Reducing Classes

[jqavins]

INTRODUCTION:

Putting together house rules for a potential new world, I have a major quandry. I like the ability to let players to customize their characters' abilities to a high degree, but I dislike that there are so darn many different character classes to pick from and keep straight. 3.x skills and feats give more ability to have variety among core class characters than previous editions had, but I completely understand the desire for even more. On the other hand, this has lead to books full of classes, some redundant, some nearly redundant, some silly, and many that contribute to power inflation. In my internal dialog I call it classcruft, by analogy to listcruft. And I've been guilty of it myself, when I haven't seen another good way to make a certain character that I want to play.

I think I have finally come up with the basis for a method that might work, making all sorts of characters possible while greatly reducing the number of classes in play. I probably can't get all the way down to nothing but the core classes, but I can get a long way, if this works. But I only have the begining, so I'd appreciate help.

The key is ACFs, except they're not "alternative" any more, so I'll just call them CFs. What I'm thinking I'd do is replace nearly every class feature and bonus feat in the core classes with a slot to be filled from a menu of CFs. When a player wants something reasonable that can't be done with existing material, new ACFs can be added for an existing class while still using the existing class's basics. One could probably do most things using just the traditional core classes of Cleric, Fighter, Magic User, Thief (well, Rouge.)

Non-core base classes and all prestige classes would require DM approval prior to use, and would be approved only after player and DM together have tried hard to make the concept work through CFs instead.

I know some will think that books full of CFs are no better than books full of new classes, but I think they will be much easier to manage.

In the next post I'll lay out some structure keeping stuff organized, then I'll try to work up some examples.

[BRKNdevil]

INTRODUCTION:

Putting together house rules for a potential new world, I have a major quandry. I like the ability to let players to customize their characters' abilities to a high degree, but I dislike that there are so darn many different character classes to pick from and keep straight. 3.x skills and feats give more ability to have variety among core class characters than previous editions had, but I completely understand the desire for even more. On the other hand, this has lead to books full of classes, some redundant, some nearly redundant, some silly, and many that contribute to power inflation. In my internal dialog I call it classcruft, by analogy to listcruft. And I've been guilty of it myself, when I haven't seen another good way to make a certain character that I want to play.

I think I have finally come up with the basis for a method that might work, making all sorts of characters possible while greatly reducing the number of classes in play. I probably can't get all the way down to nothing but the core classes, but I can get a long way, if this works. But I only have the begining, so I'd appreciate help.

The key is ACFs. What I'm thinking I'd do is replace nearly every class feature and bonus feat in the core classes with a slot to be filled from a menu of ACFs. When a player wants something reasonable that can't be done with existing material, new ACFs can be added for an existing class while still using the existing class's basics. One could probably do most things using just the traditional core classes of Cleric, Fighter, Magic User, Thief (well, Rouge.)

Non-core base classes and all prestige classes would require DM approval prior to use, and would be approved only after player and DM together have tried hard to make the concept work through ACFs instead.

I know some will think that books full of ACFs are no better than books full of new classes, but I think they will be much easier to manage.

In the next post I'll lay out some structure keeping stuff organized, then I'll try to work up some examples.

So are you suggesting something like the alternative classes found in Unearthed Arcana Except better balanced?

[jqavins]

So are you suggesting something like the alternative classes found in Unearthed Arcana Except better balanced?

Yes, better balanced and far, far more extensive.

[jqavins]

As I see it, each new class feature (CF) would have a number of associated characteristics. Here's what I see so far.

Name	Ya' gotta have a name, just so ya know which one yer talkin' about.
Class	The class to which the CF may be applied. Could be multiple classes listed here, if all the rest of the information is the same no matter which class it's applied to.
Minimum Level	The lowest class level at which the CF may be taken
One Chance?	Some CFs may only be taken at the first level at which they are available.
Description	What this CF does.
Prerequisites	What other CFs or characteristics are required before this CF may be taken
Precluded by	What other CFs, having already been taken, prevent the character taking this CF
Precludes	What other CFs are prohibited after this CF is taken

Here's one quick example.

Name	Spell Singer
Class	Sorcerer (or Magic User)
Minimum Level	1
One Chance?	Yes
Description	Instead of intoning spells while wiggling your fingers and sprinkling powders about, you sing your spells. All spells' verbal components are replaced with some sort of song. All material components are replaced by a focus, which is a musical instrument, and somatic components consist of playing the song on said instrument. Not having an instrument to play causes a +25% chance of arcane spell failure, and a non-masterwork instrument causes a +10% failure chance. You start the game with a masterwork instrument. You do not need to make a perform check to cast a spell, but you should have at ample ranks in both Perform (Singing) and Perform (the instrument you are using). If you do not have at lease (3 + spell level) ranks in both of these skills, you suffer an additional +5% chance of failure per number of ranks below that in the lower of the two. You gain all Perform skills as class skills.
Prerequisites	4 ranks in Perform (Singing), 4 ranks in Perform (any instrument)
Precluded by	N/A
Precludes	None

By using this, plus a few new spells and maybe some other new CFs at higher level, I would eliminate the Bard as a distinct class.

[Extra Anchovies]

Spell singer, as currently written, cannot be taken. 1st-level only, and requires five ranks in two skills. 5 ranks in one skill can be done via Favored in Guild + Primary Contact, but you can't get 5 ranks in two skills at level 1.

ETA: Maybe just allow access to the Prestige Bard, Prestige Paladin, and Prestige Ranger classes?

[jqavins]

Spell singer, as currently written, cannot be taken. 1st-level only, and requires five ranks in two skills. 5 ranks in one skill can be done via Favored in Guild + Primary Contact, but you can't get 5 ranks in two skills at level 1.

D'oh! OK, god point, but beside the point. I'll I have fixed spell singer, but the point is not in the one example, it's in the goal and the general approach to accomplishing it.

[Extra Anchovies]

D'oh! OK, god point, but beside the point. I'll I have fixed spell singer, but the point is not in the one example, it's in the goal and the general approach to accomplishing it.

Maybe some package deals, a la the prestige bard/ranger/paladin, plus some class features as one-offs, would do it best? The three I listed all have fairly unique class feature progressions, (music, favored enemy, lay on hands/special mount, etc), but some of the other class features could be replaced more easily. Some ideas:

Barbarian Rage (1 use/day the first time you select this feature, +2 uses the second time, +1 the third time, +2 the fourth time, etc)
Inspiring Song (Inspire Courage, usable 2/day each time it's selected, with the bonus scaling as a normal Bard's would)

That sort of thing. Some class features can be emulated via feats (e.g. monk's flurry of blows -> superior UAS + TWF), but more unique ones could be special class features of the sort you're describing.

ETA regarding Spell Singer: that class feature is strictly a decrease in power. There's no benefit gained from it other than expanded class skill list, and you can no longer silence your spells (or still them, if you play an instrument).

[qazzquimby]

Note that the goal has been tried many times before (or at least I've seen several attempts without ever looking), which means a few things.
Either it is so difficult everyone failed.
Some people have had minor successes, and thus things you could build off of.
Some people have had major successes (I've seen none), in which case you should really be studying that.
The above is true whenever you have an interesting idea that's not so crazy you're the first person to have thought of it.

Directly relevant comments:
ability choosing is hard because it requires all abilities must be of equal power. Buying abilities with points is less elegant, but much easier balanced.
You want to make those tables much smaller. Probably make them not tables at all, like:

Spoiler

Show

Spell Singer
Prerequisites: Sorcerer (or Magic User) 1,
4 ranks in Perform (Singing), 4 ranks in Perform (any instrument),
Must be taken at first level.

Instead of intoning spells while wiggling your fingers and sprinkling powders about, you sing your spells. All spells' verbal components are replaced with some sort of song. All material components are replaced by a focus, which is a musical instrument, and somatic components consist of playing the song on said instrument. Not having an instrument to play causes a +25% chance of arcane spell failure, and a non-masterwork instrument causes a +10% failure chance. You start the game with a masterwork instrument. You do not need to make a perform check to cast a spell, but you should have at ample ranks in both Perform (Singing) and Perform (the instrument you are using). If you do not have at lease (3 + spell level) ranks in both of these skills, you suffer an additional +5% chance of failure per number of ranks below that in the lower of the two. You gain all Perform skills as class skills.

I suggest you look up point buy, classless, customizable, and similar words. I'll post some links once I've found some things.

[jqavins]

Note that the goal has been tried many times before (or at least I've seen several attempts without ever looking), which means a few things.
Either it is so difficult everyone failed.
Some people have had minor successes, and thus things you could build off of.
Some people have had major successes (I've seen none), in which case you should really be studying that.

Indeed, and I'd appreciate pointers to material from prior attempts and their results.

I suggest you look up point buy, classless, customizable, and similar words. I'll post some links once I've found some things.

I will, but I'm not hopeful, since broad serches tend to return lots and lots of misses that take hours to slog through. I don't think I want to go classless, but attempts and successes in that direction could be helpful. (Or even surprise me by presenting a solution.)

Ability choosing is hard because it requires all abilities must be of equal power. Buying abilities with points is less elegant, but much easier balanced.

I hold the minority opinion that balance is overemphasized. As long as no one ability or class really overwhelmingly stomps on another, perfect balance doesn't matter; close is close enough. My experience, with the groups I've gamed in, is that by and large people will choose abilities that fit a concept and their role playing choices. I don't tend to play with power gamers.

You want to make those tables much smaller. Probably make them not tables at all, like:
Spell Singer
Prerequisites: Sorcerer (or Magic User) 1,
4 ranks in Perform (Singing), 4 ranks in Perform (any instrument),
Must be taken at first level.

Instead of intoning spells...

That looks better. Possibly a hybrid, with the top information and a capsule description in a table and the full description outside. But formatting is the last detail to work out.

[qazzquimby]

Indeed, and I'd appreciate pointers to material from prior attempts and their results.

I'll deliver eventually. In the meantime, there is a classless system on the front page, which looks promising.

Evolutionist is not very far from a generic system if you refluff and add in iconic class abilities.

Besides that, you were right. There aren't nearly as many results as I anticipated, leading me to wonder where they're all hiding.