Monk: What's wrong, and what can be done?

[Tola]

I've heard it around here that there are problems with this class.

The title really says it all.

(Actually, while we're at it, we should say what's 'wrong' with other classes as well.)

[Yuki Akuma]

What's wrong with monks? Many things. Inconsistancy of abilities, for example; they have a high movement rate, and yet their signature special attack requires them to stay still and use a full attack action.

They also need to spend more money than a normal fighter on enchanting their main weapons, or they have to fight with a different weapon and lose another of their class abilities (improved damage dice on unarmed strikes, this time).

Their signature special attack, Flurry of Blows, actually makes them do less damage statistically, until they reach about ninth level, when they start to actually hit with the damn thing.

Their special abilities seem to be mainly special defenses, which don't help out in a party situation at all. This is why most people say the monk's thing is surviving and dragging his friends off to a church to get raised.

[Clementx]

That and being an incredible pain to spellcasters. They can single-move Tumble through all your wizard's minions, resist and save against all their interdicting spells, and start stunning them, and fighting nearly equally well if you throw a Dispel at them. They are great urban/slightly-tamed-wilderness scouts as well.

[Yuki Akuma]

That and being an incredible pain to spellcasters.

No. They're really not.

[Tola]

To ClementX: Aren't those GOOD things?

To Yuki: Explain, please? NEVER just say something like: 'they're not' without explaining. It saves people asking the obvious 'Why?'. Like now, for instance.

[Yuki Akuma]

To ClementX: Aren't those GOOD things?

It's actually a bad thing. People assume the monk would be good at that, then find out he really isn't very good at grappling (the main reason people seem to think monks are good against spellcasters, for some reason), realise that there are spells that don't allow saving throws or spell resistance that can really hurt them... and, oh yeah, that spellcaster is flying and monks don't have any effective ranged attacks.

There's also the whole MAD thing: if the monk wants good saves, he needs high Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom. If he wants a good AC, he needs good Dexterity and Wisdom. If he wants a chance to actually hit anything, he needs high Strength, or high Dexterity and a wasted feat slot. If he wants to do any sort of damage with his unarmed strikes, he needs a high Strength (and Power Attack doesn't even work, because his fists are Light weapons).

He can't possibly do everything a monk is "meant to do" without some obscenely lucky rolls or something like 40 point buy.

[The Great Skenardo]

No. They're really not.

I have to disagree. For your standard squishy wizard or sorceror, the thing he hates the most is to have someone close with him in the first round (someone, it might be added, who has an exellent Touch AC) as well as the best progression for saves in the game and who naturally gains spell resistance later on, as well as evasion. Additionally, no spellcaster likes that same person to get into his fries with a grapple attack (perhaps even with Improved Grapple as a bonus feat). This effect can be compounded if the Monk takes the feat Mage Slayer (but that's just extra.)

Your more combat capable Divine casters might not be outplussed by this as much, but a Monk can also make their lives difficult with Improved Disarm (making Divine Might far less useful) or Improved Trip (both of these are potentially bonus feats)
A druid would probably be the best primary caster, against a monk, but the others can be severely hampered by a Monk's unique ability to get into your fries quickly and keep you from casting the spells you want to cast.

EDIT for successive posts: True, Monks aren't always the best at grappling, mostly due to their subpar BAB and the fact that STR is usually a tertiary stat for them. however, it remains quite competetive with any primary spellcaster of comparable level, seeing as most Wiz/Sor/Clr don't invest too much into STR, and equal or lesser BAB progression.
As to flying, yes, that can create a problem, if the spellcaster has had time to prepare, but if the Monk's incredible jumping ability can't put him within reach, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the monk might notice that this can happen, so might invest in a magical item or two (even potions of fly, if you don't want wondrous items) to counteract that weakness. I think this is probably feasbile, by the time you face spellcasters capable of flying.
As to Killz Death spells, also true. However, I would point out that these spells spell equal doom for anyone they'er cast against. Monks are strong vs. spellcaster, but not impervious.

[Yuki Akuma]

I have to disagree. For your standard squishy wizard or sorceror, the thing he hates the most is to have someone close with him in the first round (someone, it might be added, who has an exellent Touch AC) as well as the best progression for saves in the game and who naturally gains spell resistance later on, as well as evasion. Additionally, no spellcaster likes that same person to get into his fries with a grapple attack (perhaps even with Improved Grapple as a bonus feat). This effect can be compounded if the Monk takes the feat Mage Slayer (but that's just extra.)

Your more combat capable Divine casters might not be outplussed by this as much, but a Monk can also make their lives difficult with Improved Disarm (making Divine Might far less useful) or Improved Trip (both of these are potentially bonus feats)
A druid would probably be the best primary caster, against a monk, but the others can be severely hampered by a Monk's unique ability to get into your fries quickly and keep you from casting the spells you want to cast.

If there's a monk standing next to you and you want to cast a spell, you take a step backwards. Monks don't have reach.

And yes, sure, a monk can ready an action to grapple you if you move or try to cast a spell... but he can't do anything else in the round if he does that.

[InaVegt]

I have to disagree. For your standard squishy wizard or sorceror, the thing he hates the most is to have someone close with him in the first round (someone, it might be added, who has an exellent Touch AC) as well as the best progression for saves in the game and who naturally gains spell resistance later on, as well as evasion. Additionally, no spellcaster likes that same person to get into his fries with a grapple attack (perhaps even with Improved Grapple as a bonus feat). This effect can be compounded if the Monk takes the feat Mage Slayer (but that's just extra.)

As yuki already said a decent wizard is both flying and doesn't give the monk a save.

Your more combat capable Divine casters might not be outplussed by this as much, but a Monk can also make their lives difficult with Improved Disarm (making Divine Might far less useful) or Improved Trip (both of these are potentially bonus feats)

That's why you have a locked gauntlet as a cleric and are a dwarf.

A druid would probably be the best primary caster, against a monk, but the others can be severely hampered by a Monk's unique ability to get into your fries quickly and keep you from casting the spells you want to cast.

Not true, the wizard flies away and the cleric has plenty of options to defend against the monk.

[Clementx]

If there's a monk standing next to you and you want to cast a spell, you take a step backwards. Monks don't have reach.

Then he readies an action to chuck a shuriken into your face if you cast a spell. Special monk weapon, he just attacks with them out of nowhere.

And don't pretend that all these caster advantages ONLY apply to monks. They apply to any melee-focus class, and are generally required to make up for the wizard's low hit points (arrows are a comparable threat to this HP as would a great ax to a fighter) or cleric's lack of combat style.

[martyboy74]

blah blah blah

Mage: I take a 5 foot step away from him, and cast Wall of X/Fly/Invisibility/Disintegrate.

[Yuki Akuma]

Then he readies an action to chuck a shuriken into your face if you cast a spell. Special monk weapon, he just attacks with them out of nowhere.

Oh no. Concentration check DC 11.5 + maybe 1 or 2 from the monk's strength. The absolute horror.

And don't pretend that all these caster advantages ONLY apply to monks. They apply to any melee-focus class, and are generally required to make up for the wizard's low hit points (arrows are a comparable threat to this HP as would a great ax to a fighter) or cleric's lack of combat style.

No, of course not. It's a problem for all melee-oriented classes. But it hurts the monk the most.

[Morty]

Monks maybe aren't wizard bane, but they're ceratinly better at dealing with wizards than other meleers. Besides, wizards are broken, so that questin is preety pointless in the first place.
For me, monks don't even have to exist; they're completely superfluous. To fix the monk, you have to completely rewrite him. Seriously, can you imagine someone killing a dragon with his fists? Even with all this purity-of-body-and-mind-monastery-training thing.

[Yuki Akuma]

Monks maybe aren't wizard bane, but they're ceratinly better at dealing with wizards than other meleers. Besides, wizards are broken, so that questin is preety pointless in the first place.
For me, monks don't even have to exist; they're completely superfluous. To fix the monk, you have to completely rewrite him. Seriously, can you imagine someone killing a dragon with his fists?

Maybe if he's a Tiger Claw/Setting Sun swordsage...

Hey, there's a thought. You want to fix monks? Use the unarmed/unarmed swordsage variant in Tome of Battle.

[Clementx]

Oh no. Concentration check DC 11.5 + maybe 1 or 2 from the monk's strength. The absolute horror.

Plus 1+1d6 shocking or whatever handy enchantment the monk picks up. Nevermind that by time a caster has the Concentration modifier to always make that DC, the monk can afford pretty nasty poisons as well. I have never seen shuriken thrown by a lvl5+ monk in that situation that didn't have a poison on it (one that he makes the save on with a 4 or so, on the 5% chance he nicks himself until lvl11 in which case he doesn't care).

[PirateMonk]

Seriously, can you imagine someone killing a dragon with his fists? Even with all this purity-of-body-and-mind-monastery-training thing.

Wizards kill dragons by waving their hands at them.

[Morty]

Maybe if he's a Tiger Claw/Setting Sun swordsage...

Hey, there's a thought. You want to fix monks? Use the unarmed/unarmed swordsage variant in Tome of Battle.

Well, that's actually a good idea. Swordsage is like monk should've been from the very beginning.

Wizards kill dragons by waving their hands at them.

Yeah, this waving causes terrible arcane powers to unleash on dragon. They don't try to kill dragon by beating him to death.

[Yuki Akuma]

Plus 1+1d6 shocking or whatever handy enchantment the monk picks up. Nevermind that by time a caster has the Concentration modifier to always make that DC, the monk can afford pretty nasty poisons as well. I have never seen shuriken thrown by a lvl5+ monk in that situation that didn't have a poison on it (one that he makes the save on with a 4 or so, on the 5% chance he nicks himself until lvl11 in which case he doesn't care).

So the monk has to waste lots of money of getting ammunition enhanced with damage special abilities and has to waste tons of money on each dose of poison?

Well, sure, if you don't want those Bracers of Armour, or that Cloak of Flying...

(This is also why Vow of Poverty monks aren't very good: they need equipment just as much as everyone else. Just not for the same reasons as the fighter.)

[Matthew]

If he wants to do any sort of damage with his unarmed strikes, he needs a high Strength (and Power Attack doesn't even work, because his fists are Light weapons).

Yuki, Monks can use the Power Attack Feat with their Fists. Everybody always gets this wrong, but if you read the Power Attack Feat description again, you'll notice the special exemption for Natural and Unarmed Attacks. I am pretty sure this has been mentioned before in other threads about the lameness of Monks and it doesn't help them out, but there you go.

[Tola]

Why's he bad at grappling? I'm seeing nothing in the grapple section that screams 'Monks are bad at this'...

When does flight come into play? Let's see...Spell Level 3, that's....Level 5, it says here? Can that be right? Neutralise many land-bound creatures so soon?

Bleh. How hard is it to jump and grab a wizard out of the air?

Well. Those are the problems, now..what to do about it...

Let's see...full attack bonus, perhaps?

Giving him flight is not really feasible, I guess....Some sort of major bonus to Jump? Make him not need the run-up?(Again, the grab him out of the air thing...)

Shift the flurry boosting down a few levels?

Would that be too much? Too LITTLE?

[Yuki Akuma]

Yuki, Monks can use the Power Attack Feat with their Fists. Everybody always gets this wrong, but if you read the Power Attack Feat description again, you'll notice the special exemption for Natural and Unarmed Attacks. I am pretty sure this has been mentioned before in other threads about the lameness of Monks and it doesn't help them out, but there you go.

...Oh. Yeah, I knew that. No mistakes here. Just testing!

[Krellen]

The Monk should have a full BAB and the Skirmish ability. Not flurry of blows.

[Morty]

When does flight come into play? Let's see...Spell Level 3, that's....Level 5, it says here? Can that be right? Neutralise many land-bound creatures so soon?

The whole flight chain of spells was designed when drunk. Monks or any other class doesn't have anything to do with it.
Really, if you want to fiz a monk, use swordsage. I'm generally against replacing standard classes with ToB classes, but in this case it works.

[The Great Skenardo]

Phew! Okay, a few numbered responses.

1. But TGS, what's keeping the Wizard from taking a 5-ft step as a free action? Monks don't have reach!
I would point out, first of all, that defensive casting makes even that usually unecessary.
Very true, but as I see it, if the monk is attempting to actively harm the wizard, he doesn't end his action right next to the wizard, regardless. I envision hostilities breaking out and (barring Celerity cheese), the Monk will often win Initiative. During this round, he charges the Wizard and initiates a grapple. Against almost any primary arcane caster, a monk of comparable level and decent stats will tend to win. This move is made feasible by the movement speed of the monk, which can cover quite bit of distance as part of a charge. If you fail the grapple, that's when you'd end up next to the spellcaster, and then it might be a problem. ( I would mention in passing that Monks usually have the highest Touch AC of any base class, which makes hitting them with a disintegrate harder, increasing the chance for missing)

2. What about Stability McLovesHisWeapon, the dwarven cleric with the locked gauntlet?
I would argue that this is an exception to the norm. A person who wanted to defend against the possibility of any monk anywhere from depriving him of his precious balance or weapon, then it's certainly possible to do so. (Incidentally, while the cleric Somatic components are often quite simplistic, I don't think you can actually do them whilst wearing a locked gauntlet, neither can you deliver touch attacks thusly.) In that case, grappling would still be a quite viable option (although potentally trickier, as a per the cleric's better strength and BAB). I think most people would agree that this is an extremely atypical cleric build, however.

3. But What about Flying? If the spellcaster flies away, you're kinda screwed, right?
Potentially. first axiom of monks is that you need to be able to reach your target. For the beginning levels of the game, unless you're being pelted from above in a wide open field, a Monk's stellar speed and jumping abilities allow her to reach spellcasters through climbing and jumping. if you''re in a typical dungeon or building (or even in an area with things to climb), then the spellcaster has to be very very careful with her maneuvering, if she wants to simultaneously evade the Monk and still deal with her companions.
Come later levels, the Monk has more options available in the form of Abundant Step and wondrous items bought or purchased along the way. The most versiatile monk is she who can reach any opponent no matter how high she flies.

I would also note that a spellcaster can screw over any class, but short of a Spellthief (who would have the same problems or worse with reaching the spellcaster), the Monk is the base class best suited for shutting down a spellcaster.

[Matthew]

I would like to see them get Mobile Flurry of Blows, Mobile Two Weapon Fighting, a Full Base Attack Bonus and a Flurry of Blows progression that mirrored Two Weapon Fighting, so that a Monk 20 with Flurry of Blows and Two Weapon Fighting would get:

Standard Attack:

Primary: +16 / +16
Off Hand: +16

Full Attack:

Primary: +16 / +16 / +11 / +11 / +6 / +6 / +1 / +1
Off Hand: +16 / +11 / +6 / +1

Oh yeah, and the ability to get their Full Strength Bonus with Off Hand Attacks...

[Yuki Akuma]

Why's he bad at grappling? I'm seeing nothing in the grapple section that screams 'Monks are bad at this'...

He's not that bad, but he's not as good as many people think. The fighter is better with his high BaB and lessened MAD.

When does flight come into play? Let's see...Spell Level 3, that's....Level 5, it says here? Can that be right? Neutralise many land-bound creatures so soon?

Alter Self. Spell level two.

Bleh. How hard is it to jump and grab a wizard out of the air?

Can you make a DC 400 jump check?

Let's see...full attack bonus, perhaps?

Sure. Doesn't hurt at all.

Giving him flight is not really feasible, I guess....Some sort of major bonus to Jump? Make him not need the run-up?(Again, the grab him out of the air thing...)

Giving him ToB maneuvers would really sort most of the problems out easily. Balance of the Air allows... well, balancing on the air. Searing Charge gives you a fly speed.

Shift the flurry boosting down a few levels?

Yes. That really needs to be done...

[Rahdjan]

Play to have fun with a good group of people and none of the classes need reworked. I played a monk whose call to fame WAS his survivability. He took the risks the other players refused to take and always came out on top. Monks just fit the non-role of the group. Don't depend on them for anything specific and they will do amazing things.

P.S. I do like the swordsage idea

[Piccamo]

Phew! Okay, a few numbered responses.

1. But TGS, what's keeping the Wizard from taking a 5-ft step as a free action? Monks don't have reach!
I would point out, first of all, that defensive casting makes even that usually unecessary.
Very true, but as I see it, if the monk is attempting to actively harm the wizard, he doesn't end his action right next to the wizard, regardless. I envision hostilities breaking out and (barring Celerity cheese), the Monk will often win Initiative. During this round, he charges the Wizard and initiates a grapple. Against almost any primary arcane caster, a monk of comparable level and decent stats will tend to win. This move is made feasible by the movement speed of the monk, which can cover quite bit of distance as part of a charge. If you fail the grapple, that's when you'd end up next to the spellcaster, and then it might be a problem. ( I would mention in passing that Monks usually have the highest Touch AC of any base class, which makes hitting them with a disintegrate harder, increasing the chance for missing)

Even without Celerity spells like Nerveskitter (level 1 spell, immediate action) grant a bonus to Initiative.

2. What about Stability McLovesHisWeapon, the dwarven cleric with the locked gauntlet?
I would argue that this is an exception to the norm. A person who wanted to defend against the possibility of any monk anywhere from depriving him of his precious balance or weapon, then it's certainly possible to do so. (Incidentally, while the cleric Somatic components are often quite simplistic, I don't think you can actually do them whilst wearing a locked gauntlet, neither can you deliver touch attacks thusly.) In that case, grappling would still be a quite viable option (although potentally trickier, as a per the cleric's better strength and BAB). I think most people would agree that this is an extremely atypical cleric build, however.

Pretty much all my melee characters have a locked gauntlet if their primary weapon can be disarmed. You have no significant advantage over the cleric for grapple checks and absolutely none over the druid.

3. But What about Flying? If the spellcaster flies away, you're kinda screwed, right?
Potentially. first axiom of monks is that you need to be able to reach your target. For the beginning levels of the game, unless you're being pelted from above in a wide open field, a Monk's stellar speed and jumping abilities allow her to reach spellcasters through climbing and jumping. if you''re in a typical dungeon or building (or even in an area with things to climb), then the spellcaster has to be very very careful with her maneuvering, if she wants to simultaneously evade the Monk and still deal with her companions.
Come later levels, the Monk has more options available in the form of Abundant Step and wondrous items bought or purchased along the way. The most versiatile monk is she who can reach any opponent no matter how high she flies.

Ranged weapons don't matter since they can be completely negated by a Wind Wall. Abundant step gets you to the caster and then waiting until next turn to act.

I would also note that a spellcaster can screw over any class, but short of a Spellthief (who would have the same problems or worse with reaching the spellcaster), the Monk is the base class best suited for shutting down a spellcaster.

Monks are worse off because they can't do the damage to bring down a caster and they really don't do much else to affect combat.

[The Great Skenardo]

One further note about flight. If the Monk is already in your fries you can certainly take a 5-foot step and cast fly, but you can't thereafter fly away. You have a move action left, but something people often forget is that you can't move in a round that you take a five foot step. If you could, the withdrawal action wouldn't exist.

EDIT:

1. All my melee guys have a locked guantlet, and divine primary spellcasters are much harder to grapple.
I think it's a little odd that locked guantlets are the default. They restrict your ability to do anything in combat but swing your weapon. you can't brandish your holy symbol to turn undead, you can't drink a potion, use a scroll or wand, or even use any spell that requires material components, unless you forgo having a shield.
Druids aren't meant to be grappled. In that case, you're better off trying to trip them up before they transform into a bear. I admit, in the face of a druid with natural spell, there's not a whole not a monk can do. On the other hand, it's similarly difficult for the druid to affect you with any of her spells (as druid spells with no save/no spell resistance tend to be far more sparse than arcane spells)
Clerics are harder, but still feasbile with the +4 bonus to Improved Grapple (which is pretty much requisite to trying to grapple anyone at all)

2. Ranged weapons are easily negated, and Abundant Step is not that useful in this case
True, but few monks make active use of ranged weapons. The monk does best in a situation where she too can take to the skies and bring the game back to stunning and harassment (incidentally, Stunning Fist is an excellent recourse against primary arcane casters). How precisely the Monk is granted the ability to fly is, of course, variable. (items, potions, allies, etc.)
I agree that Abundant Step could use some work. If one were to ask me, I would make using the Abundant Step a move action.

3.Monks don't have the damage to take down a spellcaster and do little else to affect combat.
Monks are at a disadvantage for sheer damage output vs. fighters and other primary melee classes, true. I would contest that they do little else to affect combat; The Monk has mobility and resiliance on her side, making her difficult to kill by magical means. While she may not be able to fell the spellcaster with a few swift blows, she can provide her allies with valuable opportunities to act free of harassment. Every round the spellcaster spends trying to evade or shut down the monk is a round in which her teammates can contrive some means of dealing the telling blow or hampering the spellcaster enough to make the difference.

[Clementx]

Pretty much all my melee characters have a locked gauntlet if their primary weapon can be disarmed. You have no significant advantage over the cleric for grapple checks and absolutely none over the druid.

Ranged weapons don't matter since they can be completely negated by a Wind Wall. Abundant step gets you to the caster and then waiting until next turn to act.

Yep, a cleric who needs a free hand to cast almost all his spells just LOVES having to take a full-round action to remove his mace from his locked gauntlet. The choice is either +10 to disarm, or a light shield with some juggling. Remove the shield AC to negate the disarming monk, and suddenly their AC drops by just the amount that monks are behind fighters in BAB, and he can pummel you better.

As for Wind Wall...what? Your party sorcerer is twiddling his thumbs? If your party has ranged-focused members, or melee-focused in case of a flying wizard, his first action should be to dispel magic it.

People always forget- if a magic spell is hard to negate physically, it can still be negated magically. If your opposing wizards are Batman, your party wizard should be one, too, or you just have a crappy party, and will lose no matter what.