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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR 30

    Title says it all. We have a long debate going on here about various ways for beating Big T.

    Without repeating a several hundred post series of arguments, there are ways to defeat a Tarrasque that are feasible at levels lower than 20, to say nothing of 30. Most of them rely upon flight or ranged attack + kite.

    My question, then, is what would a Tarrasque look like if it really truly was CR 30?

    Design desiderata:
    1. Add as little as possible. The IKEA Tarrasque is right out. Let us show tasteful restraint.
    2. Stay as close as possible to the essence of Big T. The idea of a primal force of nature awakening from centuries of slumber and wreaking near-mindless physical havoc should be retained. While a Tarrasque with CHA=30 and 30 levels of Sorcerer is hilarious, it's not really Big T.


    Constraints on the proposed ways of beating the Tarrasque are perhaps necessary to inform our design, so let me list some.
    1. The chances of casting a ritual successfully if a Concentration check is required, even given 95% chance of passing it each round, are approximately one in 25 trillion. Therefore, you cannot perform rituals while riding at any pace faster than a walk, or riding a flying creature at all; nor can you perform a ritual while evading attacks from the Tarrasque, even if you are somehow immune to them. 50' of raging reptile is a distraction no matter what abjurations surround you.
    2. The Tarrasque has never been defeated in this world; as spec'd in the MM, it is not immortal and does not regenerate, so if it had ever been defeated, it would no longer exist. Therefore, no lore check or knowledge check can reveal how to defeat it. What you'll get from such checks is that it reflects spells and is apparently immune to weapons.


    Proposed upgrades to the Tarrasque that might make it CR 30, each one separate.

    1. It can eat anything that's organic. Trees, bulettes, any dragon dumb enough to be caught, you name it. When it eats, it recovers lost HP at a rate of one HP per ten pounds of organic matter. A Tarrasque that seizes and devours a medium creature regains fifteen or twenty HP. A Tarrasque that eats an oak tree regains a hundred or more, although this may require more than one round - DM ruling as to how much a tree weighs and the time needed to treat it like a celery stick.
    2. The Frightful Presence becomes larger and more persistent. If you fail your save you must flee for one minute; when you return, you must save again, and will flee again if you fail. Each time you fail and flee the DC increases by 1. The radius of the FP extends 600' in all directions.
    3. Like giants, the Tarrasque is skilled at throwing boulders, and adds its strength modifier and proficiency to ranged attacks. It can throw anything weighing up to and including one ton


    EDIT:

    This may not be enough to deserve CR 30, but I will throw it out there.

    As a Legendary Action, the Tarrasque can Rampage. When the Tarrasque rampages, it destroys anything near it - dirt, trees, rocks, buildings. This raises a cloud of dust and debris granting the Tarrasque 50% cover. The Tarrasque can only Rampage in response to an attack that actually damages it.
    Last edited by Shining Wrath; 2014-10-09 at 11:44 AM.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Title says it all. We have a long debate going on here about various ways for beating Big T.

    Without repeating a several hundred post series of arguments, there are ways to defeat a Tarrasque that are feasible at levels lower than 20, to say nothing of 30. Most of them rely upon flight or ranged attack + kite.

    My question, then, is what would a Tarrasque look like if it really truly was CR 30?

    Design desiderata:
    1. Add as little as possible. The IKEA Tarrasque is right out. Let us show tasteful restraint.
    2. Stay as close as possible to the essence of Big T. The idea of a primal force of nature awakening from centuries of slumber and wreaking near-mindless physical havoc should be retained. While a Tarrasque with CHA=30 and 30 levels of Sorcerer is hilarious, but it's not really Big T.


    Constraints on the proposed ways of beating the Tarrasque are perhaps necessary to inform our design, so let me list some.
    1. The chances of casting a ritual successfully if a Concentration check is required, even given 95% chance of passing it each round, are approximately one in 25 trillion. Therefore, you cannot perform rituals while riding at any pace faster than a walk, or riding a flying creature at all; nor can you perform a ritual while evading attacks from the Tarrasque, even if you are somehow immune to them. 50' of raging reptile is a distraction no matter what abjurations surround you.
    2. The Tarrasque has never been defeated in this world; it is, as spec'd in the MM, it is not immortal and does not regenerate, so if it had ever been defeated, it would no longer exist. Therefore, no lore check or knowledge check can reveal how to defeat it. What you'll get from such checks is that it reflects spells and is apparently immune to weapons.


    Proposed upgrades to the Tarrasque that might make it CR 30, each one separate.

    1. It can eat anything that's organic. Trees, bulettes, any dragon dumb enough to be caught, you name it. When it eats, it recovers lost HP at a rate of one HP per ten pounds of organic matter. A Tarrasque that seizes and devours a medium creature regains fifteen or twenty HP. A Tarrasque that eats an oak tree regains a hundred or more, although this may require more than one round - DM ruling as to how much a tree weighs and the time needed to treat it like a celery stick.
    2. The Frightful Presence becomes larger and more persistent. If you fail your save you must flee for one minute; when you return, you must save again, and will flee again if you fail. Each time you fail and flee the DC increases by 1. The radius of the FP extends 600' in all directions.
    3. Like giants, the Tarrasque is skilled at throwing boulders, and adds its strength modifier and proficiency to ranged attacks. It can throw anything weighing up to and including one ton
    Easiest thing would be to add quills he can fire from range from his hide.

    Big T can Fire Quills from His Hide as a Legendary Action or Attack Action. Quills can attack creatures up to 300 feat away or up to 1200 with disadvantage. The Terrasque Quills are the size of small ballista bolts and deal 2d6 + 10 damage +19 to hit.

    Perhaps consider letting him fire quills similar to the ranger's volley ability as well.
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-09 at 10:59 AM.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    Easiest thing would be to add quills he can fire from range from his hide.

    Big T can Fire Quills from His Hide as a Legendary Action or Attack Action. Quills can attack creatures up to 300 feat away or up to 1200 with disadvantage. The Terrasque Quills are the size of small ballista bolts and deal 2d6 + 10 damage +19 to hit.

    Perhaps consider letting him fire quills similar to the ranger's volley ability as well.
    I dislike this for two reasons:
    1) Having an infinite supply of quills makes him sort-of magical rather than physical. Where do all these quills come from?
    2) He now looks like a porcupine or manticore, rather than like Big T

    However, the idea of grabbing handfuls (pawfuls?) of stuff and making multiple attacks with a single throw is OK.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    My preferred solution is to give him a burrow speed of say 40 feet, plus regeneration. Doesn't even need to be that high, 5 or 10 would probably do. Then if anyone tried the kiting/flying strategy on him, he could burrow and force them to descend into his burrows to take him down, or allow him to tunnel to his next populated destination and then lay waste to it.

    It's simple, doesn't mess with his 'feel' much at all (arguably returns it a bit to its roots), and I think it would disqualify the most ridiculous low level tarrasque-kill strategies.
    For playable monster adventurers who would attract more than a few glances at the local tavern, check out my homebrew monster races!

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I dislike this for two reasons:
    1) Having an infinite supply of quills makes him sort-of magical rather than physical. Where do all these quills come from?
    2) He now looks like a porcupine or manticore, rather than like Big T

    However, the idea of grabbing handfuls (pawfuls?) of stuff and making multiple attacks with a single throw is OK.
    I was imaging the quills more beneath the skin and by flexing his massive body he could force them out of predefined pores / slits / slots whatever the anatomically correct term is.

    Though for more thematic flair you could just give him two just cannons on his back via Blastoise ;)

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    I was imaging the quills more beneath the skin and by flexing his massive body he could force them out of predefined pores / slits / slots whatever the anatomically correct term is.

    Though for more thematic flair you could just give him two just cannons on his back via Blastoise ;)
    Or a Godzilla like breath weapon - but again, I'm trying to keep the "tears things apart with bare hands" feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Mirror View Post
    My preferred solution is to give him a burrow speed of say 40 feet, plus regeneration. Doesn't even need to be that high, 5 or 10 would probably do. Then if anyone tried the kiting/flying strategy on him, he could burrow and force them to descend into his burrows to take him down, or allow him to tunnel to his next populated destination and then lay waste to it.

    It's simple, doesn't mess with his 'feel' much at all (arguably returns it a bit to its roots), and I think it would disqualify the most ridiculous low level tarrasque-kill strategies.
    You could probably get away with only regeneration - if you're relying on spamming Sacred Flame, or firing arrows with a low probability of hit per round regeneration of 10 HP / round would make things difficult, and 20 HP / round makes things tough indeed.

    The problem with regeneration is that now you've got an immortal Tarrasque unless the party not only reduces Big T to 0, but keeps on hitting his fallen body until he's at -650. That's dozens of rounds of beating a dead Tarrasque.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Or a Godzilla like breath weapon - but again, I'm trying to keep the "tears things apart with bare hands" feel.
    You're really only left with 2 choices then, He has to threaten at range or defend at range.

    Sicne you want his hand and claws only you've limited yourself to he throws objects. Which is a pain from a DM stance, how big are the objects what do they weigh what's an appropriate damage amount, how far can he throw x pounds etc.

    From an encounter level It's easier say he throws x, fires x, shoots x, sprays x for a set range and damage.

    As for defense you have to protect him from the ranged kitey flying maneuvers.

    He can roll into a ball so only his protective carapace is exposed while doing this his AC increased by 5 etc and maybe other stats

    I liked the burrow and regenerate idea

    He slams his feet/claws to the ground or together creating the windwall effect, he can do this as a legendary action and lasts until his next turn. or other such creative defenses
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-09 at 11:33 AM.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    I tend to think "CR 30" has more to do with the numbers in the statblock. Given that I agree with Steel Mirror that a burrow speed would take care of most issues, I'd just brush it with a very light touch of RAI. The Siege Monster feature and the ridiculous 30 Str just implies to me that it can pretty much open up anything at its leisure. The DMG will probably have more rules about the AC/HP of objects, but the big T's stats make it "burrow" at the speed of plot as far as I'm concerned.

    If you're still not satisfied, instead of house ruling the Tarrasque, place it under the control of your BBEG. An evil spellcaster in a position to buff the Tarrasque can really ruin the PCs' day.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    You're really only left with 2 choices then, He has to threaten at range or defend at range.

    Sicne you want his hand and claws only you've limited yourself to he throws objects. Which is a pain from a DM stance, how big are the objects what do they weigh what's an appropriate damage amount, how far can he throw x pounds etc.

    From an encounter level It's easier say he throws x, fires x, shoots x, sprays x for a set range and damage.

    As for defense you have to protect him from the ranged kitey flying maneuvers.

    He can roll into a ball so only his protective carapace is exposed while doing this his AC increased by 5 etc and maybe other stats

    I liked the burrow and regenerate idea

    He slams his feet/claws to the ground or together creating the windwall effect, he can do this as a legendary action and lasts until his next turn. or other such creative defenses
    I thought the Fear radius was an effective defense against poking with ranged weapons - you have to keep coming back, you get off a few shots and then fear kicks in again. Although I don't like the idea that our party of Heroes keeps fleeing in fear, this *is* supposed to be the most fearsome creature on the Prime Material.

    Your Legendary Action that creates Wind Wall is a good idea - but that means the Tarrasque is noticing / caring about these little pin pricks. It's still a good thought, though.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    The problem with regeneration is that now you've got an immortal Tarrasque unless the party not only reduces Big T to 0, but keeps on hitting his fallen body until he's at -650. That's dozens of rounds of beating a dead Tarrasque.
    There are a couple ways to deal with that one, but my preference is to have him be vulnerable to a coup-de-grace that meets certain criteria. Ideally, you could supply a list of possible criteria from which the DM could choose one that best suits his game, or even invent his own. The list might look like:

    • Must be struck in a final blow by the ancient blade of Lady Cymnea, who gave her life to stop the tarrasque's advance 600 years ago and wounded it unto death before expiring herself.
    • Must be beheaded and burned on a pyre of blessed oak wood, the holy tree of the god of nature who swore ancient enmity against the tarrasque and longs to see it slain for good.
    • The tarrasque cannot be wholly slain, but if it is rendered unconscious, its heart can be drawn out and encased in a coffin of cold-forged iron, which will prevent it from rising again so long as its bones and its heart are never allowed to reunite.
    • If defeated, it can be finally laid to rest by scattering soil from a far-away blasted desert across its supine body. This distant wasteland is the place where it first rose to plague the world, and interring it beneath that same earth will allow it to finally rest.


    Since the DM gets to choose from the list, that stops players from reading the MM and assuming that they know how to defeat the big T. It also lets you make defeating him into a whole quest and adventure instead of just a single fight. You don't just have to take down the unstoppable engine of destruction, you have to research its origins and determine what force will stop him for good, all while the clock is ticking and he is approaching his next target.
    For playable monster adventurers who would attract more than a few glances at the local tavern, check out my homebrew monster races!

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    I tend to think "CR 30" has more to do with the numbers in the statblock. Given that I agree with Steel Mirror that a burrow speed would take care of most issues, I'd just brush it with a very light touch of RAI. The Siege Monster feature and the ridiculous 30 Str just implies to me that it can pretty much open up anything at its leisure. The DMG will probably have more rules about the AC/HP of objects, but the big T's stats make it "burrow" at the speed of plot as far as I'm concerned.

    If you're still not satisfied, instead of house ruling the Tarrasque, place it under the control of your BBEG. An evil spellcaster in a position to buff the Tarrasque can really ruin the PCs' day.
    In the other thread someone mentioned evil druids casting Awaken and then healing Big T. Imagine an intelligent Tarrasque carefully considering how to deal with the pesky riders - e.g., uproot a tree and as you fly over it leaps up and uses the tree as a flyswatter.

    Burrow is almost TOO good. How does the party keep the Tarrasque from destroying the city if it can burrow under the city, pop up, drop down, burrow some more - pops up right in the middle of the palace, inside the temple of Pelor, under the city walls. The party is now playing whack-a-mole with the Mole From Hell.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Mirror View Post
    There are a couple ways to deal with that one, but my preference is to have him be vulnerable to a coup-de-grace that meets certain criteria. Ideally, you could supply a list of possible criteria from which the DM could choose one that best suits his game, or even invent his own. The list might look like:

    • Must be struck in a final blow by the ancient blade of Lady Cymnea, who gave her life to stop the tarrasque's advance 600 years ago and wounded it unto death before expiring herself.
    • Must be beheaded and burned on a pyre of blessed oak wood, the holy tree of the god of nature who swore ancient enmity against the tarrasque and longs to see it slain for good.
    • The tarrasque cannot be wholly slain, but if it is rendered unconscious, its heart can be drawn out and encased in a coffin of cold-forged iron, which will prevent it from rising again so long as its bones and its heart are never allowed to reunite.
    • If defeated, it can be finally laid to rest by scattering soil from a far-away blasted desert across its supine body. This distant wasteland is the place where it first rose to plague the world, and interring it beneath that same earth will allow it to finally rest.


    Since the DM gets to choose from the list, that stops players from reading the MM and assuming that they know how to defeat the big T. It also lets you make defeating him into a whole quest and adventure instead of just a single fight. You don't just have to take down the unstoppable engine of destruction, you have to research its origins and determine what force will stop him for good, all while the clock is ticking and he is approaching his next target.
    I like this approach; shutting down the Tarrasque's regeneration is a bit more complicated than dousing a troll in oil. I don't like the idea that the Tarrasque has been defeated before, because that allows munchkins to say "I take 20 on my Intelligence(History) check in the city library! How can the Tarrasque be defeated?".

    Party defeats Tarrasque; Tarrasque gets up after a few minutes, roars, and runs away to recuperate; party realizes they need more information, and a quest to learn how you keep this thing down ensues.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Burrow is almost TOO good. How does the party keep the Tarrasque from destroying the city if it can burrow under the city, pop up, drop down, burrow some more - pops up right in the middle of the palace, inside the temple of Pelor, under the city walls. The party is now playing whack-a-mole with the Mole From Hell.
    Ideally, I'd like for the big T to be able to draw the party in to an underground battle, which neutralizes flight and ranged attack advantages that they may have. If they aren't resorting to such tactics, though, and actually are willing to engage it in melee even on the surface, to my mind there would be no need for him to burrow. The tarrasque (IMO) is a creature that thinks in straight lines. If nothing around it is moving, it heads for the nearest place where it can cause some havoc. If something is attacking it (or just existing within eyesight of it), it tears it apart. Only if something is attacking it and it has no way to reach the annoying bastards does it burrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I don't like the idea that the Tarrasque has been defeated before, because that allows munchkins to say "I take 20 on my Intelligence(History) check in the city library! How can the Tarrasque be defeated?".
    Probably a good point, I might not use that one! The whole point is to make the tarrasque terrifying again, after all.
    Last edited by Steel Mirror; 2014-10-09 at 12:01 PM.
    For playable monster adventurers who would attract more than a few glances at the local tavern, check out my homebrew monster races!

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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    To be honest I've yet to see a single issue that isn't solved by giving him a giant style rock throw.

    Realistically his stats already make most magic low impact, and melee a very dangerous game. Poking him to death is clearly the safe play, and given the Godzilla style theme that's almost certainly what the designers intended. Giving him a ranged attack just dangerous enough to threaten people who have no business fighting him fixes it so far as I see.
    Last edited by silveralen; 2014-10-09 at 12:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by silveralen View Post
    To be honest I've yet to see a single issue that isn't solved by giving him a giant style rock throw.

    Realistically his stats already make most magic low impact, and melee a very dangerous game. Poking him to death is clearly the safe play, and given the Godzilla style theme that's almost certainly what the designers intended. Giving him a ranged attack just dangerous enough to threaten people who have no business fighting him fixes it so far as I see.
    I agree if you make him threaten at range, the fly and kite arguments are invalid.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Mirror View Post
    Ideally, I'd like for the big T to be able to draw the party in to an underground battle, which neutralizes flight and ranged attack advantages that they may have. If they aren't resorting to such tactics, though, and actually are willing to engage it in melee even on the surface, to my mind there would be no need for him to burrow. The tarrasque (IMO) is a creature that thinks in straight lines. If nothing around it is moving, it heads for the nearest place where it can cause some havoc. If something is attacking it (or just existing within eyesight of it), it tears it apart. Only if something is attacking it and it has no way to reach the annoying bastards does it burrow.
    I think we've got it.

    Give it a burrow speed, but the Tarrasque dislikes burrowing because the burrow speed is only 20'. The Tarrasque burrows when injured for more than 50% of base HP.

    And then it takes a long rest. For a long rest, it regains 33 HP. If that doesn't get it to 50%, it takes yet another long rest.

    Each long rest has a chance of turning into a centuries-long slumber. The chance depends on how much the Tarrasque ate prior to burrowing; a hungry Tarrasque is a restless Tarrasque.

    The party doesn't know this. All they know is that it dug a hole and hid. If they let it go, it may pop out after recuperation. If they follow it down, though - close combat. The Tarrasque instinctively digs a winding path, with occasional vertical drops of 20' or so. When they reach the Tarrasque it will be with sightlines of much less than one round's move.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Sining_Wrath
    You could probably get away with only regeneration - if you're relying on spamming Sacred Flame, or firing arrows with a low probability of hit per round regeneration of 10 HP / round would make things difficult, and 20 HP / round makes things tough indeed.

    The problem with regeneration is that now you've got an immortal Tarrasque unless the party not only reduces Big T to 0, but keeps on hitting his fallen body until he's at -650. That's dozens of rounds of beating a dead Tarrasque.
    There aren't negative hit points in 5e, however. There are only death saving throws, which you can hack through with extreme ease (a creature only gets 3, normally). So no, you don't need to sit there smacking it for dozens of rounds (unless you make it so the big T needs to fail ~40 death saving throws before kicking the bucket. In which case...), and if they spend dozens of rounds, the Terrasque will get back up after 3 successes (So basically 3 rounds, given the whole +10 con and death saving throws being DC 10...), start regenerating and then begin to murder again.

    Or you could pull a troll and just say that the terrasque isn't even stunned by hitting 0 HP and only dies if you somehow negate the regeneration and it's at/ you reduce it to 0 HP. Vampires have this too, so it's not like it's unheard of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I like this approach; shutting down the Tarrasque's regeneration is a bit more complicated than dousing a troll in oil. I don't like the idea that the Tarrasque has been defeated before, because that allows munchkins to say "I take 20 on my Intelligence(History) check in the city library! How can the Tarrasque be defeated?".

    Party defeats Tarrasque; Tarrasque gets up after a few minutes, roars, and runs away to recuperate; party realizes they need more information, and a quest to learn how you keep this thing down ensues.
    Just remember, taking 20 isn't a thing in 5e either. And even then, this sounds like a DC 30 check (finding something that shouldn't possibly exist), so until level 13, the odds of this working should literally be 0...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I think we've got it.

    Give it a burrow speed, but the Tarrasque dislikes burrowing because the burrow speed is only 20'. The Tarrasque burrows when injured for more than 50% of base HP.

    And then it takes a long rest. For a long rest, it regains 33 HP. If that doesn't get it to 50%, it takes yet another long rest.

    Each long rest has a chance of turning into a centuries-long slumber. The chance depends on how much the Tarrasque ate prior to burrowing; a hungry Tarrasque is a restless Tarrasque.

    The party doesn't know this. All they know is that it dug a hole and hid. If they let it go, it may pop out after recuperation. If they follow it down, though - close combat. The Tarrasque instinctively digs a winding path, with occasional vertical drops of 20' or so. When they reach the Tarrasque it will be with sightlines of much less than one round's move.
    Just remember, it doesn't have to long rest to regain HP (and if it did, its HP total would be reset according to the rules). Instead it can short rest, which allows it to spend any number of its 44 1d20+10 hit dice to recover from its injuries.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I dislike this for two reasons:
    1) Having an infinite supply of quills makes him sort-of magical rather than physical. Where do all these quills come from?
    2) He now looks like a porcupine or manticore, rather than like Big T

    However, the idea of grabbing handfuls (pawfuls?) of stuff and making multiple attacks with a single throw is OK.
    how does he support himself given the square cube law? Why doesn't he take damage when he demolishes a building? What's the deal with airline food?

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybren View Post
    how does he support himself given the square cube law? Why doesn't he take damage when he demolishes a building? What's the deal with airline food?
    He doesn't support himself, he dances on the puppet strings of the gods!
    The building didn't hit his AC!
    I know! Could this stuff taste any worse?
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    I agree if you make him threaten at range, the fly and kite arguments are invalid.
    They're not invalid in that case, they're just non-trivial.

    I really like the burrow option, combined with a willingness on the Tarrasque's part to break contact at < 50% HP.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomes2169 View Post
    So basically 3 rounds, given the whole +10 con and death saving throws being DC 10...
    I thought CON bonuses didn't affect death saving throws--they are unmodified rolls unless I misremember.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    In the other thread someone mentioned evil druids casting Awaken and then healing Big T. Imagine an intelligent Tarrasque carefully considering how to deal with the pesky riders - e.g., uproot a tree and as you fly over it leaps up and uses the tree as a flyswatter.

    Burrow is almost TOO good. How does the party keep the Tarrasque from destroying the city if it can burrow under the city, pop up, drop down, burrow some more - pops up right in the middle of the palace, inside the temple of Pelor, under the city walls. The party is now playing whack-a-mole with the Mole From Hell.
    I'm of the opinion that Big T should be able to burrow into the center of the earth and rip the planet in half so I'm in favour of the Burrow plan. I'd do all of the above. Regeneration, Burrow Speed, and Godzilla style breath weapon. Essentially a Meteor Swarm on recharge 6 IMO.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    In my current 5E campaign world the Tarrasque was dominated by a 20th level caster (Elven Empress) and was penned up in an underground vault until it was needed for combat. The ease at which it can be defeated by itself meant that each side in an inter-planetary war between Mindflayers and Elves ended up controlling it and using it as a weapon.

    I don't think the Tarrasque needs to be a threat in a vacuum against a high level party, it can be a threat alongside its allies quite handily. The immunity to none-magical damage means everyone wants one, and its lack of ranged weapons or flying means certain lifeforms can safely be around it.

    So if you did not want to have it controlled by a civilization you may find it surrounded by flying scavengers who eat the carrion it leaves behind and are territorial against other fliers. "The Beast looms like a mountain in the distance, its shadow crossing the valley and its outline illuminated by the setting sun. A throng of Wyverns circle around it, diving at the creatures that scatter from its path. The awesome maw turns towards you and lets loose a earth shaking roar as it sees its prey, the sound echoing across the valley dislodging leaves and branches as it goes. The mountain behind you shivers and shakes off a wall of earth which quickly covers the path out of the valley. The landslide shudders to a stop as the creature begins to lope towards you, wyverns in tow. You are trapped."

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomes2169 View Post
    There aren't negative hit points in 5e, however. There are only death saving throws, which you can hack through with extreme ease (a creature only gets 3, normally). So no, you don't need to sit there smacking it for dozens of rounds (unless you make it so the big T needs to fail ~40 death saving throws before kicking the bucket. In which case...), and if they spend dozens of rounds, the Terrasque will get back up after 3 successes (So basically 3 rounds, given the whole +10 con and death saving throws being DC 10...), start regenerating and then begin to murder again.

    Or you could pull a troll and just say that the terrasque isn't even stunned by hitting 0 HP and only dies if you somehow negate the regeneration and it's at/ you reduce it to 0 HP. Vampires have this too, so it's not like it's unheard of.



    Just remember, taking 20 isn't a thing in 5e either. And even then, this sounds like a DC 30 check (finding something that shouldn't possibly exist), so until level 13, the odds of this working should literally be 0...



    Just remember, it doesn't have to long rest to regain HP (and if it did, its HP total would be reset according to the rules). Instead it can short rest, which allows it to spend any number of its 44 1d20+10 hit dice to recover from its injuries.
    I don't think the Tarrasque should get the same benefit from a short rest as a PC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybren View Post
    how does he support himself given the square cube law? Why doesn't he take damage when he demolishes a building? What's the deal with airline food?
    Square-cube: He has both a skeleton AND an exoskeleton, which also serves as armor for a monstrous win-win.
    Buildings: are the buildings doing bludgeoning damage that is not magical? I believe they are.
    Airline food: Airlines are lawful evil. They serve you the cheapest, least appetizing items that meet the technical definition of "meal".
    Last edited by Shining Wrath; 2014-10-09 at 04:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Honestly I'd give it an absurdly high regen. Something like 30, 40, or even 50 hp per turn. And that's it. Kite it all you want, it's healing faster then you hurt it.

    Then if you reduce it to below 30% HP it retreats to go back to sleep/rampage elsewhere.

    Perhaps a 5 ft per turn burrow speed would work as well.
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Regeneration: The Tarrasque regenerates 30 hit points at the beginning of its turn, as long as it has 1 hit point remaining. Once per year, the Tarrasque regenerates to full hit points regardless of what state it is in. This is usually on an equinox or a solstice. Only a specifically worded wish spell can prevent this regeneration.

    Spines. Ranged Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: (2d10 + 10) piercing damage

    Multiattack. The tarrasque can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes five attacks: one with its bite, two with its claws, one with its horns, and one with its tail. It can use its Swallow instead of its bite. Or it can fire 3 spines.

    It shoots its spines like the Pathfinder version and thus the Tarrasques weakness is solved. It's spines are much weaker then it's normal attacks and it can't use as many so it will still prefer to crush things at close range.

    With these things added I doubt any level 20 party of 4 can defeat it. Let alone a Wizard trying to Kite it.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    I also vote for it's frightful presence to be replaced with outright fear that you never become immune to.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    The problem with regeneration is that now you've got an immortal Tarrasque unless the party not only reduces Big T to 0, but keeps on hitting his fallen body until he's at -650. That's dozens of rounds of beating a dead Tarrasque.
    Hardly. A Paladin that goes all-out on smites can pump out over 100 damage per round even without much optimization. I don't see why a party of 4-6 should have too much trouble killing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    In the other thread someone mentioned evil druids casting Awaken and then healing Big T. Imagine an intelligent Tarrasque carefully considering how to deal with the pesky riders - e.g., uproot a tree and as you fly over it leaps up and uses the tree as a flyswatter.
    Tarrasque with Wizard Levels

    melee a very dangerous game.
    A L20 Barbarian can easily withstand four direct hits from a tarrasque. I don't think it's all that dangerous.
    Last edited by Strill; 2014-10-09 at 09:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Buildings: are the buildings doing bludgeoning damage that is not magical? I believe they are.
    so what you're saying is he has a magical ability?

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    That was pretty darned epic.
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