The Devout and the Dead: a guide to Clerics

[Yorrin]

I'm having more difficulty with the fighter/ barbarian and feel like I spend an exorbitant amount of slots picking him up. I guess this is more of a play style issue but I'm not sure how to fix it because he has to be in melee range hit.

Sounds like you want to be level 11 and gain access to Heal. Few things patch up a Barbarian as quickly and efficiently. Until then, only pick him up mid-fight if he's unconscious (assuming the enemies aren't going to knock him down again before his next turn). Also consider debuffs like Bane to minimize enemy damage.

[Yorrin]

Added the VGtM (Volo's Guide to Monsters) races! I'm interested on hearing your opinions on my ratings.

[Arentak]

High Elf for Green Flame Blade synergizes well with the +1d8/2d8 abilities of clerics.

[Theodoxus]

Sounds like you want to be level 11 and gain access to Heal. Few things patch up a Barbarian as quickly and efficiently. Until then, only pick him up mid-fight if he's unconscious (assuming the enemies aren't going to knock him down again before his next turn). Also consider debuffs like Bane to minimize enemy damage.

Agreed.

Also, there was one time I was playing a barbarian, and being the big scary orc, the bad guys focused fire on me, knocking me out within a few rounds. The party bard cast Polymorph, popping me back up as a great ape. I had a few more HP in that form, even if the AC was crap. It did allow me to keep pounding away for a few more rounds, until we finally beat the encounter - not sure if Poly is an option, but I definitely recommend it if it is.

That said, last time I played a life cleric a few weeks ago, I ran into a conundrum - having Spiritual Weapon active and trying to scrape up unconscious companions. Healing Word is amazing, probably more for its 60' range than the bonus action cast. I really kinda wish the BA was optional... sacrificing my SW to cast HW followed by Sacred Flame against a lowish AC but Dex proficient target made me cry a little. However, the party has learned that we're not playing WoW - I'm not going to top off their HP mid fight. If anything, I might use Channel to top off to half HPs before I let them drift into lala land...

It's a far better use of my actions generally...

[casetruth]

I am curious on how do you rate the unearthed arcana domains for the cleric, is that coming out soon? Forge and grave calls my attention

[Yorrin]

I am curious on how do you rate the unearthed arcana domains for the cleric, is that coming out soon? Forge and grave calls my attention

This guide does not cover Unearthed Arcana, since it is not officially published material. That being said Forge is a strong tank/buffer Domain, Grave is a strong debuffer/damage domain, and Protection is... underwhelming by comparison.

[Dudu]

Also, I'd like to add I don't like Grave domain too much, flavorwise. We already have Death domain, so Grave domain might sound repetitive. It starts to sound a lot like 3.5 domains where you have a lot of flavor overlapping options, including domains.

But I still can consider it's domain in the way it's aproached. Grave domain seems to deal with death like Wee Jas would (my favorite GreyHawk goddess, btw). Death domain fits more Nerull philosophy. So, even though we have some flavor overlapping here, which can be annoying, it isn't nearly as ridiculous as 3.5 had.

I just hope they can keep the flavor overlapping in this level, instead of going nuts like 3.5 did.

Forge and Protection looks like flavourful adictions, though. Mostly for a dwarven cleric perspective.


This being a mechanical focused thread instead of flavor, I'll post my opinions on the domains:

Forge: This one has dwarven written all over it. Quite tanky. It has some bonuses that are heavy dependent on how often you find magical items in your campaign. The default notion is that magic items are much rarer in 5.0 than 3.5, for example, so most of the time you would be fine with this domain.

Extra points for having Animate Objects as domain spell, one of the most fun spells in the edition.

Grave: Sounds underwhelming. Some bonus spells are interesting, like vampiric touch and spells you would like prepared anyway, such as revivify and deathward. Keeper of Souls is a nice cap that can increase party survivability significantly, but so far in lvl 17.

Protection: Tanky, somehow. It's the most support-like of the three. He has a feature that is alike the shield fighting style, which is handy. His channel divinity looks floppy. His bonus spells include resilient sphere and wall of force.

But I think the current options avaible in PHB, DMG and Sword Coast range from "as strong as" (like Life and War domain) to much stronger (Storm and Arcana, for example). Except Trickery domain, which seems to be doomed as the weakest.

[CaptAl]

I've a conundrum with my level 7, soon to be 8, AL rules, Life Cleric of Lathander. He's sporting Plate +2 and a Mace of Terror with the Warcaster feat. Due to my 22 AC, and seemingly endless supply of healing, I usually play him as a front-liner/tank. My wisdom is already 18, so I'm thinking of picking up either Sentinal for my level 8 ASI, or taking a 2 point STR bump.

Our group has irregular attendance. The other front line combatants are a War Cleric (misses games regularly), a Champion 2 hander Fighter (misses more often than not), and a Bladesinger/Rogue (never misses a game). We have one BM Fighter Sharpshooter (rarely misses a session), and an Evoker/Bard (pretty reliable).

Considering all of the above, which should I go with, Sentinal (to save the Archer's tail), or STR (to get some more reliable damage)?

[Dudu]

No gauntlets of ogre strenght or some of the sort? Those are merely uncommon.

Mostly, if you aren't being slowed down by armor, I would consider bumping Str a poor investment. Hitting can be made more frequent with spells (like Bless) and advantage. Damage isn't your strongest point, but by lvl 8, you are adding 1d8 radiant, which is handy.

Sentinel, however, will make you a more capable tank. Capping the 20 in Wis is also a good idea. It doesn't net you more spells, like previous editions, but interacts with a lot of your spellcasting nonetheless. Including the concentration free Spiritual Weapon. That you can cast using a lvl 4 for 2d8+Wis force damage, with bonus action. That alone will bump your damage output significantly.
Another very interesting feat is Magic Initiate. It let you grab 2 cantrips and a lvl 1 spell. Magic Initiate wizard and you can have Greenflame Blade, another cantrip and Find Familiar, for example. Remember the "getting advantage to hit" I mentioned earlier? A familiar can do it rather cheaply. Or it can help others too while you focus on buffs and healing.

[TheFallen]

Thanks for the great guide!

[Yorrin]

Considering all of the above, which should I go with, Sentinal (to save the Archer's tail), or STR (to get some more reliable damage)?

Dudu brings up some great points. I'd say overall Sentinel will probably be your best bet. The Str bump isn't bad, it will just have a smaller impact on gameplay.

Thanks for the great guide!

You're Welcome!

[CaptAl]

Snip

Thanks for answering. Our DM rolls randomly for loot, so I'm not counting on any specific item. I think I'm going to go with the Sentinal feat as I rarely have a use for my reaction at all. Our Bladesinger/Rogue uses his familiar and the SCAG cantrips, so I'm trying to avoid stepping on his toes too much, and our Evoker/Bard loves faerie fire making advantage pretty easily obtained.

Snip

Thanks again for doing such an awesome job with this guide. It's been incredibly helpful for a Cleric Newb like myself.

[Zene]

First of all, great guide, thanks Yorrin!

Second, a question on Divine Intervention:

Divine Intervention: I can't even begin to rate this, since it's SO dependent on your DM. More of a plot device than an actual class feature.

The description in the book suggests the effect of any cleric spell or any domain spell would be appropriate. Seems like even a rather restrictive DM would be cool using it in that way. So, it could be a good opportunity to get access to a higher-level spell than you currently have; and/or, something that you don't want to spend the gold (hero's feast), the time (hallow), or the concentration on.

I'm curious, have folks successfully used it in this way? If so, what spells do you find most useful?

[Theodoxus]

First of all, great guide, thanks Yorrin!

Second, a question on Divine Intervention:



The description in the book suggests the effect of any cleric spell or any domain spell would be appropriate. Seems like even a rather stingy DM would be cool using it in that way. So, it could be a good opportunity to get access to a higher-level spell than you currently have; and/or, something that you don't want to spend the gold (hero's feast), the time (hallow), or the concentration on.

The Life Cleric in my Rise of Tiamat game used it to call upon his god (Illmater) to slap Tiamat back into her portal. Between his plea and OOC request, it was so amazing, I let it happen despite him rolling a 19 on the percentile.

I agree with Yorrin - I don't think any DM I play with would have done the same... it's a very DM dependent ability.

[Dudu]

The Life Cleric in my Rise of Tiamat game used it to call upon his god (Illmater) to slap Tiamat back into her portal. Between his plea and OOC request, it was so amazing, I let it happen despite him rolling a 19 on the percentile.

I agree with Yorrin - I don't think any DM I play with would have done the same... it's a very DM dependent ability.

At least I'm glad to see it opens opportunity to epic scenes.

But, indeed, for a thread discussing the mechanic of cleric. That particular class feature is almost impossible to rate.

[Larpus]

Recently started as a Cleric (first time with this), going from level 1 to how far as we can go.

There was one thing that I couldn't quite get the hang of but I don't think deserves a full thread:

How many spell slots do you guys "reserve" for a Healing Word?

I guess that on the overall I was a bit surprised by how little casting can actually be done in 5e low level, but still would like to know your opinions.

[Wish]

I just wanted to ask about revivify in the Life Domain spells list.
Thats great you don't need to prepare the spell. However it does still require a diamond worth 300gp to cast right?

[MeeposFire]

I just wanted to ask about revivify in the Life Domain spells list.
Thats great you don't need to prepare the spell. However it does still require a diamond worth 300gp to cast right?

Yes you still need to supple components. It is just a free spell prepared and one you would likely prepare anyway.

[DMJ1]

Hill Dwarf: My personal pick for most builds is the very first race in the book. It has perfect ability scores and bonus hitpoints to boot. Darkvision and resistance to poison are both handy, and you even get a free tool proficiency to boot.
High Elf: High elf isn't a bad race overall, just bad a being a Cleric, especially when compared to Wood Elves- who work with the same builds, but better.
Wood Elf: Speaking of Wood Elves, they have the best stats in the book for a Dex build, and their natural ability at Stealth mixed with their high speed is useful in a variety of situations. Free proficiency in perception combined with Darkvision and a high Wis score means you'll likely be the best at spotting things, too.

I like the guide of the original poster, but I was wondering one thing about the races:

I am currently creating a pure Wisdom cleric (no weapons) and I was wondering about the best race to choose (from a pure numbers perspective that is). When comparing the attribute scores I come up with something like this:

Hill Dwarf: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Half Elf: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10 (so exactly the same as Hill Dwarf)
Wood Elf: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 10 (this seems weird to me)

So from the pure attributes I would conclude that Hill Dwarf and Half Elf are on par and Wood Elf clearly wastes one point in Int (or alternatively Cha).

Comparing the racial bonuses of Hill Dwarf and Half Elf you get pretty meh stuff concerning skills, tools and languages, while the Half Elf gives you two skills of your choice and one bonus language. Advantages and saving throws are on par I would say. One hit point increase per level is a nice addition for the Hill Dwarf though. Weapon proficiencies of the Dwarf for a non melee class I would consider as irrelevant. I would say both races are pretty much equal concerning their potential.
Of course, it seems weird putting +2 racial increase in a attribute score of 8, but it's not as if it's forbidden or something

The Wood Elf though has a weird attribute score table I think. Can the racial treats compensate for that? Perception skill is great, but you can get it (and one more) from the Half Elf as well. Speed, hiding, and weapon proficiencies are nice but for a pure Wisdom build not really that important. Maybe the longbow skill could come in handy for the occasional ranged attack, but otherwise?!

All three have Darkvision. I'm not sure how important the speed will be, the Wood Elf is clearly superior compared to the Dwarf.

Of course it is always a question of personal preference and how you want to play your role. I am just wondering if I am missing something. My last D&D experience was 2nd Ed., so it's been a while

[Yorrin]

How many spell slots do you guys "reserve" for a Healing Word?

I typically only keep one "in reserve." And even then I'm willing to spend it if I think I'll get a rest soon.

I just wanted to ask about revivify in the Life Domain spells list.
Thats great you don't need to prepare the spell. However it does still require a diamond worth 300gp to cast right?

Yeah, you still need the diamond. Unfortunately.

Hill Dwarf: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Half Elf: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10 (so exactly the same as Hill Dwarf)
Wood Elf: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 10 (this seems weird to me)

Unless I did my math wrong your Wood Elf actually should have an 8 Cha? In any case the bonus HP and poison resistance from the Dwarf wins me over to them. But depending on your game and/or party composition speed could possibly be an issue. Really though, it pretty much does come down to what you want to roleplay.

[DMJ1]

Unless I did my math wrong your Wood Elf actually should have an 8 Cha? In any case the bonus HP and poison resistance from the Dwarf wins me over to them. But depending on your game and/or party composition speed could possibly be an issue. Really though, it pretty much does come down to what you want to roleplay.

I already put in racial adjustments in all three cases. So for the Wood Elf it is

Str 8, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 10

thus, 0 + 4 + 9 + 3 + 9 + 2 = 27.

You could put the point in Dex and get maybe the Resilient (Dexterity) feat later, but that might be also somewhat useless, since you would not benefit from the AC in medium armor (or you start of with 11 Dex unadjusted and get the feat later and put two more points in Int for a little better skill proficiencies).

I think both, the Dwarf and the Half Elf, are very good, but for a pure wisdom build I think the Wood Elf is not very well suited.

I just felt the Half Elf is not getting the credit it deserved, at least for a pure wisdom build

[Theodoxus]

Volo's has the Firbolg, which is +2 Wis and +1 Str... though the rest of the attributes are kinda meh. And +2 still nets you, at best, a 17 with point buy... though the +1 Str helps with heavy armor, if you'd rather go that route and drop dex...

[SharkForce]

i think charisma is interesting for a cleric because once you pick up a few core spells, you can probably start looking at multiclassing... and sorcerer is frankly amazing for a pure spellcaster :P

[Alatar]

Hi there. I'm working on a Death Cleric/Fighter for a campaign that is still months away from kicking off. I like building characters. I used your guide as a reference, which was helpful. I like hearing other people's points of view.

I've noticed over the years of playing D&D that, while I have my own insights, I also have my own blindspots. For example, I recall reading the Summoner Wizard in 3e and thinking, "This is crap. The CR of these creatures is always so low." Eventually, though, I got to see someone play a summoner, and it was a revelation. Seeing all those critters tying up the middle so effectively taught me a lesson. The Summoner wasn't crap. I had just lacked the imagination to grasp the possibilities.

I read through this thread tonight. (Don't I know how to have a good time.) I noticed that several people have pitched their cleric build ideas and asked for feedback, and that you have been generous enough with your time to respond. If you don't mind, I'd like to trespass on your courtesy and make my own pitch.

I start with a level of Fighter. Here he is at level 2:

Human (variant) Fighter 1 / Death Cleric 1 HP 21
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 8
Fighting Style: Defense
Medium armor, Shield AC 19
Feat at 1st: Mobile

The progression after level 2:
Cleric levels 2 - 6, Resilient: Wisdom at Cleric 4 (Char 5)
Fighter 2
Cleric 7 - 8, +2 Wisdom at Cleric 8 (Char 10)
Fighter 3 - 4, Battle Master, +2 Wisdom at Fighter 4 (Char 12)
Cleric 9 - 16, +2 Dexterity at Cleric 12 (Char 16), War Caster or Alert at Cleric 16 (Char 20)

Session 1 of every campaign is a bit of a killing field with my DM. Level 1 is very swingy and he feels more at ease with taking liberties with a bunch of fresh characters. How attached can we be? So far, over 2 5E campaigns, we're 2 for 2 in session 1 PC deaths. That's one reason why I'm taking Mobile rather than Resilient: Wisdom at level 1. The other reason is Mobile will be more fun.

I see this guy focusing on touch spells for healing, buffing and damage. The domain channel divinity feature, Touch of Death, is a melee attack. Mobile helps him dance around the battlefield. The 19 AC, Con 16, Con proficiency & Second Wind helps him function well in melee. Action Surge lets him be a little explody or really dish the healing in a tight spot.

Wisdom starts unusually low at 15. Counter-intuitive builds are a joy unto themselves. It's a MAD build. I get Wisdom to 20 at level 12. By level 5 he's proficient in Strength, Con and Wisdom.

Offensively, he's more of a melee fighter in the first half, more of a melee caster in the second half. Early on, spells go to healing and not much else. It will be a party of 7 and I'll be the only cleric. We may have a bard or a paladin, but if they wanted to heal folks, they'd have been clerics.

I'll be taking some leader-ish / 4e warlord flavored battle master maneuvers, Commander's Strike & Maneuvering Attack, as well as Fleet of Foot. More dancing. That gives me some tactical tools, fiddly bits. I enjoy battlefield tactics. I like to dance.

The 4th level of fighter gets me to Wisdom 20 at 12th level rather than 15th, but at the cost of 9th level spells and a sweet domain feature: Improved Reaper. An expensive trade-off. I do tend to discount 20th level goodies. Everyone is eyeing the exits at that point of the campaign. Of course, that's how I originally reasoned myself to Fighter 3. It's a slippery slope.

So that's my guy, so far. Sorry for running on so long about it. I'd be interested in hearing your impressions. And anyone else's, for that matter.

[Theodoxus]

I'm confused by your armor notation... you say Medium armor (yet the Fighter level grants heavy) but your AC calculation is based on a base 16 armor, so chain mail? Which would be heavy...

Other than that, it looks solid. You're covering your bases - it's a little sad that you have to spend so many ASI on attribute increases... Shield Master, as a poor mans Dex save boost would fit well.

You mention that the campaigns typically start out particularly brutal - do they also typically run to 20? You might be feeling a little underpowered in the 5-10 level range when others are casting powerful magics and you're basically running around hitting things once, with little additional damage or rider effects until 10th level...

With 7 players, from my experience, you don't typically get to 'shine' very often, so having a solid concept and knowing up front that your character is built to complement rather than be showy helps.

[Yorrin]

Death Cleric/Fighter

Welcome to the thread!

It sounds like you've got a pretty good idea of what you want to do, and it sounds like it's going to be pretty fun. There are a couple of things that raise a flag for me, though. The first, and perhaps most important, is how late you wait to get Warcaster. For a melee mage that feat would easily be my first level pick, deadly DM or not. The second, which you yourself pointed out, is that if you're actually planning to hit 20 you're missing out on all the goodness of Cleric17. Is +2Dex really worth it to lose out on that? I don't think so.

Battlemaster is one of those areas in 5e that I actually don't have much experience with, so I can't really comment on it too deeply, but it sounds well suited to your playstyle. Though it is worth noting that given how spellcasting classes stack going with Eldritch Knight will actually give you an extra spell level, potentially rolling you into 9th level slots, even if you miss the 9th levels spells themselves. Not an auto-pick, but worth toying around with.

Other than that it seems pretty solid.

[rooneg]

Hi there, thanks for the super useful guide. I'm putting together a new AL character (gotta have a tier 1 around, and my existing ones are about to level out of it) and I'm thinking Wood Elf Arcana Cleric. Just trying to plan out the build and wanted to get some feedback.

Here's the point buy stats (with Wood Elf mods added in):

STR 10
DEX 15
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 12

I know I could dump INT and/or STR further, but I hate penalties even in dump stats and it's not clear it's necessary, those stats look pretty insane anyway. The 15 DEX is so that Medium Armor Master can eventually take me to 16 DEX with a total AC of 20 for Half Plate and Shield without stealth penalty. The 13 CON is because I'm planing on taking Resilient CON instead of War Caster to help with keeping up concentration. The other ASIs will be 2 WIS increases and Magic Initiate (Druid) for Shillelagh, Goodberry and some other random Druid cantrip.

The questions are basically what order should the ASIs go in (currently thinking level 4: WIS to 18, level 8: Resilient CON, level 12: Medium Armor Master, level 16: Magic Initiate, level 19: WIS to 20, but basically anything other than the +2 WIS at level 4 seems up in the air) and what wizard cantrips do I want (currently thinking Green-Flame Blade + Minor Illusion, but that Minor Illusion could also be Booming Blade or a ranged attack cantrip like Fire Bolt or Ray of Frost).

Also, just to be sure I'm getting this right, a Green-Flame Blade with Shillelagh eventually means my attack is 1d8 (base damage) + WisMod (shillelagh) + Nd8 (Green-Flame Blade) + WisMod (Potent Spellcasting) and then an additional Nd8 + WisMod to another target from Green-Flame blade. So double WisMod on the initial attack, then another WisMod on the second target, right?

Am I missing anything obvious here? This seems like a pretty strong build...

[DMJ1]

Also, just to be sure I'm getting this right, a Green-Flame Blade with Shillelagh eventually means my attack is 1d8 (base damage) + WisMod (shillelagh) + Nd8 (Green-Flame Blade) + WisMod (Potent Spellcasting) and then an additional Nd8 + WisMod to another target from Green-Flame blade. So double WisMod on the initial attack, then another WisMod on the second target, right?

I don't think you apply the Wisdom modifier to the damage two times to the first target. The shillelagh effect emulates the potent spellcasting effect. I would argue that since you already have that effect permanently, it just does not apply a second time. You use a specific ability modifier, or you don't, but you can't stack up those modifiers. This is how I understand the RAW, but I could be wrong!

If shillelagh would be a second spell (thus ultimately two separate attacks) that would be a different thing, but you make only one attack for which you apply all normal effects plus one time the appropriate spell modifier.

Second target you apply Wisdom modifier one time, correct!

[rooneg]

I don't think you apply the Wisdom modifier to the damage two times to the first target. The shillelagh effect emulates the potent spellcasting effect. I would argue that since you already have that effect permanently, it just does not apply a second time. You use a specific ability modifier, or you don't, but you can't stack up those modifiers. This is how I understand the RAW, but I could be wrong!

I'm not clear why you think the shillelagh effect and the potent spellcasting effect are the same thing. Shillelagh says you use your spellcasting attribute instead of STR when rolling to-hit and damage rolls. For a cantrip like Green-Flame Blade that just means the underlying weapon attack gets a WIS modifier for its damage (and uses a d8 instead of whatever the regular weapon die is). The actual Green-Flame Blade cantrip damage is a separate magical effect, it even has a different damage type, and thus I think it should get the Potent Spellcasting WIS modifier added in.

If shillelagh would be a second spell (thus ultimately two separate attacks) that would be a different thing, but you make only one attack for which you apply all normal effects plus one time the appropriate spell modifier.

But Shillelagh itself isn't anywhere close to being a spell that Potent Spellcasting would apply to in the first place. It just says "from now on, when you attack with this piece of wood it uses a d8 damage die and WIS for its to-hit and damage modifier". If you had some other magic weapon that said "this weapon uses WIS as its damage modifier" would you also think that Potent Spellcasting wouldn't increase the damage dealt by Green-Flame Blade? If so, I'm not clear why. The modifiers both use WIS, but they're coming from different places and doing different things, to the point where one of them is magical bludgeoning damage that comes from a weapon and one is magical fire damage that comes from a cantrip.

Second target you apply Wisdom modifier one time, correct!

I'm pretty sure that's the intent, because they don't usually like you double dipping on stuff like Potent Spellcasting (applying it to both the cantrip damage you did to your initial target and the one you did to your second target), but RAW I'm not sure it shouldn't be applied to both.

[DMJ1]

I'm not clear why you think the shillelagh effect and the potent spellcasting effect are the same thing. Shillelagh says you use your spellcasting attribute instead of STR when rolling to-hit and damage rolls. For a cantrip like Green-Flame Blade that just means the underlying weapon attack gets a WIS modifier for its damage (and uses a d8 instead of whatever the regular weapon die is). The actual Green-Flame Blade cantrip damage is a separate magical effect, it even has a different damage type, and thus I think it should get the Potent Spellcasting WIS modifier added in.

I edited my previous post which should make my reasoning more clear I hope. The thing is, that you do not cast a cantrip. If you use a club, you just use a club that was transmuted by a cantrip, before you made any attacks.

If you could cast maybe firebolt or something during a bonus action, that would be a damaging cantrip you actually cast and thus add your potent spellcasting ability.

My arguing before was a bit off...it is not that you apply the bonus two times and Shillelagh is not emulating the potent spellcasting effect. The argument is that you do not cast the cantrip Shillelagh during your attack.