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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    I'd give the tarrasque a few perks, since to me, the Tarrasque is a Giant Tokyo-smashing Monster.

    I'm bad at phrasing things in legalese, so here's the overview:

    Breath of ****you - Once per short rest, the tarrasque can unleash a devastating beam of damage up in a line 600' long and 15' wide. Anything within the beam takes (Reasonably high amount of Damage for a CR 30 beast), or half on a DC 17 Dexterity save. Any time within the round after unleashing the beam, the tarrasque can, as a Legendary Action, sweep the beam in up to a 150 degree arc. (Inspired by Godzilla's Nuclear Breath, and given a boost for drama... though it's probably unnecessary to be able to sweep it.)

    Antimagic Pulse - As an action once per short rest, the Tarrasque can unleash a 150' radius pulse of antimagic energy that dispels and disrupts all ongoing magical effects. (Inspired by that EMP pulse from Pacific Rim).

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Some ideas you might appreciate:

    -make it five times larger.
    -100ft high jump and/or long jump.
    -No laserbreath, but a sonic shout that deafens people and also knocks things over and/or breaks them.
    -Each attack it makes is against everything in a 50ft cone.
    -It gets "lair" actions in any city, where the rubble from buildings he's currently destroying falls and lands on PCs who fail to make DEX saves.
    -"Casts" Earthquake.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I don't think the Tarrasque should get the same benefit from a short rest as a PC.
    Well, it does. Just like everything else in the Monster Manual.

  4. - Top - End - #34

    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by LaserFace View Post
    Some ideas you might appreciate:

    -make it five times larger.
    -100ft high jump and/or long jump.
    -No laserbreath, but a sonic shout that deafens people and also knocks things over and/or breaks them.
    I love all of these, in particular the shout. Reading the first page of this thread I had a similar thought only in addition to deafening people it's terrible earsplitting roar could also:
    -Cause damage: From the sheer concussive force or frequency. This is independent of a creature's capacity to hear. Damage could be inversely proportional to a target's distance from the Big T.
    -Stun on a failed save: Much like the sonic component of a concussion or stun grenade works.
    -Cause terror on a failed save. Creatures that fail must move away from Big T as fast as possible for X rounds and are frightened for Y rounds, where X= save DC - PC save roll = 0.5*Y. Creatures that succeed (or fail) receive negative modifiers to saving throws vs subsequent fear checks for Z rds: Big T is an incarnate nightmare, a primal force of destruction. Hear his roar, tremble and despair!

    Choose a save DC that is difficult for level 20 characters to succeed at, and impossible for characters in their teens. Worm! You dare not even approach big T, let alone think to attack him! If your two-bit, ragtag band of level 15 pants-****ters, with your +3 ranged weapons & your chest of potions, are somehow foolish and unfortunate enough to look on Big T, the short remainder of your miserable lives will be accompanied by the soundtrack of big T's laughter! Only by laughter we mean a mind-melting, earth-rending roar! (Also, big T doesn't have a sense of humor.) An apocalyptic howl that is the aural distillate of bottomless hunger, of endless destruction! The sound of the Thing That Should Not Be, But Is....fly munchkins, fly!

    I think it would be an appropriate feature for the creature; Big T must have a huge set of pipes. And I think it fits the OP's concept of preserving the spirit of big T.

  5. - Top - End - #35

    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Title says it all. We have a long debate going on here about various ways for beating Big T.

    Proposed upgrades to the Tarrasque that might make it CR 30, each one separate.

    1. It can eat anything that's organic. Trees, bulettes, any dragon dumb enough to be caught, you name it. When it eats, it recovers lost HP at a rate of one HP per ten pounds of organic matter. A Tarrasque that seizes and devours a medium creature regains fifteen or twenty HP. A Tarrasque that eats an oak tree regains a hundred or more, although this may require more than one round - DM ruling as to how much a tree weighs and the time needed to treat it like a celery stick.
    2. The Frightful Presence becomes larger and more persistent. If you fail your save you must flee for one minute; when you return, you must save again, and will flee again if you fail. Each time you fail and flee the DC increases by 1. The radius of the FP extends 600' in all directions.
    3. Like giants, the Tarrasque is skilled at throwing boulders, and adds its strength modifier and proficiency to ranged attacks. It can throw anything weighing up to and including one ton


    EDIT:

    This may not be enough to deserve CR 30, but I will throw it out there.

    As a Legendary Action, the Tarrasque can Rampage. When the Tarrasque rampages, it destroys anything near it - dirt, trees, rocks, buildings. This raises a cloud of dust and debris granting the Tarrasque 50% cover. The Tarrasque can only Rampage in response to an attack that actually damages it.
    Sniped

    I think all of these are nice as well. Given how scary ol' T is, I might even amend Frightful Presence to have a range of 600' in all directions OR when a creature can see or hear Big T.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybren View Post
    so what you're saying is he has a magical ability?
    I'm saying that he, like many creatures, is granted immunity to weapons that aren't magical - in this case, by a very thick hide.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Valraukar View Post
    I love all of these, in particular the shout. Reading the first page of this thread I had a similar thought only in addition to deafening people it's terrible earsplitting roar could also:
    -Cause damage: From the sheer concussive force or frequency. This is independent of a creature's capacity to hear. Damage could be inversely proportional to a target's distance from the Big T.
    -Stun on a failed save: Much like the sonic component of a concussion or stun grenade works.
    -Cause terror on a failed save. Creatures that fail must move away from Big T as fast as possible for X rounds and are frightened for Y rounds, where X= save DC - PC save roll = 0.5*Y. Creatures that succeed (or fail) receive negative modifiers to saving throws vs subsequent fear checks for Z rds: Big T is an incarnate nightmare, a primal force of destruction. Hear his roar, tremble and despair!

    Choose a save DC that is difficult for level 20 characters to succeed at, and impossible for characters in their teens. Worm! You dare not even approach big T, let alone think to attack him! If your two-bit, ragtag band of level 15 pants-****ters, with your +3 ranged weapons & your chest of potions, are somehow foolish and unfortunate enough to look on Big T, the short remainder of your miserable lives will be accompanied by the soundtrack of big T's laughter! Only by laughter we mean a mind-melting, earth-rending roar! (Also, big T doesn't have a sense of humor.) An apocalyptic howl that is the aural distillate of bottomless hunger, of endless destruction! The sound of the Thing That Should Not Be, But Is....fly munchkins, fly!

    I think it would be an appropriate feature for the creature; Big T must have a huge set of pipes. And I think it fits the OP's concept of preserving the spirit of big T.
    Quote Originally Posted by Valraukar View Post
    I love all of these, in particular the shout. Reading the first page of this thread I had a similar thought only in addition to deafening people it's terrible earsplitting roar could also:
    -Cause damage: From the sheer concussive force or frequency. This is independent of a creature's capacity to hear. Damage could be inversely proportional to a target's distance from the Big T.
    -Stun on a failed save: Much like the sonic component of a concussion or stun grenade works.
    -Cause terror on a failed save. Creatures that fail must move away from Big T as fast as possible for X rounds and are frightened for Y rounds, where X= save DC - PC save roll = 0.5*Y. Creatures that succeed (or fail) receive negative modifiers to saving throws vs subsequent fear checks for Z rds: Big T is an incarnate nightmare, a primal force of destruction. Hear his roar, tremble and despair!
    This is pretty cool, but this...

    Choose a save DC that is difficult for level 20 characters to succeed at, and impossible for characters in their teens. Worm! You dare not even approach big T, let alone think to attack him!
    ... can't be done in 5E, unless you want to move the DC from "difficulty" to "nigh-impossible" for a Level 20 character. At Level 20, most characters have primary saves in the +9 to +11 range, with a few having extra benefits. At Level 12, most characters have primary saves in the +6 to +8 range. If the DC of the Tarrasque's roar is, say, 25, most Level 20 people will fail, yeah, but Level 12 people still have a shot at succeeding. (Heck, a Level 5 person can have a bonus of +7, giving them a 15% chance of success.)
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Anyone else think maybe Big T is just misunderstood, he hides for centuries alone, contemplating life, his purpose, what's he's doing on this plane. Why he is is hated, and the only one of his kind, until the lonliness is too much to bear and he emerges from his lair to look for answers, to find a mate, or maybe just a friend. But everywhere he goes armies rise to fight him, adventure's try to kill him until he returns to his isolation riddled with holes, for centuries more of loneliness. Above he can hear the vibrations and celebrations of the civilizations above joyful that he is gone and banished.
    Last edited by Ramshack; 2014-10-10 at 10:18 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    I kind of want there to be some overwhelmingly bad consequence of actually killing the Tarrasque. Like, the Tarrasque is some sort of "protector" of the world and it's threat is the only think keeping some sort of evil at bay. Killing T releases this. Keeping with this theme, the bad guy could have tried to awaken the Tarrasque for the express purpose of getting it killed by the heroes. The heroes celebrate killing it, only to find that things are now much worse.
    Last edited by micahwc; 2014-10-10 at 10:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by micahwc View Post
    I kind of want there to be some overwhelmingly bad consequence of actually killing the Tarrasque. Like, the Tarrasque is some sort of "protector" of the world and it's threat is the only think keeping some sort of evil at bay. Killing T releases this. Keeping with this theme, the bad guy could have tried to awaken the Tarrasque for the express purpose of getting it killed by the heroes. The heroes celebrate killing it, only to find that things are now much worse.
    Kinda like Final Fantasy 7's resident Kaiju, the Weapons. They were essentially, the planet's immune system and were destroying humanity because we pollute (not ham-fisted at all...). Maybe make the Tarrasque an ancient nature proto-god that manifests from time to time, rampages around leveling populated areas and then goes back to sleep, allowing the desolated place to return to its natural state. Killing it, stops this cycle and changes the ecosystem in some fashion, maybe plants don't grow anymore, animals become mutated become some strange disease afflicts everything. Maybe the Tarrasque naturally produced the antidote into the local atmosphere but had to eat everything to do this and now with it being dead, nothing can stop this naturally.

  11. - Top - End - #41

    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by D-naras View Post
    Kinda like Final Fantasy 7's resident Kaiju, the Weapons. They were essentially, the planet's immune system and were destroying humanity because we pollute (not ham-fisted at all...). Maybe make the Tarrasque an ancient nature proto-god that manifests from time to time, rampages around leveling populated areas and then goes back to sleep, allowing the desolated place to return to its natural state. Killing it, stops this cycle and changes the ecosystem in some fashion, maybe plants don't grow anymore, animals become mutated become some strange disease afflicts everything. Maybe the Tarrasque naturally produced the antidote into the local atmosphere but had to eat everything to do this and now with it being dead, nothing can stop this naturally.
    Interesting stuff but probably fit for a different thread. This is veering way off target from the OP topic.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    Anyone else think maybe Big T is just misunderstood, he hides for centuries alone, contemplating life, his purpose, what's he's doing on this plane. Why he is is hated, and the only one of his kind, until the lonliness is too much to bear and he emerges from his lair to look for answers, to find a mate, or maybe just a friend. But everywhere he goes armies rise to fight him, adventure's try to kill him until he returns to his isolation riddled with holes, for centuries more of loneliness. Above he can hear the vibrations and celebrations of the civilizations above joyful that he is gone and banished.
    And now I want to give it a hug. But I get the feeling it would hug me back. With its belly. Which is not a good thing for gnomes in the slightest. :C
    Last edited by Gnomes2169; 2014-10-10 at 12:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I'm saying that he, like many creatures, is granted immunity to weapons that aren't magical - in this case, by a very thick hide.
    so if it's just because of a thick hide than it follows that a tarrasque should be vulnerable to sufficient trauma.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    What if Tarrasque was immune to the long range band of weapons?

    Then you wouldn't need to worry about all these crazy 600' range things because longbows.
    Last edited by TheDeadlyShoe; 2014-10-10 at 01:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Oh, and I looked up death saving throws... They do in fact ignore your con bonus. Which is unfortunate imho. Maybe let the big T add it in?
    Last edited by Gnomes2169; 2014-10-10 at 01:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Give him:
    • Burrow speed
    • Regeneration
    • A breath attack at 1000' range line or something equally stupid
    • Make his digestion deal dual typed damage: bludgeoning plus acid. Resistance or immunity to one cuts damage by half, same story for vulnerability. Alternatively, make it necrotic/acid to simulate radioactivity.


    That covers his major weaknesses, including accidentally eating a shapeshifter (immunity to acid if right elemental, kill from the inside). It also fits the Godzilla theme.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2014-10-10 at 03:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Mirror View Post
    My preferred solution is to give him a burrow speed of say 40 feet, plus regeneration. Doesn't even need to be that high, 5 or 10 would probably do. Then if anyone tried the kiting/flying strategy on him, he could burrow and force them to descend into his burrows to take him down, or allow him to tunnel to his next populated destination and then lay waste to it.

    It's simple, doesn't mess with his 'feel' much at all (arguably returns it a bit to its roots), and I think it would disqualify the most ridiculous low level tarrasque-kill strategies.
    Yep, and the fluff is that it emerges from sleeping underground every few centuries.

    How can this monster perform its basic function, in the absence of any PCs of any level, if it doesn't have burrow?

    It finds a convenient hidden 50' cave no one knows about in the center of a city or something? No. It burrows.

    The fluff simply doesn't work without a burrow speed, which conveniently also largely fixes the fact that without one the monster is broken weak.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Give him:
    • Burrow speed
    • Regeneration
    • A breath attack at 1000' range line or something equally stupid
    • Make his digestion deal dual typed damage: bludgeoning plus acid. Resistance or immunity to one cuts damage by half, same story for vulnerability. Alternatively, make it necrotic/acid to simulate radioactivity.


    That covers his major weaknesses, including accidentally eating a shapeshifter (immunity to acid if right elemental, kill from the inside). It also fits the Godzilla theme.
    All good,

    The atomic breath makes and excellent variant options for unsuspecting PCs, regeneration and burrowing are a must, and I'd love to see and instantaneous earthquake effect at some reasonable interval.

    If not atomic breath then at least and improved improvised weapon throw, with magic piercing.

    Can Big T just vomit out an offending morsel if the somehow avoid the acid damage?
    all's well that ends well,
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Job View Post
    Can Big T just vomit out an offending morsel if the somehow avoid the acid damage?
    He can try to, but presumably a druid in earth elemental form (or air if they're immune to acid) can resist being vomited. There's a good chance it lets them expand to be larger than his esophagus, anyway.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybren View Post
    so if it's just because of a thick hide than it follows that a tarrasque should be vulnerable to sufficient trauma.
    Which is, evidently, more than can be generated with a non magical weapon.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Which is, evidently, more than can be generated with a non magical weapon.
    But presumably not more than can be generated by a tarrasque, so it follows that he should take damage from buildings.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    hm, ill start working, what one good trait could work...
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    hm, ill start working, what one good trait could work...
    In my opinion, I'd give him several nasty traits, any number of those listed above + whatever my evil DM heart decided on, because this fellow is supposed to be a vicious hulking primal badass with lots of sharp, nasty, pointy teeth.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    he asked for as few as possible is why i said that, if we were going for multiple its a different story all together
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Say I get swallowed by the Tarrasque. I then put a portable hole into a bag of holding. Sure we're both drawn into the Astral plane, but the Tarrasque was sucked through the portal insides first, so he comes out the other side inside out. Isn't this a foolproof way of defeating the Tarrasque?

    Also, this is a really neat way to conceptualize the implications of four-dimensional space.
    Last edited by Strill; 2014-10-13 at 06:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Strill View Post
    Say I get swallowed by the Tarrasque. I then put a bag of holding into a portable hole. Sure we're both drawn into the Astral plane, but the Tarrasque is now inside out due to having been sucked through the portal insides first. Isn't this a foolproof way of defeating the Tarrasque?

    Also, this is a really neat way to conceptualize the implications of four-dimensional space.
    This may in fact be the single most dramatic way of committing suicide ever.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    actually that may work, and you would survive it too... you have planar shift for afterward? also if that is decided not to be enough, the other way around with those might do it...

    either way, this is technically a lvl 1 commoner method to kill him with a chance of survival, i hope someone rolls that lucky on loot and that unlucky on random encounter...

    or if an npc kender manages to accidentally do it in a cross setting game...
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    actually that may work, and you would survive it too... you have planar shift for afterward? also if that is decided not to be enough, the other way around with those might do it...

    either way, this is technically a lvl 1 commoner method to kill him with a chance of survival, i hope someone rolls that lucky on loot and that unlucky on random encounter...

    or if an npc kender manages to accidentally do it in a cross setting game...
    You hope too small, infinitetech. ALL the Kenders hurl themselves down the gullet of the Tarrasque, each with their own filched portable hole and swiped bag of holding, because it's the only way to be sure.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    You hope too small, infinitetech. ALL the Kenders hurl themselves down the gullet of the Tarrasque, each with their own filched portable hole and swiped bag of holding, because it's the only way to be sure.
    wait, no, just a Kender with a ton of Simulcrums, each kitted out with +5 variants of the two items, do you know what that much magic energy being released at once somewhere a planar tear is occurring would cause? you would end up with all dimensions that ever existed suddenly having a giant train station made of a hollow tarrasque boy that's bigger on the inside and inverted decorated with Kender Simulcrum parts, in a tasteful sort of new age gore, also this means every reality ever now has a cross over link that cannot be broken... oh hey, look, Deadpool just stole slapstick's powers while kissing ensign sue who is pulling her pet Cthulhu behind her dressed in a pupa fan girl shirt... oh dear god what have we done!?! (this based on actual old school rules for what happens with certain things...)
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Thesis: The MM Tarrasque does not deserve CR 30. Problem: add features to get CR

    How 'bout this solution. One trait, one special attack.

    Regeneration 20 or so: Blah blah blah, canceled by wishing it stays dead.*

    Herald of Destruction (Recharge 5-6): The Tarrasque bellows with extreme force, knocking every creature within 100 feat of it prone. Additionally, all creatures affected must make a DC17 charisma save or be overcome by pure terror. Creatures that fail their save must spend the next 1d6 rounds running as far away from Big T as possible.

    *Because of how regeneration works in 5E, this turns late game against the tarrasque less into beating a dead horse, and more into fighting Chumbawumba.
    ke palulu o ka pono, ka ihe o Ku
    I'm building a campaign setting! Latest update: Gnomes!

    Hobhekili credit to linklele.

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