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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Shadow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    By that logic an elven wizard 17 is better than an elven barbarian 16 at beating things in the face with a sword, because the wizard has one more point of proficiency.
    <snip>
    The idea that both are as effective in melee is as strange as the idea that a greatsword offers just as much defense as having a shield in your off-hand instead.
    Then perhaps that's what you should have said.
    You didn't say anything about being as good as a dedicated melee class, you said "good with weapons." You did not say "as good with weapons as a dedicated melee character," and there is a HUGE difference between those two things.

    What I said was that all anyone needs to be effective in melee was proficieny in the weapon in hand and a decent appropriate attack stat.... and that remains true. There's no more scaling attack bonus, so any character can melee effectively as long as those two points are true.

    Furthermore, with the way that multiclassing works in regards to spellcasting, you can get 5 levels of Pally or Ranger for extra attack, and also get a 9th level spell slot. I wouldn't say that's "giving up a meaningful chunk" of anything.
    Last edited by Shadow; 2014-09-28 at 09:16 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Then perhaps that's what you should have said.
    You didn't say anything about being as good as a dedicated melee class, you said "good with weapons." You did not say "as good with weapons as a dedicated melee character," and there is a HUGE difference between those two things.

    What I said was that all anyone needs to be effective in melee was proficieny in the weapon in hand and a decent appropriate attack stat.... and that remains true. There's no more scaling attack bonus, so any character can melee effectively as long as those two points are true.

    Furthermore, with the way that multiclassing works in regards to spellcasting, you can get 5 levels of Pally or Ranger for extra attack, and also get a 9th level spell slot. I wouldn't say that's "giving up a meaningful chunk" of anything.
    A five level multiclass is absolutely giving up a meaningful chunk of the main class. That is 25% of the available levels, for goodness sake. Also, most campaigns stay under 10 levels, which makes a five level dip an even greater sacrifice

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rummy View Post
    A five level multiclass is absolutely giving up a meaningful chunk of the main class. That is 25% of the available levels, for goodness sake. Also, most campaigns stay under 10 levels, which makes a five level dip an even greater sacrifice
    25%? The classes are more front loaded, so that 25% of total class level is not equal to 25% of that class' abilities.
    You lose one ABI, one subclass feature, the capstone, and 9th level spells known (retaining the slot).
    You get armor, weapons, a fighting style, three (or four) base class features, a subclass feature, extra attack, and more spells prepared than you would have had as a single class, from a more varied list.
    One could argue that you're actually gaining a whole heck of a lot more than you're giving up. So no, it isn't a "meaningful chunk" of the class.
    Last edited by Shadow; 2014-09-28 at 10:07 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    The most features might be at the start of the class, but the best are last. For example, you'd want to do warlock 20 or, at least 17 for the 9th level spell.
    #YOLO DnD style

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrUberGr View Post
    The most features might be at the start of the class, but the best are last. For example, you'd want to do warlock 20 or, at least 17 for the 9th level spell.
    The 9th level slot is arguably more important than the 9th level spell known. There are a few exceptions such as wish, etc, but generally speaking as long as you're still getting 8th level spells and a 9th level slot, you're losing very little power overall.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    OR you could just use a bow and always have a hand free when you need it

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    25%? The classes are more front loaded, so that 25% of total class level is not equal to 25% of that class' abilities.
    You lose one ABI, one subclass feature, the capstone, and 9th level spells known (retaining the slot).
    You get armor, weapons, a fighting style, three (or four) base class features, a subclass feature, extra attack, and more spells prepared than you would have had as a single class, from a more varied list.
    One could argue that you're actually gaining a whole heck of a lot more than you're giving up. So no, it isn't a "meaningful chunk" of the class.
    You definitely are giving up a meaningful chunk of the main class. As you correctly point out, doing so can be worth it. You are just more of a multiclass a/b than an a with a dash of b.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    Mearls has actually answered this question a couple different times, and has said that you can sheath between casting.

    "I'd let a caster use spells unless its blatantly clear he can't get a hand free - tied up, carrying a huge object."

    https://twitter.com/mikemearls/statu...44695967858688

    Also, I think its important to remember that the verbal/somatic/material spellcasting components go entirely against the streamlined 5E game design philosophy. They are not a real balancing factor against magic, as they were in 1E and 2E. They were basically included for the sake of tradition.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    The 9th level slot is arguably more important than the 9th level spell known. There are a few exceptions such as wish, etc, but generally speaking as long as you're still getting 8th level spells and a 9th level slot, you're losing very little power overall.
    The only way for the warlock to get a 9th level spell/spellslot is via his Mystic Arcanum class feature at level 17, and it's a single spell/spellslot per day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Mearls has actually answered this question a couple different times, and has said that you can sheath between casting.

    "I'd let a caster use spells unless its blatantly clear he can't get a hand free - tied up, carrying a huge object."

    https://twitter.com/mikemearls/statu...44695967858688

    Also, I think its important to remember that the verbal/somatic/material spellcasting components go entirely against the streamlined 5E game design philosophy. They are not a real balancing factor against magic, as they were in 1E and 2E. They were basically included for the sake of tradition.
    Wow, this extremely helpfull. Thanks.
    #YOLO DnD style

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrUberGr View Post
    The only way for the warlock to get a 9th level spell/spellslot is via his Mystic Arcanum class feature at level 17, and it's a single spell/spellslot per day.
    Warlock spell progression is the exception to the rule, and shoudn't be used as an example because of it.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Valor bard forced to get War Caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Warlock spell progression is the exception to the rule, and shoudn't be used as an example because of it.
    Warlock spell progression is fine in regards to the higher level spells using arcanum, however. Warlocks don't use 9th level slots with which they can cast a lower level spell, but they do get some nice spells from which to select such as true polymorph or foresight. As far actually casting a 9th level spell, it doesn't matter if a person is a bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard when each one of them can only cast one 9th level spell per day.

    There's not a lot of difference in the high level spells cast per day in that case. At 20th level the extra 6th and 7th level spell slot on standard progression isn't necessarily better than 4 addition 5th level slots per day in the warlock capstone.

    I would still compare, but with a grain of salt. ;-)
    Last edited by Ashrym; 2014-10-02 at 01:09 PM.

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