OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

[Jaxzan Proditor]

While I know this is from an early strip, this combined with Durkon's "My mum taught me tha' I should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again. That's tha dwarven way," I kind of suspect that Durkon's mother delivered a lot of "not meant to be applicable to every situation ever" lines that young Durkon misinterpreted and internalized way more than she ever realized. Which, if my guess is right, doesn't make her a terrible mother - it makes her a regular, fallible human - er, dwarven being who's trying to raise a kid alone while and one-handed who's trying to make sure he knows how to behave but can't read her child's mind.

I think this makes a lot of sense, and I want it to be proven by the next memories.

[Sange]

One thing this shows, I think, even if Durkoff existed before possessing Durkon, is that he has absolutely no experience.

[janusmaxwell]

Just made the connection. 953, When Belkar first smelled a rat and tried to call out Durkula on it. Durk helped out with the proper spell, without being asked. A few more instances like that of "Taking the Initiative" which is something that regular Durkon had to be "re-taught" how to do, and everyone will get wise that there's someone else in Durkon's body.

A few more instances of this, with the parasite spirit not being able to see connections in Durkons memories which have/will influence his behavior which the team is aware of and he'll be outted.

[pendell]

Just made the connection. 953, When Belkar first smelled a rat and tried to call out Durkula on it. Durk helped out with the proper spell, without being asked. A few more instances like that of "Taking the Initiative" which is something that regular Durkon had to be "re-taught" how to do, and everyone will get wise that there's someone else in Durkon's body.

A few more instances of this, with the parasite spirit not being able to see connections in Durkons memories which have/will influence his behavior which the team is aware of and he'll be outted.

Unlikely. It will be seen as character development by the rest of the party.

The way I see it, it is almost impossible for the party to leap to the conclusion that Durkon's body is possessed by a malign spirit which is only PRETENDING to be him ... to know this, they are going to either need some source of extraplanar knowledge, or Durkula is going to have to drop the ruse himself. And even if he did, I believe it 99% likely that the party would ask "Why? Why is Durkon betraying us?" Instead of "That isn't Durkon."

Whatever Durkon does, and however Durkon says, it will be explained either as normal character development or due to his change of status. You can't expect a man who is solely powered by negative energy to act in exactly the same way as a normal man, any more than you can expect a man with three beers in him to act in the same way as a sober man. But it's still the same man under influence -- it's not the same as an entirely different hostile spirit hijacking his body.

I frankly don't see how any of us in the audience would have reached that conclusion if Rich hadn't explicitly rubbed our noses in it in the last book. I don't see any way that Durkula can be tricked into admitting it, so absent some source of divine revelation I don't think the party will figure it out until the penny drops.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

Unlikely. It will be seen as character development by the rest of the party.

The way I see it, it is almost impossible for the party to leap to the conclusion that Durkon's body is possessed by a malign spirit which is only PRETENDING to be him ... to know this, they are going to either need some source of extraplanar knowledge, or Durkula is going to have to drop the ruse himself. And even if he did, I believe it 99% likely that the party would ask "Why? Why is Durkon betraying us?" Instead of "That isn't Durkon."

Whatever Durkon does, and however Durkon says, it will be explained either as normal character development or due to his change of status. You can't expect a man who is solely powered by negative energy to act in exactly the same way as a normal man, any more than you can expect a man with three beers in him to act in the same way as a sober man. But it's still the same man under influence -- it's not the same as an entirely different hostile spirit hijacking his body.

I frankly don't see how any of us in the audience would have reached that conclusion if Rich hadn't explicitly rubbed our noses in it in the last book. I don't see any way that Durkula can be tricked into admitting it, so absent some source of divine revelation I don't think the party will figure it out until the penny drops.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Given that these are the OOTS forums, I suspect that a great many people would latch onto a theory about Durkon being possessed for one reason or another. And even if the comic continued exactly as it is now, minus the scenes where we actually see the spirit doing things in his head, we would still see Belkar go over the edge twice.

[Sange]

While I know this is from an early strip, this combined with Durkon's "My mum taught me tha' I should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again. That's tha dwarven way," I kind of suspect that Durkon's mother delivered a lot of "not meant to be applicable to every situation ever" lines that young Durkon misinterpreted and internalized way more than she ever realized. Which, if my guess is right, doesn't make her a terrible mother - it makes her a regular, fallible human - er, dwarven being who's trying to raise a kid alone while and one-handed who's trying to make sure he knows how to behave but can't read her child's mind.

I don't think the Saddest. Comic. Ever strip should be considered in regard as to Sigdi's personality, as Rich most likely did not have a clear image of Sigdi yet. At that point she was just a plot device.

[GigaGuess]

Spoiler

Show

Not only that, but while Durkula notices individual memories he doesn't notice connections between them. He also doesn't notice the full meaning behind them, especially when it's not of interest such as a moral lesson. Additionally while Durkula chooses what to do with Durkon's memories, Durkon can choose to reveal particular memories. Durkon can use this to communicate with Roy by showing a memory or two connected memories with a special meaning that Durkula doesn't realize.

Spoiler

Show

This is something I'm gathering here. A few things are falling into place here.
1.) Durkula's pretty easily bored. After a few "growing up" memories, he's already kinda "yadda yadda yadda"ing them, and potentially missing critical information.
2.) Durkula's lazy. He doesn't really look that far beyond memories given, so if Durkon volunteers memories, as long as it's not too easily given, he doesn't seem like he'll look a gift horse in the mouth.
3.) Durkula's not gathering/bothering with the emotional connections in the memories, and thus, isn't connecting them as a sequence of cause and effect, but rather as a series of snippets to gain information from, and finally
4.) Durkula can gain memories, but he can only go by the commentary Durkon gives.

Some WMG here, but this implies to me that Durkula can potentially vet the memories he provides to fit a narrative he wants to tell, give a bit of misleading information and potentially gain a toehold. Not much of one, and definitely only to be used once in a pretty critical moment, but something.

Also, while the speech pattern is something of note, it's not the primary thing Durkon's twigging into, as his revelation comes prior to that.

[Porthos]

Yeah, let's talk about this horrible, terrible parent for a second.

This woman, facing a decent amount of stress, has a precocious kid dancing around her when said kid accidentally causes (in her situation) incredibly valuable and necessary household items to smash to a million pieces.

What does this horrible, bad, parent do in reaction?

Well, first, she breaks out the Three Name Rule. And, even worse, snaps a small, tiny, insignificant little sentence saying look at the bad thing you've just done.

The monster.

Then, of all things, she calmly and visibly swallows her anger, and remembers that she's dealing with a kid. Her kid. The kid she loves more than anything. And so she flips on a dime to reassure him and try to impart some wisdom into him. She takes the time to comfort him and to let him know that, all things considered, this wasn't that bad. She also then encourages him to try to think of others first before doing what he thinks should be done.

Geez, when it's put that way, it's a miracle that Durkon turned out as well as he did!

What a terrible parent Sigdi turned out to be!

Spoiler: Hopefully unnecessary, but one never knows

Show

[ti'esar]

And even if the comic continued exactly as it is now, minus the scenes where we actually see the spirit doing things in his head, we would still see Belkar go over the edge twice.

That's hardly proof of anything except that the vampirized Durkon has a nasty streak, though. I think a lot of people would come to the same conclusion as Roy: that's it's basically the same as V and Belkar's old prank wars.

[Keltest]

That's hardly proof of anything except that the vampirized Durkon has a nasty streak, though. I think a lot of people would come to the same conclusion as Roy: that's it's basically the same as V and Belkar's old prank wars.

Again, this being the OOTS forums, I don't think there is a scenario out there that doesn't explicitly state that Durkon is possessed that wouldn't result in people claiming he is still old Durkon.

[Lheticus]

sic

I thought we were past this and onto "Durkon is an incurable literalist who has a hard time not applying directions given to him to ABSOLUTELY ALL POSSIBLE SITUATIONS."

It kind of makes me wonder if the prophecy was the only reason he was sent away from the Dwarven Lands. (It's been established already that that prophecy was REAL, right?)

[ti'esar]

Again, this being the OOTS forums, I don't think there is a scenario out there that doesn't explicitly state that Durkon is possessed that wouldn't result in people claiming he is still old Durkon.

Believe me, I'm well aware of the nature of the forums. I'm just skeptical of the claim that Durkon's behavior so far would get most people to think he was possessed without needing to see into his head.

Although this is all hypothetical and debating it is kind of silly, really.

[Keltest]

Believe me, I'm well aware of the nature of the forums. I'm just skeptical of the claim that Durkon's behavior so far would get most people to think he was possessed without needing to see into his head.

Although this is all hypothetical and debating it is kind of silly, really.

Yeah, it is, but silly discussions are somewhat more interesting that pointing out that Durkon is in fact not passive.

[eusticepious]

Why did Hel's Priest fail to see the similarity between the two stories? It's because he was looking for a hack-and-slash story from the slimy-frog not a moral lesson. Durkon associated the two because he views himself in a moral battle with evil and is looking for moral lessons from people he trusts.

Noticing or failing to notice similarities between events / memories is a theme Rich likes in this story (or maybe just one I like to remark on). My favorite way it has played out so far is in which party-member remembers Blackwing exists and when. Very few forum-folk commented on the similarity between
strip 179 ("Liar, Liar") and strip 674 ("The Elf who Cried Raven"). The similarity between these two strips is intentional, glaring, and part of Rich's story, how he is playing with us.

I'm eager for this narrative to resolve itself and just now learned that Rich plans for it to play out in a different context, between Durkon and Hel's high priest, strongly opposed characters in many ways.

[Bird]

Just made the connection. 953, When Belkar first smelled a rat and tried to call out Durkula on it. Durk helped out with the proper spell, without being asked. A few more instances like that of "Taking the Initiative" which is something that regular Durkon had to be "re-taught" how to do, and everyone will get wise that there's someone else in Durkon's body.

A few more instances of this, with the parasite spirit not being able to see connections in Durkons memories which have/will influence his behavior which the team is aware of and he'll be outted.

Durkon was re-taught, though. We've seen Durkon heal without being asked, snap a bunch of ents without being asked, etc. Durkula taking the initiative isn't enough to arouse suspicion--though the parasite is liable to slip in multiple ways.

[oppyu]

Unlikely. It will be seen as character development by the rest of the party.

The way I see it, it is almost impossible for the party to leap to the conclusion that Durkon's body is possessed by a malign spirit which is only PRETENDING to be him ... to know this, they are going to either need some source of extraplanar knowledge, or Durkula is going to have to drop the ruse himself. And even if he did, I believe it 99% likely that the party would ask "Why? Why is Durkon betraying us?" Instead of "That isn't Durkon."

Whatever Durkon does, and however Durkon says, it will be explained either as normal character development or due to his change of status. You can't expect a man who is solely powered by negative energy to act in exactly the same way as a normal man, any more than you can expect a man with three beers in him to act in the same way as a sober man. But it's still the same man under influence -- it's not the same as an entirely different hostile spirit hijacking his body.

I frankly don't see how any of us in the audience would have reached that conclusion if Rich hadn't explicitly rubbed our noses in it in the last book. I don't see any way that Durkula can be tricked into admitting it, so absent some source of divine revelation I don't think the party will figure it out until the penny drops.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

*cough* Large segments of the forum readership did reach that conclusion. You called us racists who failed to grasp one of the core concepts of OOTS.

[thumbprince]

I don't get the emphasis on something in the last panel

A good knock knock joke. Like the interrupting cow one.

[Reddish Mage]

Probably not.

I know, I know. and I agree!

but I feel that we are all trapped with this lame priest of hel ... in a wonderful story with great epic and interesting villains, he is a giant road block.

I have to agree the plot is being bogged down. Over the last 20 strips we have gotten an unusual proportion of strips in which only two characters are having dialogue unless you count the flashback device. The flashbacks seem pretty detached not only from the external events but also from each other without a plot (either internal to the flashbacks or a connection to the greater story) to tie them together.

Despite the Giant's protestations that this is a character-driven story, by far the majority of the comic strips have advanced the plot in some significant way since the introduction of the Linear Guild way back in 43. Fortunately, I read the last panel as a sign the flashbacks have ended and the next strip we will reach Tinkertown.

[GAAD]

Yolo memes,

I just realized something. We need to add to my list:

Durkon is slowly losing his accent.

In panel 7 of the last page, Durkon says: "Yer gonna haf ta watch me tell tha same knock-knock joke about five hunnerd times in Primary School."

About.

Not. Aboot.

Note that Durkon normally utilizes two "O"'s instead of a "U" with that word.

Durkula, the colloquial term that I shall be using in the remainder of this post to describe the vampiric spirit acting as the High Priest of Hel and currently infesting the body of the dwarf Durkon Thundershield, vocalized one word in Durkon's accent in a sentence chock full of "unaccented" Common. A panel before that, Durkon vocalized one word he used to alter due to his accent in a sentence chock full of accented words.

In addition, we (and Durkon) are aware that once all of Durkon's memories are absorbed by the vampire, Durkon will enter "eternal dormancy". To reiterate, Durkon's memories are not being shown, but absorbed. Wouldn't it make sense if his accent was being absorbed (read: taken away from him) as well?

We know that the vampire is now slowly gaining access to Durkon's memories and accent. It would be aesthetically intriguing for Durkon to slowly lose his own verbal features AS Durkula gains them.

Hashtag,
GAAD.
I owe it to you guys to put SOMETHING in white text, as per my gimmick, but I couldn't find any ideas... Hey look, is that a demonic duck of some sort?!

[Keltest]

-snip-

Theres a couple things wrong with your theory. The first is that Durkon's accent is inconsistent at best. Pointing to any given example and saying "he always says X, but here he said Y!" doesn't mean anything as far as the plot is concerned, because Rich doesn't keep a dictionary of Durkon by his desk when he writes the character.

The second flaw is that no matter what accent he spoke with, dwarvish or "standard", it would be based on his memories of learning the language. Since dormancy is closer when he is lower on memories, he would be losing the ability to speak at all, rather than with an accent, because the same things that give him an accent also give him the ability to speak.

[Kornaki]

I only just noticed the internal struggles title also refers to Roy's fight with the frog.

You may now resume your regular programming.

[TheMiningDwarf]

Yolo memes,

I just realized something. We need to add to my list:

Durkon is slowly losing his accent.

In panel 7 of the last page, Durkon says: "Yer gonna haf ta watch me tell tha same knock-knock joke about five hunnerd times in Primary School."

About.

Not. Aboot.

Note that Durkon normally utilizes two "O"'s instead of a "U" with that word.

Durkula, the colloquial term that I shall be using in the remainder of this post to describe the vampiric spirit acting as the High Priest of Hel and currently infesting the body of the dwarf Durkon Thundershield, vocalized one word in Durkon's accent in a sentence chock full of "unaccented" Common. A panel before that, Durkon vocalized one word he used to alter due to his accent in a sentence chock full of accented words.

In addition, we (and Durkon) are aware that once all of Durkon's memories are absorbed by the vampire, Durkon will enter "eternal dormancy". To reiterate, Durkon's memories are not being shown, but absorbed. Wouldn't it make sense if his accent was being absorbed (read: taken away from him) as well?

We know that the vampire is now slowly gaining access to Durkon's memories and accent. It would be aesthetically intriguing for Durkon to slowly lose his own verbal features AS Durkula gains them.

Hashtag,
GAAD.
I owe it to you guys to put SOMETHING in white text, as per my gimmick, but I couldn't find any ideas... Hey look, is that a demonic duck of some sort?!

I believe the Eternal DormancyTM the hosts of vampires experience is more because once the vampire has enough knowledge on how to get by in the world they would stop talking to the host altogether like right now seems to stage where Durkula has to keep looking in the textbook because he doesn't know the answers off the top of his head.. only the textbook is Durkon. It would be interesting but I think it's unlikely that Durkula is going to become a fusion of Durkon and himself beyond simply sharing memories.

[DaggerPen]

Yolo memes,

I just realized something. We need to add to my list:

Durkon is slowly losing his accent.

In panel 7 of the last page, Durkon says: "Yer gonna haf ta watch me tell tha same knock-knock joke about five hunnerd times in Primary School."

About.

Not. Aboot.

Note that Durkon normally utilizes two "O"'s instead of a "U" with that word.

Durkula, the colloquial term that I shall be using in the remainder of this post to describe the vampiric spirit acting as the High Priest of Hel and currently infesting the body of the dwarf Durkon Thundershield, vocalized one word in Durkon's accent in a sentence chock full of "unaccented" Common. A panel before that, Durkon vocalized one word he used to alter due to his accent in a sentence chock full of accented words.

In addition, we (and Durkon) are aware that once all of Durkon's memories are absorbed by the vampire, Durkon will enter "eternal dormancy". To reiterate, Durkon's memories are not being shown, but absorbed. Wouldn't it make sense if his accent was being absorbed (read: taken away from him) as well?

We know that the vampire is now slowly gaining access to Durkon's memories and accent. It would be aesthetically intriguing for Durkon to slowly lose his own verbal features AS Durkula gains them.

Hashtag,
GAAD.
I owe it to you guys to put SOMETHING in white text, as per my gimmick, but I couldn't find any ideas... Hey look, is that a demonic duck of some sort?!

Interesting theory, but as someone who has spent a ludicrously long time helping out over at the Transcription of the Stick project, and who has, due to the Durkon translation policy, had to pick through his accent a few zillion times, I have to say - Durkon's accent is ludicrously inconsistent. Don't read too much into it. If there's a word Durkon has said more than once, I can probably find two separate pronunciations of it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Durkon is boring and so is his back story.

This fell to the level of pointless filler for me after the first one or two Durkon-Durkula interactions.

[Pyron]

I think you misunderstand me. Im not saying it didn't affect him deeply, because it obviously did. What i'm saying is that his mother didn't intend for it to affect him that deeply, and that it wasn't an often repeated lesson. If it had been, there wouldn't have been a disconnect between the two memories we see at all; Durkon would have recognized the connection between what happened and how he was raised a long time ago (shortly after the frog incident, for example) rather than just now.

I'd argue that the lesson was repeated enough. Every weekly dinner party, he'd watched his mother clean up the place by herself and that same instinct to help was there. Only now it's suppressed by the doubt that his mother planted in his mind.

It reached the point where Durkon just stood there while another person was about to be eaten alive. It also explains his inaction on the Azurite refugee fleet, when his best friend was having a mental breakdown, but wouldn't do anything because V never asked for help.

Also, I would not assume that Durkon should have recognized the connection earlier. If this lesson scared him to the point of inaction when it came to a life-or-death situation, then it's not something we can assume is fixable with a quick 'oh yeah!'. Plus, he did not have a reason to think about it back then when Roy's pep talk suggested that Durkon's just not used to working in a team.

And she doesn't go straight to "I'm na helpless". She says "I can get 'em meself", which is an absolutely reasonable and polite way of refusing help. The yelling only starts when Durkon actually grabs the dishes she is holding, which is not acceptable behavior.

If she felt that grabbing the dishes was unacceptable, then she could have said "Don't grab the bowls in my hand" or "Your toppling the dishes" or "You'll hurt yourself" (because the dishes might fall and smack him in the face), all these phrases would have been more common in that situation.

Instead, in her anger, she screams that she's not helpless. Those are the first words that come out of her mouth, and it says a lot about her. It shows that deep down, she's a prideful woman who feels the need to accomplish everything on her own. Next, consider her cultural upbringing. Dying in a heroic battle is noble, and those who don't die in this fashion are dishonored. Perhaps, deep down, Sigdi fears that dying at an old age with her injury will have her judged in the afterlife as being dishonorable in the afterlife. Unless she can always prove that she's never helpless. Even when the only person in the room is her impressionable child.

This doesn't make her a monster. But it shows us how deep she's flawed and the impact it has on both her and her son. It shows that at times her pride overrides her parenting instincts. We also see that it's Durkon who paid the price during the toad battle.

Furthermore, if we accept that her pride and fear of a dishonorable death as a significant influence on Durkon's development and as a secret catalyst for his prophecy and adventure career. Then it hints of the ultimate tragedy that Sigdi, inadvertently, sacrificed her son's soul to save her own. It's a stretch, but quite thematic.

Spoiler: Minor 'Origin of the PCs' spoiler

Show

Finally, if we want to keep up with the arc's theme on self-fulfilling prophecies, then think about this. Child!Durkon never asked for help, but Sigdi helped him and made things worse. Ironic if you think about it.

[Keltest]

I'd argue that the lesson was repeated enough. Every weekly dinner party, he'd watched his mother clean up the place by herself and that same instinct to help was there. Only now it's suppressed by the doubt that his mother planted in his mind.

It reached the point where Durkon just stood there while another person was about to be eaten alive. It also explains his inaction on the Azurite refugee fleet, when his best friend was having a mental breakdown, but wouldn't do anything because V never asked for help.

Also, I would not assume that Durkon should have recognized the connection earlier. If this lesson scared him to the point of inaction when it came to a life-or-death situation, then it's not something we can assume is fixable with a quick 'oh yeah!'. Plus, he did not have a reason to think about it back then when Roy's pep talk suggested that Durkon's just not used to working in a team.

Again, missing my point. Durkon clearly internalized it, that was the whole point of the latest strip, but Durkon's Mother did not regularly repeat the lesson. Had it been something she repeated at the end of every week when he tried to help, he would have quickly realized how much it affected him, because he had so much outright exposure to the lesson.

If she felt that grabbing the dishes was unacceptable, then she could have said "Don't grab the bowls in my hand" or "Your toppling the dishes" or "You'll hurt yourself" (because the dishes might fall and smack him in the face), all these phrases would have been more common in that situation.

Instead, in her anger, she screams that she's not helpless. Those are the first words that come out of her mouth, and it says a lot about her. It shows that deep down, she's a prideful woman who feels the need to accomplish everything on her own. Next, consider her cultural upbringing. Dying in a heroic battle is noble, and those who don't die in this fashion are dishonored. Perhaps, deep down, Sigdi fears that dying at an old age with her injury will have her judged in the afterlife as being dishonorable in the afterlife. Unless she can always prove that she's never helpless. Even when the only person in the room is her impressionable child.

This doesn't make her a monster. But it shows us how deep she's flawed and the impact it has on both her and her son. It shows that at times her pride overrides her parenting instincts. We also see that it's Durkon who paid the price during the toad battle.

Furthermore, if we accept that her pride and fear of a dishonorable death as a significant influence on Durkon's development and as a secret catalyst for his prophecy and adventure career. Then it hints of the ultimate tragedy that Sigdi, inadvertently, sacrificed her son's soul to save her own. It's a stretch, but quite thematic.

Spoiler: Minor 'Origin of the PCs' spoiler

Show

Finally, if we want to keep up with the arc's theme on self-fulfilling prophecies, then think about this. Child!Durkon never asked for help, but Sigdi helped him and made things worse. Ironic if you think about it.

I think you and I have a different definition of "scream". She didn't even appear to raise her voice. And given that Durkon's expressed motivations for helping her were that he had two arms to carry dishes with, it is still absolutely an appropriate thing to say to get him to stop and to show that his "help" is absolutely unappreciated.

edit: for that matter, she did tell him to let go before saying that she wasn't helpless.

[Catticus]

946 - "He struggles within me, but he cannot resist providing me with his memories when I call upon them. He is powerless to influence our plans."

948 - "The sooner I absorb all your memories, the sooner I can stop talking to you."

954 - "I've seen enough of your memories to know how much you value the Rules."

957 - "Sorry! The memory you searched for could not be found."

962 - "So, what, now you see something and a memory just pops up?"

930 - "Don't look at me like that, there were like a ton of hints on this one."

I'd wager my last stash (of catnip, you degenerate) that the answer's in the strip. If only I understood Dwarven. Or Giant.

[ORione]

Instead, in her anger, she screams that she's not helpless.

What about Sigdi in the second panel looks angry or scream-y to you?

[Pyron]

What about Sigdi in the second panel looks angry or scream-y to you?

Perhaps 'angry' was not the right word I was looking. So, I will concede on that point.

Still, out of the things she could have said, out of all the things that could go wrong, she chooses to remind Durkon that she not helpless over other, more reasonable, warnings. I still say that's significant.

[unbjorn]

Also, I'm a little confused with Durkon's endgame here.

He he doesn't necessarily have one yet, but now has some information for how he can use the HPOH's weaknesses. One goal would be to tell the OOTS that he isn't really himself right now. For example, he might string together selective memories of Shojo, Nale masquerading as Elan, and Tarquin, all in order to make a connection about people who aren't what they appear to be on the surface. And so on, Durkon (like this forum) has lots of free time to work out all kinds of scenarios along these lines.