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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Modern Mongoose Monks

    As a few of you know Mongoose had its Quinitessential series offering a lot of multiclass options and replacement features based on paths. So I took a couple from the Quintessential Monk giving them a 5e makeover while borrowing a from a few outside inspirations.

    The Way of the Titan

    While most monks seek perfection through sinew and asceticism the Titan has sought it through mass and consumption. A Titan will always take time to enjoy what is given to him as rejecting because of restraint is often deemed to be impolite and ungrateful to others. As such a Titan learns ways to better submit opponents and take more punishment because sometimes a mountain is needed to stand against the tide.
    Notes for the Campaign: A monk who takes will increase in weight as per the abilities below but in general this weight should be added on gradually and as a rule of thumb must consume 50% more food than usually required even when they would reach the level of monk in which they do not require food. Flexibility should be discussed with the DM maybe with in the parameters of one day no food next day 3x food..etc.

    Rikishi: At level 3 a monk who chooses this gains a +1 bonus related to any Strength related checks or saves. A monk who chooses this path is now referred to as a Titan. They also gain one additional hit point per level of monk they posses. Additionally they may initiate a shove, trip, drag, or grapple option as a bonus action and may replace any attack they can with one dealing damage as if it was an untrained unarmed strike if it was successful. If they pay 1 ki point as a action they may make an unarmed strike that deals extra damage equal to half their monk level(round up). If this strike is successful the victim cannot perform a disengage action against them and has disadvantage on dexterity based skills until the beginning of the Titan's next turn. This may be done as a bonus action at level 6 if they spend 2 ki points. However this process of training involves body mass building, which increases their base weight by 20%, going against their mobility decreasing their base speed by 5 ft and their dexterity score by one.

    Titan's Prowess: At level 6 a monk who chooses this path becomes proficient in constitution saving throws. When they would become proficient in all attribute saves due to Diamond Soul when they would use a ki point to reroll a strength or constitution save they may treat themselves as having advantage. Additionally any physical attack not dealt from a light weapon, flurry of blows, or offhand attack may increase the base damage dealt by one step and may be treated as two-handed weapon for the purpose of feats and other abilities when it is beneficial. Finally, they may spend a ki point on any successful check to shove, drag, trip, or grapple treating it as a trained unarmed strike for all purposes including dealing damage.

    Sekitori: At level 11 a monk who chooses this path gains another +1 bonus to strength checks as well as saves and may ignore 3 points of any kind of damage other than psychic damage, but they gain another set of penalties and weight increase as indicated by Rikishi. They may also spend 3 ki points to use the enlarge/reduce spell as a supernatural ability which lasts for 1+wisdom modifier rounds, meaning they don't need to concentrate on it. If they already would gain advantage on strength rolls from another source they get a +2 bonus to their strength score. This otherwise functions as the spell. The amount of distance the Titan can shove or drag a creature is 5+5 ft/2 points exceeded on the check beyond the first one if they choose to. If another creature would be in a line of effect of this shove another shove may be attempted at a -2 penalty but only once per shove.

    Mountain Incarnate: At level 17 a monk who completes the Way of the Titan gains a +2 increase in strength that isn't subject to the normal cap and one point of health per level of monk they posses, but this also increases their body mass by another 20% and set of penalties from Rikishi. At this point the Titan and allies may always treat them as one size larger whenever it would be beneficial to do so. They also may make a reaction against any monster initiating a trip, shove, drag, or grapple against themselves or another ally if the Titan has a line off effect. This is resolved by initiating a strength check and if successful dismisses the attempt even if it is magical or supernatural.

    Finally, after a target is grappled, incapacitated, or render a target prone that is within your base reach+5 feet as a free action you can spend 5 ki points to force them to make a strength save which increases by 1 for every effective size smaller than the Titan. If they fail any creature of your effective size or smaller is shunted into an extradimensional space in which no amount of teleportation or incorporeality can escape. They may only have one creature of equivalent size and multiplying the capacity by two for every size lower in which he may eject any creature or object out as a free action. While in this space they take 4d6+str. modifier in bludgeoning damage that is magical and 4d6 points in force damage every round as well as being restrained. They can attempt to make an attack with a light weapon against an AC of 13. If they deal damage equaling one quarter(round up) of the monk's hit points they may escape the dimension exiting to any adjacent square of their choice in which the monk needs to have a short rest to use it again. This otherwise lasts for 1 minute in which they are ejected 10 ft in a direction of the monk's choice landing prone. If they would die in the dimension the body is consider to be disintegrated and the monk gains hit points equal to the hit die of the creature which may exceed his own acting as temporary hit points, but these points do not stack with themselves. Alternatively if a creature is willing the monk merely needs to meet the range and they may stay in the extra dimensional space harmlessly in which they are not rendered prone when the time is up and may leave any time either by completing a move or bonus action.

    The Way of the Sword

    A sword of their ancestors or a dedicated school teaching the unknown ways of certain weapons, all such paths are enforced except the fist when a monk would take up the Way of the Sword. A Kensai grows a special attachment to their weapon of choice and gains supernatural abilities with it.
    Notes for the Campaign: A Kensai is compelled to have his chosen weapon on their person at all times. While not impossible to convince them to relinquish it usually it would require some form of haggling or mandated rule/importance to do so. If they would lose their weapon of choice they in general must do something to obtain a weapon similar to the one they had unless somehow circumstances force them to do so otherwise. A DM may discuss with the player what would detrimentally happen after a day without their weapon of choice but in general it should be a minor penalty but this may be increased if it was outright destroyed.

    Journey with your Weapon: At level 3 a monk who chooses this path can either choose to become proficient with an exotic weapon of their choice(if they come later) or gain full martial weapons proficiency. As of now there are referred to as a Kensai. Additionally by meditating with a weapon or a set of same kind of weapon they are proficient with for 30 minutes even if it doesn't normally qualify as a monk weapon they may gain full benefits of the Martial Arts feature. Only one type of weapon may benefit from this at a time and can not be changed unless there would be a definable shift and affinity to another while in the campaign. They may also choose a Fighting style from the following list. Finally, they may cast magic weapon as a supernatural ability by spending a 1 ki point to give a +1 bonus, ignoring the need to maintain concentration. At level 9 they may spend 3 ki points to give it a +2 bonus. At level 16 they may spend 5 ki points to give it a +3 bonus.

    Archery

    You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls you make with
    ranged weapons.

    Defense

    While you are wielding your chosen weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

    Dueling

    When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and
    no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls
    with that weapon.

    Great Weapon Fighting

    When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you
    make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with
    two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new
    roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must
    have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain
    this benefit.

    Two-Weapon Fighting

    When you engage in two-weapon fighting, if you successfully hit with both weapons against a single opponent you may roll an extra 1d6+1 points of damage which is treated as being all the kinds of physical damage made from the attacks.

    Extension of Self: At level 7 a Kensei may treat their chosen weapon as an unarmed strike in all respects possible as well as gaining a +1 attack bonus. However, any other weapon starts to become foreign to them incurring a -1 penalty when using other weapons. Additionally a Kensai may choose from one of the following chosen weapon techniques which may only apply to their chosen weapon.

    Keen Edge

    As long as they have 1 point of ki in their pool the Kensai has their threat range expanded to 19-20 and may add their wisdom modifier to their critical damage roll.

    True Strike

    A kensai may pay 3 ki points as a free action once a round to gain advantage on the next attack roll they make.

    Unweaving Blow

    A kensai may pay 2 ki points to make a dispel check as an attack against a caster or item using their attack roll.

    Hypnotic Stance
    Prerequisite: Flourishing Training

    A kensai may pay 4 ki points as a bonus action to move and strike with an entrancing grace. Any number of creatures that have a total hit die equal to their monk level plus their wisdom modifier within 30 feet of the kensai must make a wisdom save or be charmed. If they fail they must always take actions to pay attention to the Kensai. As such if a battle hasn't been started they will likely stand attentively watching the Kensai having disadvantage on insight checks against the Kensai. If during battle they must always remain moving towards the Kensai. Either way they have disadvantage on perception checks against anyone but the Kensai while suffering a -2 penalty to attack and AC to others as well. If another creature would attack them they are entitled to another will save with advantage. If they succeed the creatures are immune to the effect for one hour. This lasts a number of rounds equal to your Perform proficiency bonus

    Flourishing Training

    A kensai becomes proficient in Acrobatics and Perform checks. If they are already proficient in them they gain a +2 bonus in those checks.

    Rugged Form

    A Kensai becomes proficient in Athletics and Survival checks. If they are already proficient in them they gain a +2 bonus in those checks.

    Adamant Parry
    Prerequisitie: Rugged Form

    A Kensai may spend 3 ki points as a reaction against any kind of melee attack that will hit them. This otherwise functions as the Deflect Missiles class feature as such it only functions with a melee weapon.

    Whirlwind Attack
    Prerequisite: One chosen weapon technique

    A Kensai may spend 3 ki points as an attack action to make a sweeping array of blows. If the chosen weapon is a melee weapon the Kensai may make an attack against every opponent in its range. If the chosen weapon is a ranged weapon they may attack each foe in a cone equal to half if its range increment(minimum 20 ft).

    Trip the Wire
    Prerequisite: Alert

    As long as the Kensai has 1 point in their ki pool they may make a reactionary melee attack based upon the Kensai's design. At the beginning of the day when they would meditate to choose its chosen weapon they can designate a specific(such as movement, attack, spell..etc) action from a foe and a target(ally or the Kensai) in which the action is directed towards. The kensai may change this trigger as an attack action for 3 ki points. This may only be used on a melee weapon.

    Shot in the Fray
    Prerequisite: Alert

    As long as the Kensai has 1 point in their ki pool a ranged attack from a chosen weapon no longer has disadvantage when threatened by one and may make reaction attacks as if it were a melee weapon up to 10 feet away. If they spend 3 ki points they may make a reactionary attack up to one range increment. This may only be applied to a ranged weapon.

    Eye of the Storm
    Prerequisites: minimum level 17, Whirlwind Attack chosen weapon technique

    As an attack action the Kensai can cast blade barrier by spending 5 ki points as the spell with the following exceptions. The damage is whatever damage their chosen weapon deals. The barrier does not at all harm them or impede their senses. If they spend an additional 2 ki points they may add their wisdom modifier and base weapon damage including enhancement bonuses to the damage roll.

    Whispers from Steel: At level 11 the Kensai's sense of anticipation becomes even more aware. They gain Alert as a bonus feat if they already have it as a feat they may obtain another feat in which they qualify for. Additionally they may select another chosen weapon trick.

    Supernal Union: At level 17 a Kensai gains an extra attack using the attack action. Additionally as long as they are not incapicitated their chosen weapon cannot disamed or sunder as well as gaining another +1 bonus to their attack roll with their chosen weapon but also suffer another -1 penalty to all others. They may also choose another chosen weapon technique. Finally they may select a second type of chosen weapon using another meditation. If the Kesai would ever select the Martial Adept feat they may instead choose 2 chosen weapon technique. If they already have it they may select it again for this purpose.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-13 at 05:13 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    I posted some images. Anyone?

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    good images haha, and i like the ideas her, now to fit them in as evil npcs mwahhaha, enter, thunder and lightning
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    good images haha, and i like the ideas her, now to fit them in as evil npcs mwahhaha, enter, thunder and lightning
    Thank you, if you actually do please report back to me in how they perform. While I love the simplicity and modularity of this new system I wonder how they compare to other monks and the abilities are a bit much.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-04 at 08:59 AM.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    will do, just as soon as my parties get back together, *sigh*
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Anybody else?

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post

    Journey with your Weapon: At level 3 a monk who chooses this path can either choose to become proficient with an exotic weapon of their choice(if they come later) or gain full martial weapons proficiency. As of now there are referred to as a Kensai. Additionally by meditating with a weapon or a set of same kind of weapon they are proficient with for 30 minutes even if it doesn't normally qualify as a monk weapon they may gain full benefits of the Martial Arts feature. Only one type of weapon may benefit from this at a time and can not be changed unless there would be a definable shift and affinity to another while in the campaign. They may also choose a Fighting style from the following list. Finally, they may cast magic weapon as a supernatural ability by spending a 1 ki point to give a +1 bonus, ignoring the need to maintain concentration. At level 8 they may spend 3 ki points to give it a +2 bonus. At level 14 they may spend 5 ki points to give it a +3 bonus.

    Archery

    You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls you make with
    ranged weapons.

    Defense

    While you are wielding your chosen weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

    Dueling

    When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and
    no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls
    with that weapon.

    Great Weapon Fighting

    When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you
    make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with
    two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new
    roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must
    have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain
    this benefit.

    Two-Weapon Fighting

    When you engage in two-weapon fighting, if you successfully hit with both weapons you may roll an extra 1d6+1 points of damage which is treated as being all the kinds of physical damage made from the attacks.
    I'm going to do this in parts since i don't have the time for a full analysis in whole

    So first, I like the idea of a weapon focus with proficiency, but i generally disagree on not being able to shift to another weapon on general principle due to me liking flexibility in play style.
    Second, I suggest that the Magic Weapon as an ability both cost less than the amount normally given in order to level both cast and sustain is a bit off in accordance to the actual spell (where it would be 2, 4, and 6 for a +1, +2, and +3 respectively) and the normal time a playtest was referred to as to when you should get a +2 and +3 weapon (somewhere around 11-15, and 17-20). And I think the waiving of concentration should not be taken away (as in it should use the character's concentration) but the need for a concentration check should not be done while sustaining this effect (but only when it is on the weapon they have decided to master). As for when you should be able to use the ability and its upgrades I suggest that it should follow the elemental monk's ki use progression from the PHB.
    As to my sources on the playtest, I think i saw it on reddit or the wotc forums when they where talking about the playtests and thus is only a generalization at best.
    Finally, While i agree that two weapon fighting is weak as is, especially when you can choose to use your bonus action to do a flurry, i'm wondering why you changed the two weapon fighting style text.
    I would really like some input on this 5e Homebrew
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...mebrew-on-GitP

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by BRKNdevil View Post
    I'm going to do this in parts since i don't have the time for a full analysis in whole

    So first, I like the idea of a weapon focus with proficiency, but i generally disagree on not being able to shift to another weapon on general principle due to me liking flexibility in play style.
    Second, I suggest that the Magic Weapon as an ability both cost less than the amount normally given in order to level both cast and sustain is a bit off in accordance to the actual spell (where it would be 2, 4, and 6 for a +1, +2, and +3 respectively) and the normal time a playtest was referred to as to when you should get a +2 and +3 weapon (somewhere around 11-15, and 17-20). And I think the waiving of concentration should not be taken away (as in it should use the character's concentration) but the need for a concentration check should not be done while sustaining this effect (but only when it is on the weapon they have decided to master). As for when you should be able to use the ability and its upgrades I suggest that it should follow the elemental monk's ki use progression from the PHB.
    As to my sources on the playtest, I think i saw it on reddit or the wotc forums when they where talking about the playtests and thus is only a generalization at best.
    Finally, While i agree that two weapon fighting is weak as is, especially when you can choose to use your bonus action to do a flurry, i'm wondering why you changed the two weapon fighting style text.
    1. Well it needs a bit of heel and goes against the style of the subclass to do so. If the DM has negotiated a shift to a different weapon with the player it allows them to do so.
    2. People who have bought their weapons or got flashy new ones don't concentrate on them though. In fact they aren't usually the ones concentrating on them so that's why I mentioned that. The spell though only lasts an hour so in most cases they are going to have to use it at almost every meaningful battle, especially with thrown types. Yeah, but in all likelyhood it will do other things and that is when the other monastic traditions kick in but I will shift it to 9 and 16 respectively.
    3. It is because the Martial Arts feature already gives the two-weapon style ability automatically because it never refers to an off-hand attack being made in both the regular bonus action attack or the flurry. It is also why I said both weapons in the description.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-06 at 01:14 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Any other thoughts?

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    I feel like there are some decent ideas in here but overall they are a bit over powering compared to other subclasses and the wording of the powers and often the mechanics behind them aren't consistant with the simplicity of design that follows 5e character design.

    Rikishi: At level 3 a monk who chooses this gains a +1 bonus related to any Strength related checks or saves. A monk who chooses this path is now referred to as a Titan. They also gain one additional hit point per level of monk they posses as well as a +1 bonus to their AC. Additionally they may initiate a shove, trip, drag, or grapple option as a bonus action. If they pay 1 ki point they may get another bonus action that may only be used in the above way. However this process of training involves body mass building, which increases their base weight by 20%, going against their mobility decreasing their base speed by 5 ft and their dexterity score by one. In general this weight should be added on gradually and as such they must consume 50% more food than usually required.
    Just with the first power you are giving several very strong advantages, where most sub classes offer a single boost at this level. It's very rare to see anything offer a +1 to a save or a check in 5e, this should either make the monk proficient in strength saves, give expertise in it, or give them advantage on str checks. All of which follow 5e methodology for bonuses.

    On top of that they are gaining +1 HP per level, which there are precident's for through the dwarf racial and similar feats.

    They are also gaining +1 AC, which is equal to a Fighters Fighting Style

    If the three bonuses above weren't strong enough they also get to make special attack options as a bonus action and on top of that can use Ki point to do it again. I feel this is a way too strong and should be one or the other not both. And I'm leaning towards the Ki point maneuver.

    The body mass is also strangely written, it's a clunky mechanic and is an oddity for 5e where very things actually give a character a negative statistic.

    Titan's Prowess: At level 6 a monk who chooses this path becomes proficient in constitution saving throws. When they would become proficient in all attribute saves due to Diamond Soul when they would use a ki point to reroll a strength or constitution save they may treat themselves as having advantage. Additionally any physical attack not dealt from a light weapon, flurry of blows, or offhand attack may increase the base damage dealt by one step and may be treated as two-handed weapon for the purpose of feats and other abilities when it is beneficial. Finally, they may spend a ki point on any successful check to shove, drag, trip, or grapple treating it as an unarmed strike for all purposes including dealing damage.
    Another mass of bonuses using clunky mechanics. Just say they can use a Ki point to have advantage on strength and Con Checks.

    Additionally it would be easier to say the Titan's unarmed attacks are treated as having the Heavy Property when used with Feats.

    but where most subclasses give 1 perk you're giving 3 again...

    Yet another ki point maneuver to let them make another special attack option as part of another action. What is that an attack, 2 bonus actions and a mysterious third shove or grapple? This is getting a little ridiculous and breaking action economy.


    I know I'm coming off rude or harsh, but I really liked the potential these changes have, however there is no way I'd let them be used at my table. Just reading the first few options and this character is already stronger than any other subclass of an equivalent level.

    I'd clean up the rules and rethink some of the bonuses to make sure they fall in line with other classes.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    I feel like there are some decent ideas in here but overall they are a bit over powering compared to other subclasses and the wording of the powers and often the mechanics behind them aren't consistant with the simplicity of design that follows 5e character design.



    Just with the first power you are giving several very strong advantages, where most sub classes offer a single boost at this level. It's very rare to see anything offer a +1 to a save or a check in 5e, this should either make the monk proficient in strength saves, give expertise in it, or give them advantage on str checks. All of which follow 5e methodology for bonuses.

    On top of that they are gaining +1 HP per level, which there are precident's for through the dwarf racial and similar feats.

    They are also gaining +1 AC, which is equal to a Fighters Fighting Style

    If the three bonuses above weren't strong enough they also get to make special attack options as a bonus action and on top of that can use Ki point to do it again. I feel this is a way too strong and should be one or the other not both. And I'm leaning towards the Ki point maneuver.

    The body mass is also strangely written, it's a clunky mechanic and is an oddity for 5e where very things actually give a character a negative statistic.



    Another mass of bonuses using clunky mechanics. Just say they can use a Ki point to have advantage on strength and Con Checks.

    Additionally it would be easier to say the Titan's unarmed attacks are treated as having the Heavy Property when used with Feats.

    but where most subclasses give 1 perk you're giving 3 again...

    Yet another ki point maneuver to let them make another special attack option as part of another action. What is that an attack, 2 bonus actions and a mysterious third shove or grapple? This is getting a little ridiculous and breaking action economy.


    I know I'm coming off rude or harsh, but I really liked the potential these changes have, however there is no way I'd let them be used at my table. Just reading the first few options and this character is already stronger than any other subclass of an equivalent level.

    I'd clean up the rules and rethink some of the bonuses to make sure they fall in line with other classes.
    1. Actually the rule of one isn't really true at all. Both the Open Hand and Shadow Monks get 3 ki options at level 3. The Battle Master consistently gets 2, don't forget the gish subclasses have the secondary benefits of spells on top of the other abilities. The Totem barbarian couple of time gets 2. A few of the wizard subclasses gets a few abilities with a few different alternatives. However the only reason I had an AC bonus was because the original Titan monk gave natural armor, so I am not beholden to that at all. However given that he loses 15 speed and 2 dexterity don't you think the accumulation of numbers is a little necessary?
    2. Yes, bonuses in classes are rare but optimally this class walks away with a +4 effective modifier at 17. I think advantage will typically win out and it is counter intuitive in the idea that he builds his body bigger and sturdier.
    3.That first ki ability was to at least give something special to do with a ki point as all the other sub-classes did. It isn't a mechanic it is a suggested flavor for the player to discuss with their DM, it was only to give a basis on what would make sense given that they are making a Sumatori.
    4. The heavy property is actually a property to indicate disadvantage to those who would be small and weak. It has nothing to do with being two-handed or even damaging more in and of itself. So it would do nothing by saying that.
    5. No, then that makes Diamond Soul a little redundant.
    6. Well the Charger feat taxes a bonus action in addition to the dash so given it already does that at base I wanted to make it worth it if they would, but maybe it is unnecessary and I'll just keep the additional shoving distance.

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    since the titan is the way he is, with becoming a bigger target thats slower... but one whom doesnt feel pain, what about giving damage resistance instead of ac? just start shrugging x damage while loosing ac, so you get hit more but care less, like the real warriors
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    since the titan is the way he is, with becoming a bigger target thats slower... but one whom doesnt feel pain, what about giving damage resistance instead of ac? just start shrugging x damage while loosing ac, so you get hit more but care less, like the real warriors
    I think that is already covered with the 40 additional health. Mainly I am wondering if really the additional bonus action ki ability of the first is really that breaking or if there is something far more interesting to do that still makes sense that I am missing. I only made it because there is no reason to why he couldn't use a flurry of blows for the same price to do it twice unless the DM is being that literal and every monk archetype has a ki ability at that level.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-11 at 08:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    extra health makes sense, AC does not, instead of AC make his AC go down a bit each lvl but give him the old ability of ignoring a certain amount of damage, i mean even if its 1 per lvl (1-5) 2 per lvl(6-10) 3 per lvl (11-15) 4 per lvl (16-20) and so on it will make him a good, steady tank, just like what you are basing him off of and still on par with what creatures of each lvl can do, plus epic lvl options/prestige options would be interesting, also, flurry of blows makes less sense with him due to how they move, instead why not give him a version that is a one hit more damage sort of deal with some knock back on it that lvls like flurry does, that build would be a str/con build, not a dex one
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    extra health makes sense, AC does not, instead of AC make his AC go down a bit each lvl but give him the old ability of ignoring a certain amount of damage, i mean even if its 1 per lvl (1-5) 2 per lvl(6-10) 3 per lvl (11-15) 4 per lvl (16-20) and so on it will make him a good, steady tank, just like what you are basing him off of and still on par with what creatures of each lvl can do, plus epic lvl options/prestige options would be interesting, also, flurry of blows makes less sense with him due to how they move, instead why not give him a version that is a one hit more damage sort of deal with some knock back on it that lvls like flurry does, that build would be a str/con build, not a dex one
    1. Hmm, in this game I am not sure a -4 AC is worth a 4 damage resistance even if it is against every kind of damage given how it applies to more things now and there is less room to make up the difference. In a way it already does this by decreasing dexterity but with a more controlled sense.
    2. I don't think sub-classes would eliminate base class features. I also really don't want to copy the Open Hand monk, especially when they can kind of stack their effects. Though Sumatori are about one on one combat. How about as an action they make an unarmed attack that adds half his level in damage but when it hits forces the opponent to have disadvantage on dexterity based skill checks and attack rolls against other opponents that lasts for the round instead of what I have now?

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    so for AC down versus resist up
    (for easy math ill use the lvl 5 version at -5 +5)
    -5 ac at lvl 5 is equal to the bonus of a fighter with 14 str, or dex if ranged, and means that your ac will be say double effected by this sort of thing, so you have a... say 20 percent high balled worse time dodging not including the diff from having the boost but including the idea of you wearing some protective stuff by then and having decent dex base, however at that same level if we assume max damage output by the same fighter you will take 5 less per attack, so even if they max their rolls they wont hit for much, damage of each with greatsword=
    AC neg=from 58 damage in one round to 47 not including if they roll 20s and bypass ac
    resist = from 58 to 38 regardless of 20s
    if you treat crits as secondary attack swing that happen together then:
    Ac: from 78 to 63 ignoring 20s being a thing
    res: from 78 to 38 regardless of 20s
    for more average damage amounts:
    ac: 42/46 to 34/37
    res: 42/46 to 22/22
    based on crit percentile, the extra attack doing 4 dam is just ignored
    so it is slightly stronger than an AC bonus, but over time effects or special effects arent as easily dodged so... even

    and historically some subclasses have done only that or done that as part of them, so long as the rough flavor is the same the general boosts can be changed, and if you train with the palm strike technique after you are a sumo type master those abilities would actually work together irl, this would also make another melee build that may even out the wizards a bit
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    so for AC down versus resist up
    (for easy math ill use the lvl 5 version at -5 +5)
    -5 ac at lvl 5 is equal to the bonus of a fighter with 14 str, or dex if ranged, and means that your ac will be say double effected by this sort of thing, so you have a... say 20 percent high balled worse time dodging not including the diff from having the boost but including the idea of you wearing some protective stuff by then and having decent dex base, however at that same level if we assume max damage output by the same fighter you will take 5 less per attack, so even if they max their rolls they wont hit for much, damage of each with greatsword=
    AC neg=from 58 damage in one round to 47 not including if they roll 20s and bypass ac
    resist = from 58 to 38 regardless of 20s
    if you treat crits as secondary attack swing that happen together then:
    Ac: from 78 to 63 ignoring 20s being a thing
    res: from 78 to 38 regardless of 20s
    for more average damage amounts:
    ac: 42/46 to 34/37
    res: 42/46 to 22/22
    based on crit percentile, the extra attack doing 4 dam is just ignored
    so it is slightly stronger than an AC bonus, but over time effects or special effects arent as easily dodged so... even
    1. Well I am not even sure what you are using as this guy's base AC here. Also the damage output of a 5th level fighter is not going to be the same per attack as a 20th level fighter. At the very least he will have a +3 greatsword if not Great Weapon Mastery to decrease his attack by 5 to add 10 damage not including the possibility of Battlemaster..etc. If you are assuming maximum damage it should be 68(17 damage x 4) and I don't know how you getting a reduction of 40 damage in the critical when it is just a reduction of 5(max 20). I therefore think it really isn't that reasonable to assume only a 14 str greatsword fighter with no bonuses at level 20 since this is the cap you are scaling this up to.
    2. How about my other ki ability idea?
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-12 at 12:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    the other idea isnt too bad, but that would be more of a viper style nerve thing, how about when it hits they make a reflex save or the items where the attack hit take half damage sundering or(choose before roll) they make a fort check against being stunned(or disoriented if they still have that?) for 1 round per lvl, as long as they are hit by the attack they get knocked prone unless they make another reflex save

    but i wasnt scaling to 20 right then, that is just the max damage i could get with a lvl 5 fighter based on the 5e rules and currently available templates, versus the 2 versions of monk

    and yeah... i didnt use base AC values actually, AC just gives you a slightly better chance to dodge which i counted in as a percentage chance to dodge(probably made it worth a little more than i could have really, but basically 5 ac is equivalent to 1/5th of a 5th lvl fighter's max attack roll(25) thus a 5 is worth about 20 %, not counting other gear, both more or less ac when calculated this way have the same numbers just in opposite ways,

    the damage amounts are based on a str 18 lvl 5 fighter,

    (btw) the damage reduction has no cap officially actually only one source has ever had a limit and that was a spell that said you couldn't cast it stronger,

    and i said it was one AC down and 1 reduct up per lvl so at lvl 5 its 5 each, so each separate strike negates 5 dam ( thus the dm discretion on crit attacks part) basically it ended up working out,

    im just trying to help out :-)
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    the other idea isnt too bad, but that would be more of a viper style nerve thing, how about when it hits they make a reflex save or the items where the attack hit take half damage sundering or(choose before roll) they make a fort check against being stunned(or disoriented if they still have that?) for 1 round per lvl, as long as they are hit by the attack they get knocked prone unless they make another reflex save

    but i wasnt scaling to 20 right then, that is just the max damage i could get with a lvl 5 fighter based on the 5e rules and currently available templates, versus the 2 versions of monk

    and yeah... i didnt use base AC values actually, AC just gives you a slightly better chance to dodge which i counted in as a percentage chance to dodge(probably made it worth a little more than i could have really, but basically 5 ac is equivalent to 1/5th of a 5th lvl fighter's max attack roll(25) thus a 5 is worth about 20 %, not counting other gear, both more or less ac when calculated this way have the same numbers just in opposite ways,

    the damage amounts are based on a str 18 lvl 5 fighter,

    (btw) the damage reduction has no cap officially actually only one source has ever had a limit and that was a spell that said you couldn't cast it stronger,

    and i said it was one AC down and 1 reduct up per lvl so at lvl 5 its 5 each, so each separate strike negates 5 dam ( thus the dm discretion on crit attacks part) basically it ended up working out,

    im just trying to help out :-)
    1. Well, first off any monk gets stunning fist here. Also sumatori don't really sunder things as a point of focus. I know kind of what you mean by a viper style thing but to me that would include disadvantage on attacks against them in which mine doesn't(only others). If you think about it the various positions of semi-grappling in the sport not only does it make it harder to focus on other things but makes things based off of dexterity more difficult. So, given this suppose to be a lockdown, maneuver oriented subclass I think it should be effective and makes sense.
    2. But the fighter here is less likely to roll an attack maximum than they are a damage maximum and the fighter could easily have that feat and make the difference adding more damage than the reduction can make up.
    3. I assumed you were still going off the scaling you used as that is what you suggested Also the effective 40 DR is just simply impossible here because criticals reroll the weapon damage and add it to the other damage meaning it still only applies once. Yes, the DR numbers definitely have an edge against multiple little attacks but that seems less likely to happen in this game.
    4. With all this being said I am willing to shift some things around. I think I will shift the second additional health to 17 incurring another dexterity decrease and replace what was there with 3 DR against anything but psychic damage.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-12 at 08:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    thinking of the style, what if you made them grapple based more, graple is its own skill for fighting entirely, there are alot of good grapple things you can work with, and i have had DMs rule that critical stike damage counts as its own damage before(basically saying you swung twice)
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    thinking of the style, what if you made them grapple based more, graple is its own skill for fighting entirely, there are alot of good grapple things you can work with, and i have had DMs rule that critical stike damage counts as its own damage before(basically saying you swung twice)
    1. But they don't just do grapples, they shove, slap..etc Besides it already kind of has a supernatural grapple ability as its capstone.
    2. Then those DM's are wrong because not only do you just reroll the weapon dice you never make another attack roll to begin with. What is the point of saying its a critical if the attack isn't treated dealing more damage once?

    P.S. I made the changes I was talking about.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2014-10-12 at 05:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    cool, and yeah, i think its more for flavor with them, the idea of instead of hitting the enemies with the great axe you slam it into their shoulder then whip your weight around to pull it free into a spinning second hit, they were always foggy in the rules as to what EXACTLY a crit does haha, and i saw that, i was just meaning that since ur going for the restrictive hold attacks make them roll escape checks against your grapple or suffer the penalties of being held in that position
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    Default Re: Modern Mongoose Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    cool, and yeah, i think its more for flavor with them, the idea of instead of hitting the enemies with the great axe you slam it into their shoulder then whip your weight around to pull it free into a spinning second hit, they were always foggy in the rules as to what EXACTLY a crit does haha, and i saw that, i was just meaning that since ur going for the restrictive hold attacks make them roll escape checks against your grapple or suffer the penalties of being held in that position
    1. It always kind of had that I just added that chain one because the original had a trample ability which is why I had the modified feat at first. This way he can emulate it even if he uses the Dash option.
    2. Well, the problem is it already has a lot going on and should it really have any more debilitation that another type of grappler? It has other maneuvers it uses and gets tougher so I think I should just let the rest of 5e and feats fill in the rest if they wish.
    What I would really like is a comparison with the Barbarian as this monk is a bit more about numbers and tanking.

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