OOTS #427 - The Discussion Thread

[Horned]

In what strip did V buy potions?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html

I suppose we're not supposed to ask...

[Hart av Srednak]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html

I suppose we're not supposed to ask...

Actually, it was in comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html.

EDIT: oh, this was a old question and allready answered. Well.. let this be a correction to Horneds misinformation.

EDIT#2: just to say how great these comics are. Since I've not said it for a while

[Shara_Littlebottom]

Actually, it was in comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html.

EDIT: oh, this was a old question and allready answered. Well.. let this be a correction to Horneds misinformation.

Which just goes to show the awesomeness of this comic. I'd have forgotten all about those potions were the writer, good thing I'm not. lol

Re Strategic Mistake (from Warmachine) if the Hobos do withdraw 13 big fellas with a lot of reach could pursue (although they would become huge targets to the archers) for the duration of the spell, potentially kicking a lot of ass.

[Enlong]

I think it is safe to say that Vaarsuvius is at least 13th level by the Mass "buff" spells.

What really impresses me about Vaarsuvius (and Burlew's quality of writing ) is how higher level magic-users can make the most of the their wider range of spells rather than just relying on their highest spell-level and most powerful.

As a minor note/question, which Bigby's "Hand" spell is he using to shore up the wall?

It may even be Mage Hand.

[fractal]

If it's just a regular Dispel Magic, it's only got a 35% chance of dropping any effect from a CL 13 Caster. And since it'd have to be an area dispel, it can only Dispel 1 Spell per Target in the Area.

I already addressed this, actually (on page 3).

The odds of a Dispel Magic dropping any one Enlarge Person is about 15% considering two L6 Spells (Bear's, Bull's) and L4 Spell (Enlarge). By the Spells description, it affects higher-level spells first.

Area Dispel hits spells with the highest caster level first, not the highest spell level. That means the Heroism effects are fairly safe, but there's a 1/3 chance of going after any of V's spells first.

From the SRD:

Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.
For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature's magic items are not affected.

[Adeptus]

It seems V is at his/her best in a war, rather than when adventuring in a band of misfits.

[Aegeus]

Yeah! Buff'n Bash! Wizard Power!
Just watch out for nasty dispels/debuffs

[Blood]

More Vaarsuvius! Yes! And it seems like he's learning, too; he knows that his explanations take longer than his plans!

[Webwalker]

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It's not Xykon. Why? Because that one is carrying a sword

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Yup. I think that one could be this Hobgoblin (Panel 4 and onward) using some sort of Disguise: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html .

[Deathmachine]

Alas, Vaarsuvius is making the strategic mistake of burning too many high level spells too quickly that can be countered by mundane techniques: withdrawing and waiting for the buffs to expire. The buffs last one minute per caster level, so will only last thirteen minutes. This forces the hobgoblins to retreat through archery fire and approach again through archery fire but it's better than facing buffed fighters. Attrition and time wasting favours the humans but Vaarsuvius can't keep this trick going for an hour, let alone all day.

This leaves the question whether the hobgoblins have the brains to do this. Sadly, they do. They are not thick like orcs and their society is organised around the military. They'll have officers who've studied tactics in war college and whose job is to stand back and think about what's going on. In a world where magic is commonplace, spell effects will be well known. The officer in charge will see the enlarged humans and know such effects have limited duration.

you're forgetting that those hobgoblins have xykon and redcloak in theyre backs, both of whom will kill them instantly when they start to retreat

[Romnipotent]

Just realised that one of the Hobgoblins is skewered and still alive looking quite stressed. :D
Go that tough HobGoblin!

[Romnipotent]

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It's not Xykon. Why? Because that one is carrying a sword

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And because he's on a zombie dragon flying in from the mountains. #300

[Zephra]

I'm so sad! I can't see the comic. can someone post the picture please?
So I can die in peace?

[bitnine]

And for V's next trick:

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A readied antimagic field for when an enemy spellcaster brings out the greater dispel magic. Bonuses suppressed, but not dispellable. Move away (bonuses pop back) and ready a move back into range for if they try again.

Okay, probably not, but I'd be real impressed if V stepped up like that.

withdrawing and waiting for the buffs to expire.

If a portion of the forces do that, it's a actually good thing as a siegebreaking technique to stagger their forces like that. And even a momentary full withdrawal is going to have its own logistical issues in coordination and provide a liability for the sieging forces.

[pendell]

BOOYAH! That's all I can say to today's strip. BOOYAH!

Gooo, V!

And once again we demonstrate the difference between a wargame and D&D! I wonder what the wargamers like Gygax who originally made D&D thought of that ...

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Haelis]

Wow, V rocked there :)
he really is stealing the thunder from the other members of the group. although I want to see Roy do some great cleaving :)

[geez3r]

I love V, s/he's so arrogant, but deserves it so much.

Great comic Giant.

[Kilbia]

Personally, I think Clerics are even better suited to this than Wizards are . I'd love to see what Durkon can do, other than the same old Thor's Might. If he's L13 as well, he could be ripping entire chunks of the Army apart with Holy Word, or Immobilizing it with a Control Weather. And he should very well kill the Lich in 2 shots with Bolt of Glory (L6 Spell: 13d12 Damage - No Save) x2.

I don't think Bolt of Glory is an option. Strip #32 made it pretty clear that Rich will only be using stuff out of the SRD, and stuff he makes up himself.

[Fingolfin]

Hehehe, that is so true what V. said about his explanations. Loved it all :)

[Suvarov454]

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V is almost too awesome. I'm worried she's going to get killed. That would be the worst thing ever.

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In a world with Raise Dead, you're worried about V dieing? It would be an inconvenience to lose a level, sure, but (as Belkar said in #286), Durkon can it like three times a day (which is another indication that the party is APL 12 or 14).

OTOH, the good Mr. Burlew may use Reincarnate instead, just for the comedic effect of turning V into something other than an elf.

[Threeshades]

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Yup. I think that one could be this Hobgoblin (Panel 4 and onward) using some sort of Disguise: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html .

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None of them are Xykon. Maybe the one still standing by redcloak, but I'm not even sure if he is.
Because: Xykon's not wearing any kind of amulet usually. Those are used by clerics (as redcloak is one) so i think all three Xykons shown are decoys.

And the one walking in the southern division is apparently the "Xykon" shown already in this strip:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html
Which explains why that one looks so fearful (undead are as far as i know immune to fear) and shows no authority over Redcloak.

Pretty easy, isnt it?

[MReav]

I don't think Bolt of Glory is an option. Strip #32 made it pretty clear that Rich will only be using stuff out of the SRD, and stuff he makes up himself.

Actually, we have mention of Oriental Adventures stuff (between the Samurai class and the Master Samurai Class and those weird undead things), FF6 game mechanics were used by people native to the world, and Zz'dtri was copyright infringing for a good 21 strips before he was dragged away (there was a 22 strip gap between his first appearance and his last, but his first appearance did not have him do anything to warrant copyright infringement). The Giant does what he thinks is funny (and the majority of us will agree with him on that).

[Grungydan]

Totally awesome! I'm loving this battle.

[Zenthar]

Really good comic, I didn't expect that, I thought they were gonna push the wall over onto the hobgoblins :D

It would have been funnier if you had Xykon's face at the end, Scared face,
"Unholy Crap"

Except, why would Xykon be scared of a low level spell?

[Talya]

Now to nitpick the mechanics (note that I don't really care, this is just fun.)

Enlarge Person, Mass
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Target: One humanoid creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

13 soldiers, standing abreast in their own 5' square, are 65' apart at the ends. It's drawn wrong! They'd need to be in three rows...

[Soepvork]

So the commander isn't impressed by the effects of 2nd and 3rd level spells (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance and Heroism) but a simple 1st level spell (Enlarge Person) does the trick? :P

(Yes, I know the spells cast were the "Mass" versions, but that doesn't really change the effect from the point of view from a single target)

Apart from this small piece of whining, it was another great comic!

[Threeshades]

Now to nitpick the mechanics (note that I don't really care, this is just fun.)



13 soldiers, standing abreast in their own 5' square, are 65' apart at the ends. It's drawn wrong! They'd need to be in three rows...

Maybe theyre not using the square system.

[warmachine]

you're forgetting that those hobgoblins have xykon and redcloak in theyre backs, both of whom will kill them instantly when they start to retreat

Xykon and Redcloak are well out of shouting range and, indeed, most weapon and spell ranges. It is the officer on location who is in charge of the task force and he gives the orders. This assumes, of course, an army with an officer command structure. Considering hobgoblins form an organised, military society, it's a safe bet. Also, assuming the officers haven't been purged in Stalinesque fashion but seeing the general is still alive and troop morale isn't shot to hell, I'm going with the officers still being alive.

Besides, I suspect Redcloak is in charge of the entire battle, rather than Xykon and, though he hates hobgoblins, is patient and levelheaded enough not to pointlessly waste troops. Better to have half a task force than no task force. Neither does he rebuke subordinates who talk back to him.

Mind you, if the gung ho Xykon is in charge, he may think that a determined push will result in fewer casualties than a withdraw and re-attack. Even trained officers can make really dumb decisions, let alone amateurs. However, without accurate intelligence, one cannot rely on this and burning lots of high level spells on the small chance the enemy officer is a gung ho twit is stupid.

It seems more likely that V is going for the morale boost, which will buff more soldiers for longer than his spells and potions ever will. Very clever.

[fizzbang]

I'm thinking these troops have Great Cleave.

Being 5th level (probably Warriors) and Human, they'd have 3 feats. I'm betting they'd have something along the line of Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave - good general choices for combat, and especially good for people using two-handed weapons with reach. Doubly so when you've got comparatively high base attack, bull's strength, and heroism.

Alternately, they may have Combat Reflexes instead of Great Cleave, which'd also be useful for defending with reach, but if they've only got general NPC Warrior stats, there's a good chance their Dex isn't high enough for the extra one or two AoO to be worth it.

Of course, that's discounting a whole wealth of feats from non-core books, but that way lies madness.

Without breaking down the likely stats of the guards, I'm thinking they've got that breach covered. At least, for the next 13 minutes, until V's spells wear off.

[fizzbang]

Wow, you'd think as useful as a 13 level wizard is, AC would have had one of their own, weren't all their wizards lower level? Or was the drunk who got et by the roc higher? Sure didn't act like it.

Well, he was definitely at least 9th level (to cast Teleport), so he was no wizard to scoff at. Which is exactly why he was so frustrated at being ignored as "just an NPC", I'd assume.

I'm sure there are lots of low level wizards/sorcerers and clerics amongst the crowd. But when you've only got a handful of spells a day, a massive war means you go through your usefulness pretty fast.