Let's Remake: The Monk [3.5]

[Teapot Salty]

HELLO EVERYBODY! It may be known (or maybe I think I'm much more famous then I really am ) that I love community projects. So, I want to remake the monk, and I want to do it right. I'd prefer if we got none of the "just use pathfinder" stuff, 'cause that defeats the purpose, and stifles creativity. (By all means use PF, just don't copy paste) Ideally a mid-high tier 3 class is good. Something that can find a use in a party of unoptimized casters (kinda like V) but not blow a party away in a no magic game. (Or should they get magic????)

We are making the class from scratch, with only name and fluff carrying over.

Structure:
1st poster: Saves and BAB
2nd: Hit dice and skills/skill points
3rd and every poster thereafter: Features.

LET'S MAKE A GREAT CLASS EVERYBODY!

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Hit dice1d8

Skills: 6+int modifier.
Add autohypnosis, spellcraft and lucid dreaming to the list.

Base Attack Bonus	Fortitude	Reflex	Will	Special
+0	+2	+2	+2	Ki Pool Unyielding Strike Bonus Feat
+1	+3	+3	+3	Bonus Feat
+2	+3	+3	+3
+3	+4	+4	+4
+3	+4	+4	+4
+4	+5	+5	+5	Bonus Feat
+5	+5	+5	+5
+6/+1	+6	+6	+6
+6/+1	+6	+6	+6
+7/+2	+7	+7	+7	Bonus Feat
+8/+3	+7	+7	+7
+9/+4	+8	+8	+8
+9/+4	+8	+8	+8	Bonus Feat
+10/+5	+9	+9	+9
+11/+6/+1	+9	+9	+9
+12/+7/+2	+10	+10	+10
+12/+7/+2	+10	+10	+10	Bonus Feat
+13/+8/+3	+11	+11	+11
+14/+9/+4	+11	+11	+11
+15/+10/+5	+12	+12	+12

Ki Pool: Monks get an amount of Ki points equal to their Monk Levels and PRCS + CON. This refreshes every day.

Unyielding Strike: The Monk may make another iterative attack at any time with a -5 penalty on top of the normal penalty for iterations (So it can go +10/+5/0 or such). This costs 1 ki.

Bonus Feats:At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list:

Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Versatile Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Diehard, and Throw Anything.

At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list:

Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Karmic Strike, Snap Kick, and Mobility.

At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list:

Improved Critical, Snatch Arrows, Sun School, Elusive Target, Robilar's Gambit, and Spring Attack.

A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
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Spoiler: Off topic

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Should I make these for the other classes in need of them? I.E Fighter, barbarian, ranger, paladin, and rogue?

[nonsi]

.
Go with the traditional 3/4 BAB and all good saves.
To compensate vs. full melees, give them Wis-bonus to attack at low-mid levels and Wis-bonus to damage at mid-high levels.

[spikeof2010]

Ki Pool: Monks get an amount of Ki points equal to their Monk Levels and PRCS + CON. This refreshes every day.

Unyielding Strike: The Monk may make another iterative attack at any time with a -5 penalty on top of the normal penalty for iterations (So it can go +10/+5/0 or such). This costs 1 ki.

[Extra Anchovies]

What if, instead of the normal -2 Flurry of Blows, we give them something akin to the Maho-Bujin's Crimson Road?

Monks can make more melee attacks in a round than most other characters. For every three full points of base attack bonus above 1 that the Monk possesses, they gain an iterative attack at a cumulative -3 penalty. Thus, a 1st-level monk has one attack at a +0 bonus, a 7th-level monk has two attacks at +5 and +2, and a 20th-level monk has five attacks at +15/+12/+9/+6/+3.

Sure, that's one more than a 20th-level full-BAB gets, but that last attack at effective BAB of +3 won't matter much.

Also, I suggest giving them +Wis to hit and damage in addition to +Str. Maybe they gain Wisdom to AC at 1st, Wisdom to hit at 5th, Wisdom to damage at 10th, and Wisdom to all strength- and dexterity-based skill checks at 15th? Making them less MAD is the first step towards making them playable.

ETA:

Spoiler: Off Topic

Show

Not sure how you'd go about a fighter fix without making them very removed from the fighter; they're so inherently linear that they'll fall behind regardless. Porting over the Pathfinder fighter to 3.5 should work if you want to make them more interesting.

Barbarians don't really need the fix, IMO.

Rangers and Paladins have had lots of fixes/rewrites made already, too many for me to link. This sort of thing works best with downright terrible classes like the Monk.

[Seerow]

Sure, that's one more than a 20th-level full-BAB gets, but that last attack at effective BAB of +3 won't matter much.

Right now a 20th level monk gets:

+15/+15/+15/+10/+5

You are suggesting changing that to:

+15/+12/+9/+6/+3


Why on earth do you think the most important thing a monk fix needs is a nerf to one of its iconic features?

[Extra Anchovies]

Why on earth do you think the most important thing a monk fix needs is a nerf to one of its iconic features?

Well, I'm also a very strong proponent of giving them Full BAB, but it's already been fixed at average (despite their being a purely martial class that can't really rely on magic weapons to grant attack bonuses). With full BAB they'd get eight or so attacks. The carbon-copy of Crimson Road was also sort of a response to the Unyielding Strike ability, next to which it is more useful. (this monk fix doesn't currently have FoB)

[nonsi]

Well, I'm also a very strong proponent of giving them Full BAB, but it's already been fixed at average (despite their being a purely martial class that can't really rely on magic weapons to grant attack bonuses). With full BAB they'd get eight or so attacks. The carbon-copy of Crimson Road was also sort of a response to the Unyielding Strike ability, next to which it is more useful. (this monk fix doesn't currently have FoB)

1. I don't see the gain from Flurry of Misses.
2. So many dice rolls can't possibly do good to gameflow.
3. Wis-bonus (by far the Monk's number one ability score) to attack & damage easily evens up the Monk with the rest of the melees.

[nonsi]

.
Ok, since step #2 was skipped, I'll suggest the following:

Skills:
====
Use the core Monk's class skills and add Autohypnosis (XPH, p.36), Lucid Dreaming (MotP, p.203) and Spellcraft (the latter will be relevant for self-enhancement class feature somewhere along the way).
Give it 6 + Int-mod skill points per level (just because monks are supposed to be far more self-sufficient than the average class)

HD: d8
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Monks could acquire DR and/or self healing capabilities with level progression (and/or maybe Defensive Roll, applicable Wis-bonus times per day), which should balance this out nicely.

[Extra Anchovies]

.
Ok, since step #2 was skipped, I'll suggest the following:

Skills:
====
Use the core Monk's class skills and add Autohypnosis (XPH, p.36), Lucid Dreaming (MotP, p.203) and Spellcraft (the latter will be relevant for self-enhancement class feature somewhere along the way).
Give it 6 + Int-mod skill points per level (just because monks are supposed to be far more self-sufficient than the average class)

HD: d8
=====
Monks could acquire DR and/or self healing capabilities with level progression (and/or maybe Defensive Roll, applicable Wis-bonus times per day), which should balance this out nicely.

Hm. I like these suggestions; taking the monk more towards a skilled-type than a martial-type would be nice. I retract my poorly-thought-out suggestion for alternate FoB, but still maintain that full BAB should be a thing (because their damage output is still going to be quite a bit lower than the average power attack THF build).

[copycatcat]

Bonus Feats:At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list:

Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Versatile Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Diehard, and Throw Anything.

At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list:

Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Karmic Strike, Snap Kick, and Mobility.

At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list:

Improved Critical, Snatch Arrows, Sun School, Elusive Target, Robilar's Gambit, and Spring Attack.

A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Just taking the PF monk feat mechanic and splashing on lots more feats.

[spikeof2010]

Sap Ki: A 10th level monk may forgo doing lethal damage and may do subdual damage instead, regaining 1 ki for every 6 nonlethal damage done.