of Endless Water, though a single Sphere of Annihilation would probably be sufficient to support the waste of the populace via an ad-hoc sewer system, if managed correctly... and a few Bags of Devouring would be able to handle the rest of the trash. Purify spells would be a must.

Anyway, this is the result of random boredom, folks. What do you think?

[reorith]

wow. nicely done. i'm off to go play simcityd20.

[kamikasei]

I don't see anything in the spell about this, so maybe it's defined elsewhere, but does genesis necessarily create a flat, "plain" plane? All I see specified is a radius - is it not, rather, a sphere of dirt and air? In that case, you could get some interesting effects with a half-air sphere being burrowed and tunneled out...

[Fixer]

Here is the psionic power from the SRD:

You create a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes. This power works best when manifested while you are on the Astral Plane. Manifestation of this power creates a local density fluctuation that precipitates the creation of a demiplane. At first, the fledgling plane grows in radius at a rate of 1 foot per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from the surrounding astral ectoplasm. Once the new demiplane reaches its maximum size, it doesn’t really stop growing, but its growth rate decreases to only 1 foot per week (approximately a 50-foot increase in radius per year). Once your demiplane is created, you can travel to it using astral caravan, plane shift, or some other power or permanent link that you arrange for separately.
You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This power cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). You must add these details in some other fashion if you desire. You can’t create lingering psionic effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane. Once your demiplane reaches 180 feet in radius, you can manifest this power again to gradually add another 180 feet of radius to it, and so on.

So, stone, dirt, atmosphere, water, temperature, and general shape of the terrain. Not just a plain unless that's what you want.

[Sardia]

I don't see anything in the spell about this, so maybe it's defined elsewhere, but does genesis necessarily create a flat, "plain" plane? All I see specified is a radius - is it not, rather, a sphere of dirt and air? In that case, you could get some interesting effects with a half-air sphere being burrowed and tunneled out...

I'd think your maximum livable space comes when you make the plane a series of nested spheres, with a comfortable living distance between them.
Giant spherical planar condominium, basically.

[SpiderBrigade]

Yay tables!
I'd say that to really get involved with the logistics of a Genesis-created metropolis, one would have to know more about what exactly the spell can and cannot achieve. Are we using the spell or the psionic power?

The power says that one cannot alter the Time trait of the plane - it is common to apply this restriction to the spell as well; are we? Furthermore, what about the other qualities of a plane? Can we alter how gravity works, add energy effects, etc? I would presume not, but if so it opens up some very interesting possibilities.

Meanwhile, a planar metropolis like this one shouldn't restrict itself to magic items to run its operations. How about a portal to the Elemental Plane of Water, instead of decanters? Same thing for air : set up a ventilation/sewer system leading into your Sphere of Annihilation, and enjoy constantly-refreshed air and water.

As for food, I think the answer is clearly to domesticate//subdue creatures with natural regeneration. Trolls are nice and low-level, but an ambitious city might seek to capture the mighty Tarrasque for an ever-replenished source of nutrients. Agriculture could either take place in the city itself, or in neighboring Genesis-created miniplanes, whose terrain has been created as ideal for farming. This would allow the city-plane itself to be structured ideally for supporting large populations.

As others have said, we need to figure out if the plane created is a sphere, or not. If so, I propose that the best method of preparing the plane is in fact to make it a spherical bubble of solid rock, with an adjacent plane devoted to agriculture (Lanky, do you have any figures on how many people can be fed/acre of farmland?) Then you populate the thing with dwarves. Sardia's idea of multiple nested shells is excellent: think Dyson or Pellucidar

On that note: do planes created with genesis have a SUN? Where does it fit? Is it possible that the planes are NOT a sphere, but rather a disc of material with infinite height/depth? If so, arbitrarily-tall skyscrapers are the answer. If it IS a sphere...again, where is the sun?

Edit: simued of course. Adjusted.

[Assassinfox]

Some final questions/musings: do planes you create with genesis have a SUN? Where does it fit? Is it possible that the planes are NOT a sphere, but rather a disc of material with infinite height/depth? If so, arbitrarily-tall skyscrapers are the answer. If it IS a sphere...again, where is the sun?

Could add a portal to the quasielemental plane of radiance.

... or just the plane of fire if you're not a planescape fan.

[Were-Sandwich]

A Widened Daylight spell, loads of them. That could do for lighting

[Hunter_Rose]

You could create gates or openings to the elemental planes to get most of the stuff you need (water, air, and earth).
Plants would help with the C02 scrubbing and provide food. Edible algae is a possible food sorce. There were 2 ed magic items that provided endless drink and food (everfull tankard and a bowl that would aways be full with gruel). An everfull tankard filled with water and then tipped over would continuously spew out water and would eventually produce a large body of water over time. Supposedly there is a chilling item similar to this concept that is causing the great glacier in Forgotten Realms. Another idea is a regenerating foodsorce like a cow that can regenerate it's body. You have one animal that you could keep on carving off pieces of that would eventually grow everything back. Figure how many people could survive after slaughering one well fed cow, or how large a group could survive on the stored yield of that slaughter until the cow regenerates from the uncooked head and is ready to be slaughtered again. Have one cow, one pig, one lamb, a dozen chickens, half a dozen turkeys, and 3 salmon or blue fin tunas with this property and your group now has a wide array of protien they can suppliment with grown produce.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Spider: Yield varies pretty wildly depending on the crop. I've seen reports which state that 40 bushels of Soybeans per acre is a good yield while 140 bushels of potatoes is a bad yield... but regardless, the returns are really poor for a society in which space is at an absolute premium.

I like the regeneration idea... though not the Tarrasque. Maybe instead we just have large herd animals with Cowbells of Regeneration? 1 cow's leg is enough to feed a family of four with some left over, and it'd only take an average of a minute for another to replace it. Though Hydra with Rings of Regeneration would probably be best.

The more I look at this, the more magic it'll take. *sighs*

[Sardia]

Spider: Yield varies pretty wildly depending on the crop. I've seen reports which state that 40 bushels of Soybeans per acre is a good yield while 140 bushels of potatoes is a bad yield... but regardless, the returns are really poor for a society in which space is at an absolute premium.

Fortunately, counterbalancing this is the lack of a finite growing season-- your climate can be just perfect for growing crops all year long. You can even have the perfect greenhouse if you'd like.

[Illiterate Scribe]

The arcane variant doesn't seem to have a prohibition on materials - roll on the demiplane of food, water, and precious metals!

[Sardia]

The really interesting thing about the genesis plane is that it expands exponentially-- if you're long-lived, or can hibernate or whatever for enough time, there's no real reason to repeatedly cast Genesis, just wait around until the volume balloons on its own.
The first few centuries might be relatively slow, but with volume increasing with the cube of the radius and a steadily increasing radius, it begins to get very large, very fast...and steadily faster.

Edit: You'd have to do it with the Genesis power, not spell, I (finally) note, but I think the advantage of steadily growing space would be worth the losses.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Fortunately, counterbalancing this is the lack of a finite growing season-- your climate can be just perfect for growing crops all year long. You can even have the perfect greenhouse if you'd like.

True, but even with good fertilization and crop rotation, you'll turn the best growing soil into sand if you're harvesting more than 2-3 times per year.

[kamikasei]

I'd think your maximum livable space comes when you make the plane a series of nested spheres, with a comfortable living distance between them.
Giant spherical planar condominium, basically.

A Matrioshka plane!

But would that fall under "construction" as forbidden in the spell?

Anyway, I take it there's general agreement that your demiplane gives you a spherical space of the given volume to work in?

[Sardia]

True, but even with good fertilization and crop rotation, you'll turn the best growing soil into sand if you're harvesting more than 2-3 times per year.

Once you get an old enough series of spheres, assuming you take that route, you just drop down to the next larger sphere and start again.

[kamikasei]

The more I look at this, the more magic it'll take. *sighs*

Well, the limiting factor in the plan is space, which you provide through your ridiculously powerful spell. Allowing others some access to this resource you create and control, in exchange for their aid in furnishing it with magical items, is a reasonable exchange. That's less feasible if you're determined to use it as a secret, personal refuge or laboratory.

Does Genesis say that only the original caster can add to the radius with repeated castings? If not then you could form an alliance with other casters. ("The spellcaster can..."; "...you can..."; yeah, I guess it's implied it has to be the same person each time.)

On that note: do planes created with genesis have a SUN? Where does it fit? Is it possible that the planes are NOT a sphere, but rather a disc of material with infinite height/depth? If so, arbitrarily-tall skyscrapers are the answer. If it IS a sphere...again, where is the sun?

Well, it says that you determine environmental functions, such as atmosphere and temperature. Temperature implies a source of heat (and a way to lose heat). So I'd say that, as part of the parameters to the spell, you can tell it what sort of sky and/or sun you want; and empty sky and a point light/heat source, a hemisphere of uniform light and warmth, a point at the center of the nested shells - whatever suits.

[broderickdruce]

According to my calculations assuming a spherical plane with a radius of 180' (because a 2D plane is just silly) the useable acreage is roughly 8.34/casting. The equation I used was;
Pi*d^2

d=2(r)
d=2(170)
d= 340

Pi*340^2=
Pi*115,600=
363168,11

363168,11/43560=
8.34

I reduced the r=180 to r=170 to give a spherical ''Planet'' with 10' of air around it. In theory this could be increased and probably should be, I was just going with the maximum height needed for a mediem creatures maximum reach (which is 8' as per PHB). Now my math is usually pretty bad so there may be a mistake in there.

The next option assuming a spherical dimension I don't feel like calculating but it could be a series of discs of varying size, assuming 10' of air + 10' of earth for each you could feasible have 1 every 20', or about 8 (9-1 since the top most disk would most likely be un usable) of these discs. the central most one having the acreage of the table mentioned in the origional post.

[Hunter_Rose]

Is it possible to create a plane that is a bubble of stone (a hollow sphere)? If you could figure out a way to spin it to create gravity you could open a portal to the plane of radiance in the center of this hollow sphere and create something similar to a dyson sphere, or a hollow earth with a radiance "sun" in the center. And then open other elemental portals to bring in the water and air.

[okpokalypse]

Keep in mind that you've also got to wait 180 days for each manifestation to grow to full size before you can enlarge it further, and it costs 1,000 xp.

If your DM is a push over (or you're a good manipulator), you can mechanically create and grow planes much faster through a loophole in the Psionic powers.

The key: Fission & Reality Revision.

Fission allows you to duplicate yourself, splitting your current PSP total, and imposing a 2-level penalty on the duplicate (L18 - Capable of 9th Level Powers). When you rejoin, unused PSP as well as psysical damage, ability damage and negative levels done to the duplciate merge back into the manifester.

XP costs paid do not however.

Since Genesis has a Manifesting time of 1 Week, you can't use Fission to manifest it w/ your Dupe since the duration is only 2 Minutes. You can, however, manifest Reality Revisions as a Standard Action to duplicate Genesis at a cost of 6,000 xp (5,000 for RR, + 1,000 for Genesis) to the Duplicate.

Then, if your DM is still willing to let you go nuts on the whole "Wish" type thing, use Reality Revision again to have the Genesis take 1 day to reach maturity. Total XP "Spent" should be 11,000 - and you can do this every day.

If you were to do this for 180 days (the normal time it takes to make 1 demi-plane of 180' r) you'd have a 32,400 ft Radius (Approx 6.1 Miles), or a total planar "Slice" of 3,296,246,400 Sq Ft (approx 117 Sq Miles). The volume is just over 950 Cubic Miles.

If one were to do this for a year (The time it'd take to do two normal Genesis' spells to fruition) you'd be able to, in theory, have a mini-planet inside a 12 Mile Radius Demi-Plane. Gravity could be set to come from the center of the demi-plane, and the mass inside could be 11 Miles in Radius (Leaving a mile of Sky). This would have a total Surface Area (4 Pi r^2) of approx 1,520 Sq Miles (This is 150% the square milage of the State of Rhode Island). A "Lap" around the "World" would be about 69 Miles.

Yay, Fun with Psionics!

[Were-Sandwich]

If you get to choose the gravity, then the inside of a sphere could be the best way of getting light/heat. With a small sun in the middle.

[Assassinfox]

And now we know the true story behind the Hollow World campaign setting...

[Were-Sandwich]

A Gate to the plane of fire should work for light and heat.

[factotum]

I reduced the r=180 to r=170 to give a spherical ''Planet'' with 10' of air around it. In theory this could be increased and probably should be, I was just going with the maximum height needed for a mediem creatures maximum reach (which is 8' as per PHB). Now my math is usually pretty bad so there may be a mistake in there.

Afraid there is--the radius of the planet would have to be 160', because you need 10 feet of air gap on both sides. Won't make a huge difference to the numbers, but worth bearing in mind.

[kamikasei]

Neither psionic nor spell-type Genesis say anything about determining a gravity trait; perhaps that would fall under "general shape of the terrain". You might as well say you can just set gravity as pulling "out" from the center and not worry about spin at all.

broderickduce: Planets are a horrible waste of space. A spherical plane gives you volume - why would you want to trade that for area? Hollow, layered spheres are the way to go, I think (just figure out how to illuminate/heat each; not a problem if you're not using the plane for agriculture).

[That Lanky Bugger]

broderickduce: Planets are a horrible waste of space. A spherical plane gives you volume - why would you want to trade that for area? Hollow, layered spheres are the way to go, I think (just figure out how to illuminate/heat each; not a problem if you're not using the plane for agriculture).

Awww, bugger. Now I have to back and calculate the VOLUME, too? *grumbles*

[kamikasei]

Awww, bugger. Now I have to back and calculate the VOLUME, too? *grumbles*

Well, try doing it this way. Give yourself 10-20 feet of "shell" for each layer. Give yourself one layer per casting. At the end you'll have 10 nested spheres, each with a larger internal surface area than the last. Build skyscrapers from each one to the inner shell (perspective and such would seriously mess you up on the innermost - make it a plaza or garden). Then you have a simpler calculation of area, which translates into however much superdense urban environment.

edit: Using a 20' thickness for the shells, and excluding the innermost, you get 3478 acres after the tenth casting.

[LotharBot]

the radius of the planet would have to be 160', because you need 10 feet of air gap on both sides.

Radius, not diameter. From center to edge is 170', with a 10' gap for air.

EDIT: damn, simu'ed.

Oh well. One additional point: If you go with the "layered spheres" route, your plane will be better suited to halfling types than humans. Among other things, you can make the layers shorter and still have plenty of space. I don't think it'd be a good environment for pixies, but maybe other tiny or smaller races would work...

[okpokalypse]

Neither psionic nor spell-type Genesis say anything about determining a gravity trait; perhaps that would fall under "general shape of the terrain". You might as well say you can just set gravity as pulling "out" from the center and not worry about spin at all.

You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This power cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). You must add these details in some other fashion if you desire. You can’t create lingering psionic effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane. Once your demiplane reaches 180 feet in radius, you can manifest this power again to gradually add another 180 feet of radius to it, and so on.

While it doesn't specify gravity, it's not omitted from consideration as the Temporal factor is, or the creation of constructs / life within the scope of Genesis. Since Gravity is an environmental aspect of any demi-plane (per the DMG), and it's not specified as out of bounds, one should reasonably conclude that it falls under those things which can be affected.

[broderickdruce]

Afraid there is--the radius of the planet would have to be 160', because you need 10 feet of air gap on both sides. Won't make a huge difference to the numbers, but worth bearing in mind.

Actually, since i deducted the 10' from the radius the diameter has -20' thereby giving you 10' on both sides.

broderickduce: Planets are a horrible waste of space. A spherical plane gives you volume - why would you want to trade that for area? Hollow, layered spheres are the way to go, I think (just figure out how to illuminate/heat each; not a problem if you're not using the plane for agriculture).

Technically sice roots need growing room you still need about 10' below the ''Surface'' to grow into, aswell as room for a water table. So an inverted spere would have about the same surface area as the other one. As for nesting I didnt even think about that. So you could have an inverted sphere with about 170' radius followed by a regular sphere with about 150' radius (20' of airspace for between surfaces) followed by another inverted of about 130' radius (20' for growing in both surfaces) and so-on down the line reducing the radius by 20' for each surface so 110' , 90' , 70' , 50' , 30' , 10'.

Pi*d^2

d=2(r)
d=2(170)
d= 340

Pi*340^2=
Pi*115,600=
363168,11

363168,11/43560=
8.34

Pi*300^2 = 282743,34
=6.49 acres

Pi*260^2 = 212371,66
=4.88 acres

Pi*220^2 = 152053,08
=3.49 acres

Pi*180^2 = 101787,60
= 2.33 acres

Pi*140^2 = 61575,22
= 1.41 acres

leave the rest of the room for a sun due to laziness of me. This means roughly 26,94 acres of useable land on the first casting. i dont know if following uses of the spell would double this about but i believe it would.