Weapon sizing question

[Tyrael]

Hey, all. I'm currently rolling up a character build for a Lizardfolk tank dude, currently a Lizardfolk2/Sorceror1/Fighter2/DragonDisciple3, stands 7'4 tall and uses a house-ruled Greathammer, basically a Greataxe (1d12, x3) that deals Bludgeoning damage. He is Medium size.

My question is this: If I wanted to increase the size of the Greathammer to a Large weapon instead of a Medium, exactly what would happen, how would that modify things, etc? From what I can tell, the 1d12 damage would increase to 3d6 and the price and weight would increase by 50%. However, would there be any attack penalty? Since it's a Greathammer, he's already wielding it with two hands. Does upping the size mean that he can still wield it with two hands? Or is he unable to wield it? Does he need Monkey Grip? Also, how does reach factor in? The base weapon has a plain ole 5-foot reach, but wielding a gigantic honkin' hammer, logically, would reach farther, right?

[Innis Cabal]

it would increase the damage, see the table in the weapons section of the PH, increase its weight, give you a penelty for using a weapon not your size..and thats about it. Taking monkey grib will allow you to use the weapon, though i think the erreta changed it, with a -2 penelty.

[Piccamo]

There would be no increase in reach and you would suffer a -4 penalty due to it being the wrong size. Monkey Grip is a bad feat, don't waste your time with it.

[broderickdruce]

Logic doesn't work in D&D. I'm currently without my books but i will try to answer to the best of my memory. No you do not get reach unless it is a reach weapon (this was discussed recently in another thread). There is a penalty, cant remember how it works, currently looking for more info. Does he need monkeygrip? probably not, Oversized Weapon Fighting maybe.

Edit: SRD on weapon sizes

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all

Edit II: Thread discussing reach
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ighlight=reach

[Innis Cabal]

monkey grip is not a bad feat. Say you want to use a great sword and shield, a -2 to your attack is pitiling to the extra defense and damage you can deal. Use it with oversized two weapon fighting and you have a neat little combo. Not to mention if you want to use a large great sword and dont want to take the -4 which hurts more then a -2. Just dont mix it with the power attack chain and you wont have much problem

[Matthew]

Monkey Grip would, perhaps, not be a bad Feat if it worked like that, but it doesn't. A Medium Sized Character cannot use a Great Sword in one hand via Monkey Grip. He can use a Large Long Sword or Bastard Sword with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, however.

In answer to the original poster's question, upping the size of a Great Hammer to Large would mean that your Medium Lizard Folk Character would be unable to use it. Download the D&D FAQ from the Wizards Website, it has a table showing what happens with differently sized weapons.

[Piccamo]

monkey grip is not a bad feat. Say you want to use a great sword and shield, a -2 to your attack is pitiling to the extra defense and damage you can deal. Use it with oversized two weapon fighting and you have a neat little combo. Not to mention if you want to use a large great sword and dont want to take the -4 which hurts more then a -2. Just dont mix it with the power attack chain and you wont have much problem

I'm not going to go very in depth with this because its been regurgitated over and over again (not by me). Using Monkey Grip is almost universally a losing situation. Take a -2 penalty to power attack when you want slightly more damage. Damage Dice are not the best way to get damage in DnD. Its a crappy concept anyway; if you want to wield a bigger weapon just describe it as being bigger than normal.

Oh and thats not how Monkey Grip works.

[Innis Cabal]

before the erreta yes monkey grib did in fact work that way, as can be seen in NVN2..not that it should be taken worth a gain of salt. The change of the feat makes it worthless yes but erreta is simply bad in all forms.

[Piccamo]

Errata is generally a good thing as it conveys the authors' intent. The Neverwinter Nights games are not good sources of how DnD works or is meant to work. They use a very liberal version of the system; I suspect in this case it was because they never intended to give you large-sized weapons, but wanted to use the feat.

[Fax Celestis]

before the erreta yes monkey grib did in fact work that way, as can be seen in NVN2..not that it should be taken worth a gain of salt. The change of the feat makes it worthless yes but erreta is simply bad in all forms.

Actually, the change to Monkey Grip was not due to errata, but due instead to the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion. NWN2's monkey grip is not D&D monkey grip, instead being closer to Oversized Two Weapon Fighting.

[Orzel]

Too bad trips and disarms are based on the wielder's size and not the weapons.

There's no good reason to use bigger weapons.

[squishycube]

To answer each question the OP asked:
However, would there be any attack penalty?
Yes, a -4 penalty to attack rolls for each step from the wielder's size to the weapon's size.
Since it's a Greathammer, he's already wielding it with two hands. Does upping the size mean that he can still wield it with two hands? Or is he unable to wield it?
He will be unable to wield it, because it'd become a 'three-handed weapon' or something. (Read broderickdruce's post)
Does he need Monkey Grip?
Yes. It would allow your character to wield the Large greathammer in two hands at a -2 penalty. As has been pointed out, Power Attack is almost always a better feat to take.
Also, how does reach factor in? The base weapon has a plain ole 5-foot reach, but wielding a gigantic honkin' hammer, logically, would reach farther, right?
It has been mentioned; reach with weapons works weird in D&D. A reach weapon doubles your natural reach. A large greathammer is not a reach weapon. Thus you stay at your natural reach.

And some general remarks:
On this forum, you will often get lots of angry replies when you post about builds with big weapons. People'll say its anime nonsense and that Monkey Grip is bad compared to Power Attack.
But no one can stop you if you like that kind of character, so go ahead and have fun!

[Rigeld2]

And some general remarks:
On this forum, you will often get lots of angry replies when you post about builds with big weapons. People'll say its anime nonsense and that Monkey Grip is bad compared to Power Attack.
But no one can stop you if you like that kind of character, so go ahead and have fun!

Correction. People on this forum get angry when a build is posted that uses big weapons and says that its using for a reason other than flavor. Flavor is fine. Monkey Grip is worse than Power Attack. Go have fun with whatever character you want.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Yes, a -4 penalty to attack rolls for each step from the wielder's size to the weapon's size.

Minor nitpick:
The penalty is -2.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.

[Rigeld2]

...
So Monkey Grip is even more useless? Since it changes a -2 penalty into a ... -2 penalty?

[Krellen]

...
So Monkey Grip is even more useless? Since it changes a -2 penalty into a ... -2 penalty?

The purpose of Monkey Grip is not to negate the penalty, but to reduce the effort required to wield the oversized weapons. Thus, instead of a Large Longsword taking two hands and a -2, Monkey Grip makes it take one hand and a -2. It does exactly what it's designed to do.

[Matthew]

The only other advantage is being able to use Huge Light Weapons at -2 AB instead of -4 AB and, I think, Large Two Handed Weapons.

[Zincorium]

The only other advantage is being able to use Huge Light Weapons at -2 AB instead of -4 AB and, I think, Large Two Handed Weapons.

Huge light weapons wouldn't even take monkey grip into account, since they don't fall into it's purview (weapons one size larger than the wielder), and so would be a two handed weapon with a -4 penalty. Not to mention it's kind of pointless to have monkey gripped versions since monkey grip does not work with weapons in your off hand.

Large two handed weapons are fine by the book, but they're just not good enough to warrant using.

[Matthew]

*Laughs* and I was looking hard for a situation where it might apply. I hate that stupid Feat. Oh well, yeah, Large Two Handed Weapons, then. Useless.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

But it is so cooll!!!!!!11111111ELEVEN

[Rigeld2]

/me stabs Lord_Silvanos repeatedly.

[Jasdoif]

Now if the campaign just happens to feature a major artifact in the form of a two-handed weapon sized for creatures one size larger then the PCs, and whose artifact powers rely on the weapon being wielded by a creature...it might be a good feat choice.

[Piccamo]

Now if the campaign just happens to feature a major artifact in the form of a two-handed weapon sized for creatures one size larger then the PCs, and whose artifact powers rely on the weapon being wielded by a creature...it might be a good feat choice.

Nope, have someone reroll a character with powerful build

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

/me stabs Lord_Silvanos repeatedly.

Did not mean to upset you anymore

[Tyrael]

Ah, I get it now. So basically, upping the two-handed Greathammer to a Large Greathammer would make him unable to wield it? Bleh, that answers the question right there. Oh, well. It was mostly curiosity anyways; ICly his hammer is already really freaking huge, but by the numbers it's still a Medium weapon. I was just wondering if it would be worth it, from a numbers standpoint, to make the dice live up to the character and make it a Large. But since he'd be unable to wield it, I guess that's no dice.




On a slightly related question, I had the hammer made out of Adamantium. How exactly does this affect its hardness and hit points? d20SRD and PHB say that a one-handed hafted weapon has 5 Hardness and 5 HP (5/5). A one-handed metal-hafted weapon is 10/20. A two-handed hafted weapon is 5/10. However, there's nothing given for a two-handed metal-hafted weapon. Going from the one-handed example, metal-hafting it appears to modify it by x2/x4. However, going from the two-handed example, two-handing something appears to modify it by x1/x2.

So, do I take the one-handed metal-hafted weapon and apply the two-hand modifier to it? So the 10/20 becomes 10/40?

Or, alternately, do I take the two-handed hafted weapon and apply the metal-haft modifier to it? So the 5/10 becomes 10/40...Er. They work out the same. Interesting.

So, if we go with those theories, then a two-handed metal-hafted weapon is 10/40. All right. However, the Adamantine template says, "Weapons, armor and shields normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per unch of thickness and hardness 20."

So, am I reading this right? Adamantine sets a weapon to 20/x1.3 ? Applied to our two-handed metal-hafted Greathammer, the 10/40 becomes 20/53.3, if I'm doing my math right. Is that correct?







Another random question, how does character wealth levels factor into ECL? When rolling new PCs, our DM lets us go shopping with the PC-Wealth-by-level table 5-1 in the DMG. My character is character level 8, but ECL 9 due to the +1 Lizardfolk adjustment. Does he then get 36,000 gold to shop with, as per a 9th-level character? Or is it 27,000 as per level 8?

[Dhavaer]

*smash*
*crack*
*riiiip*
*glugglugglug*
Ah... so refreshing. Thanks, Silvanos.

[Zincorium]

As to the first one, do your items get sundered a lot? Or are you extremely careless where you leave them (pools of acid, lava, sphere of annhilation, etc.)?

If not, then it will probably never come up, and as you're running into a problem with hard and fast rules, just pick something that sounds right and run it past your DM.

As to the last bit, yes, ECL counts for experience, what challenge rating monsters are appropriate, and wealth awarded.

[Jasdoif]

....So, am I reading this right? Adamantine sets a weapon to 20/x1.3 ? Applied to our two-handed metal-hafted Greathammer, the 10/40 becomes 20/53.3, if I'm doing my math right. Is that correct?

I'll work through it myself, see if we get the same numbers.

Items made out of adamantine have a hardness of 20, the substance determines the hardness.

As for hit points...well, it looks in both cases (metal-hafted and not) that going from light to one-handed doubles the hit points, and the non-metal going from one-handed to two-handed doubles it again, so I would say that it would be the same thing, doubling it from 20 to 40. That's steel hit points, though; you would add a third for it being adamantine. That's just over 13, and you round fractions down, making the total 53.

So yes, your math is correct, your two-handed adamantine hammer for a Medium creature would have hardness 20 and 53 HP, assuming it isn't magical. If it is, each point of enhancement bonus increases its hardness by 2 and its HP by 10.


For reference, the table assumes metal weapons are made out of iron or steel, and that non-metal weapons are made out of ordinary wood.

[Tyrael]

Jasdoif: It is magical, it does 1d6 damage (+1 equivalent) and I persuaded my DM to allow a Sundering ability as a +1 equivalent, it adds +4 to Sunder attempts and deals x3 damage to inanimate objects as per Maul of the Titans. So that's a +2 bonus total, so instead of 20/53, it becomes 22/73, I think.


Zincorium: Actually, this character is built around breaking people's stuff a lot Also bashing stuff around in general. He's got Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, Cleave Asunder (3.0 feat house-ruled in, gives you free follow-up attack upon successful Sunder) and Knockdown. So he's got +4 to Sunder from the feat, +4 to Sunder from the weapon, and +4 to Sunder from it being 2-handed, so a grand total of +12 to Sunder attempts. Add that to his 26 STR (18 at start, +2 from Lizardfolk, +1 lvl4, +1 lvl8, +2 DragDisciple, +2 belt), and he can pretty much snap anyone's weapon like a twig.

To answer your question, I made it out of Adamantium because I figured that (A) ignoring Hardness is always fun and (B) it would be waaay ironic if the thing itself got Sundered.

[Jasdoif]

Jasdoif: It is magical, it does 1d6 damage (+1 equivalent) and I persuaded my DM to allow a Sundering ability as a +1 equivalent, it adds +4 to Sunder attempts and deals x3 damage to inanimate objects as per Maul of the Titans. So that's a +2 bonus total, so instead of 20/53, it becomes 22/73, I think.

Well...neither of those abilities are actually an enhancement bonus. The enhancement bonus would be the +2 part of a "+2 flaming burst short sword", for instance. A magic weapon with special abilities is required to have at least a +1 enhancement bonus, though, so that would make it 22/63. It's +2 to hardness per point of enhancement bonus, not +1.