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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    I've been browsing Wizards' terrible, terrible forum (the forum software, not the content), and I came across this: Dealing Death: Handbook of the True Assassin. It's basically a guide on how to take advantage of the rogue assassin subclass, with a twist: It's really a guide on how to take advantage of a 3-level rogue dip to create powerful multiclass assassins. More importantly, it talks about the key multiclass cutoff points for certain classes. Several other guides talk about the benefits of multiclassing and level dipping, but not to the extent of this guide.

    So, from doing a few hours of research, I've figured out the following cutoff points for certain classes:

    1. Fighter 2 - Fighting Style, Second Wind, and most importantly, Action Surge. This dip was known in the latter days of the public playtest, when multiclassing rules were introduced. Back then, the best mage (wizards were called "mages" then) was a fighter 2/mage 18.

    2. Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian/Monk 5 - This is when you get a second attack, which is the limit for non-Fighter classes.

    3. Fighter 11 - Third attack. The maximum number of attacks anyone other than a Fighter 20 is going to get.

    4. Dragon Sorcerer 1 - Permanent Mage Armor equivalent, social bonuses towards dragons, including the ability to speak the language of dragons. Also gives you a handful of cantrips and minor spells.

    5. Warlock (Great Old One Pact) 1 - Telepathy! Pretty much allows you to communicate with just about every creature in the game, regardless of language. And you only had to sell your soul to Cthulhu to get it!

    6. Warlock 2 - A few minor spells plus Eldritch Blast enhanced with any two of 1. extra damage (Agonizing Blast), 2. range (Eldritch Spear), or 3. knockback (Repelling Blast). Adds a bit of ranged oomph to any character, especially one with good Charisma.

    7. Assassin Rogue 3 - Pretty much the basis of the abovementioned guide. Gives you the powerful Assassinate ability.

    What other cutoff points result in good multiclass benefits?
    Last edited by Aron Times; 2014-10-18 at 12:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Wiz 1 but only for Eldritch Knights. Gives you Arcane Recovery, a spellbook, ritual casting, and 3 swappable 1st level spells known each day.

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    Mechaviking's Avatar

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    I was originally gonna say Paladin 2 for the smite, spells and fighting style but:

    3 Oath + Divine health: Vow of Enmity + Hunters mark is pretty damn awesome, the others less so, Divine health is handy not crucial

    4 Is ability increase/Feat which is always great

    5 is an extra attack.

    But if you want Higher lvl spells I suppose you can settle for 2(especially if you go Bladelock and get the extra attack there)

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Just brainstormed a few and here's a few more I came up with:

    Eldritch Knight Fighter 5/Wizard 15


    • Fighting Style
    • Second Wind 1d10+5
    • Action Surge 1/rest
    • 4 Stat Bumps/Feats
    • 2 Attacks/Action
    • Weapon Bond
    • 8th-level Spell Slot
    • 8th-level Spells Known
    • Ritual Casting
    • Arcane Recovery (8 spell levels)
    • All Spell School Features


    A pretty nice balance between swordplay and spellcraft. He gets two attacks, the same as most martial classes, as well as the ability to cast 8th-level spells (it's not just a spell slot, he actually knows how to cast 8th-level wizard spells). Furthermore, this build gets all spell school abilities (the final spell school ability is gained at level 14).


    • Abjurers get a reliable source of temp HP which they can use to protect themselves or their allies, improved dispelling and counterspelling, and spell resistance (awesome).
    • Conjurers can conjure minor items for roleplaying purposes, reliable short-range teleportation, unbreakable concentration on Conjuration spells, and greatly improved summoning.
    • Diviners get free spell slots, the ability to preroll a few d20s and use them to replace d20 rolls later, and supernatural senses.
    • Enchanters get the ability to make the enemy target someone else, including other enemies. "Let's you and him fight!" Out of combat, they get a lot of mind raping abilities.
    • Evokers get improved blasting. Evoker subclass features are generally meh, but the sheer potency of blasting spells in 5e more than make up for it.
    • Illusionists get improved illusions. The capstone is a particularly powerful utility ability.
    • Necromancers get better at animating and controlling the undead, and also get some necrotic resistance.
    • Transmuters get to do fun stuff with a Philosopher's Transmuter's Stone.


    (This build actually reminds me of the popular fighter 9/mage x dual class build in Baldur's Gate 2.)

    Eldritch Knight Fighter 11/Wizard 9


    • Fighting Style
    • Second Wind 1d10+11
    • Action Surge 1/rest
    • 5 Stat Bumps/Feats
    • 3 Attacks/Action
    • Indomitable 1/long rest
    • Weapon Bond
    • War Magic
    • Eldritch Strike
    • 6th-level Spell Slot
    • 5th-level Spells Known
    • Ritual Casting
    • Arcane Recovery (5 spell levels)
    • Half of the Spell School Features


    This one is more fighter than wizard. More attacks than non-fighter classes, the same number of feats/stat bumps as single-class characters, but worse spellcasting the the first build. This build gets a 6th-level spell slot but can only cast up to 5th-level spells, which is three spell levels lower than the first build. He also only gets half of the wizard subclass features.


    • Abjurers get reliable temp HP.
    • Conjurers get to summon random objects and get a reliable teleport.
    • Diviners get free spell slots, and the ability to preroll a d20 and use it to replace a later roll.
    • Enchanters get hypnotic eyes and the ability to "Let's you and him fight!"
    • Evokers get safer AoE blasting and better blasting cantrips.
    • Illusionists get improved illusions, though not as powerful as the first build.
    • Necromancers get to drain life with Necromancy spells (meh) and better undead servants.
    • Transmuters get to do fun stuff with a Philosopher's Transmuter's Stone, though not much as the previous build.

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Every Paladin should have a massive erection for Warlock 2, mechanically at least. Easily the single best ranged attack a Paladin could ask for.

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Silver View Post
    2. Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian 5 - This is when you get a second attack, which is the limit for non-Fighter classes.
    It seems people often forget that Monk also gets an Extra Attack at level 5, just like the other four front-liners. I'm not sure why. Maybe anti-Monk bias from 3.5e?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Good find! I'll edit the OP.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Good break points depend a lot more on the build this time around. Some examples:
    • Back in 3.5, 6 was the breakpoint for monks, for instance, since none of their features after 6 mattered. And 6 is still a good monk breakpoint, since that's when they get their second archetype feature.
    • For blade-pact warlock / eldritch knight combos, 7 would be a good breakpoint for fighter since that's when EK's get War Magic (one weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip, EB + pact weapon attacks all day). Stick around for one more level of EK for an attribute boost.
    • Other classes, like Druid and Ranger, seem like there's really no point to ever multiclass. Druids want to stay druid, and rangers don't have anything to offer the other classes that isn't more easily acquired elsewhere.

    But honestly, you could say that anytime someone gets an attribute boost, feature, archetype feature, or new spell level, that's a valid break point. That's pretty much every level for any class/archetype. So just pick the build you want to go for and make it work, I guess.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    I don't like how that guide only gives 20-level builds, because in this edition it really depends on your campaign's level range. Martial classes get damage increasers at levels 5 and 11, and each multiclass level pushes this milestone farther away, so you should make sure other features make up for it in one way or another. Cha-based characters have it easier - they can just take 2 or 3 levels of warlock to cover the damage progression, then focus on utility.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    As with the guy above, for martial characters the warlock cutoff is level 3, which gives extra attack and (if taken at 12 or taking level 4 sometime after 12) +cha to damage

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    War Cleric 1 with any arcane caster. Heavy armor, cure spells.
    Last edited by 1of3; 2014-10-18 at 03:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1of3 View Post
    War Cleric 1 with any arcane caster. Heavy armor, cure spells.
    I prefer Nature Cleric. A druid cantrip and a free skill beat martial weapon proficiency, especially if you are a wizard.
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Silver View Post

    2. Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian/Monk 5 - This is when you get a second attack, which is the limit for non-Fighter classes.
    Warlock 5, bard 6 (one level later but it comes with full caster spell slot levels)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Silver View Post
    5. Warlock (Great Old One Pact) 1 - Telepathy! Pretty much allows you to communicate with just about every creature in the game, regardless of language. And you only had to sell your soul to Cthulhu to get it!
    I think that it would be good to mention hex here, bonus action increase to your damage for an hour, that works with spells or weapons, and you can do this every short rest. You can pick up hex with magic initiate, but many dm's may hold you to the one cast a day wording.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Silver View Post
    7. Assassin Rogue 3 - Pretty much the basis of the abovementioned guide. Gives you the powerful Assassinate ability.
    Rogue 2 - cunning action

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    But honestly, you could say that anytime someone gets an attribute boost, feature, archetype feature, or new spell level, that's a valid break point. That's pretty much every level for any class/archetype. So just pick the build you want to go for and make it work, I guess.
    I would think that candidate breakpoints would require gaining a feature that at the very least is worth the expenditure of a level to get it. (In some cases, e.g. Colossus Slayer/Horde Breaker, it needs to be worth the expenditure of multiple levels to get it. This excludes quite a few (most?) levels as general breakpoints.

    From my standpoint, I prefer comparing class features to feats as a crude proxy, since taking a multiclass level often delays acquiring the next stat bump/feat. By that measure, any class features that would be worth expending a feat to obtain likely make a decent breakpoint in the class. The best breakpoints are those where that level and all preceding levels in that class are each worth a feat.

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Just remembered another route to Extra Attack at level 5: Thirsting Blade invocation for Warlock 5 (Blad Pact).

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Here's slightly longer dip for a small subset of adventurers: Warlock 3 (or 4 if you want a feat). You can get a warlock familiar (Imp is best), which can be the best scouting capability in the game (because you also get to see through it at all times), short of high-level divinations. You also get the benefits of Warlock 1 and 2, of course.

    This is best, perhaps, for a scout/sneak-type bard (or rogue, maybe). For a bard of knowledge, you get nice damage capability (agonizing blast) and extreme scouting ability (invisibly flying scout with magical dark vision (the only magical darkvision in the PH) that can go anywhere, and can be returned from the dead cheap). You also get 2 low-level spell slots every short rest.


    Here's my gish idea, though I don't know how good it is: Dragon Sorcerer 8/(Fiend?,Blade) Warlock 12. You get spells up to level 5, natural armor, and the warlock blade bonuses. Sorcerer comes first for Constitution saves. This gish focuses mostly on the casting aspect, but also does melee.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Rogues seem really dippable. A single level gives an extra skill, thieves' tools proficiency, and expertise. This could be really good for a grappling or shoving focused character or anyone who wants to be good at two skills.


    A second gives Cunning Action, which is gives extra mobility in combat.

    Three has already been discussed, and can advance your multiclass spell slots.

    More than that could be interesting, but use of the word dip becomes questionable.

    Almost none of the above is only helpful for skill monkeys and stealth characters. Many other builds could potentially benefit.

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Bear Totem Barbarian 3 gives you access to the Tankiest of all tanky abilities, and deserves a mention. I'd go up to 5 though for the ability increase / extra attack in most circumstances though.
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    If you go past two then four or five seems like the breakpoint for most classes. Everyone gets a feat at four. Many classes get a nice ability at five, rather that's another attack, uncanny dodge, third level spells, etc. etc.

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Might be better to look into dips from a 1-12 perspective than a 1-20. There's nothing wrong with theorycrafting, but it's not super helpful in actual play. If you're spending 1/3 or 1/2 your levels in another class it's hardly a dip.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Starting as a fighter and then going warlock is my favorite dip for a blade lock. Heavy armor, fighting style, and Con prof is incredible. Second wind is fantastic too. My character is a noble who made a deal with a devil for magical armor (not actually magical, but it is my fluff for the Heavy Armor Mastery feat). He becomes more and more obsessed with the armor as he levels and is able to tap into its power. Armor of Agathys, fiendish resilience, etc.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    I posted a sorcerer gish build in this forum that's playable from 1 to 20. As a matter of fact, its core abilities and proficiencies come into play as low as level 2 (sorcerer 1/fighter or paladin 1).
    Last edited by Aron Times; 2014-10-18 at 02:18 PM. Reason: Stupid autocorrect...

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeavelli View Post
    Bear Totem Barbarian 3 gives you access to the Tankiest of all tanky abilities, and deserves a mention. I'd go up to 5 though for the ability increase / extra attack in most circumstances though.
    the problem I have with barbarian dips is the rages are per day abilities, and with a dip you are going to have a very limited number of them.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    What's the excitement over Bear Totem anyway? Eagle Totem seems superior to me in normal play. Weapon Resistance + Disadvantage for all attackers > Weapon Resistance + Fire/Lightning/Necrotic/Poison/Etc resistance. The bonus Dash action is also good for making sure that you actually STAY enraged even when people are running away from you.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2014-10-18 at 04:50 PM.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    What's the excitement over Bear Totem anyway? Eagle Totem seems superior to me in normal play. Weapon Resistance + Disadvantage for all attackers > Weapon Resistance + Fire/Lightning/Necrotic/Poison/Etc resistance. The bonus Dash action is also good for making sure that you actually STAY enraged even when people are running away from you.
    Bear Totem:
    I would say the benefit here is the resistance works against saving throw based damage, or damage that is automatic.
    Also disadvantage may lower the damage you take by 50% or more or less, but the bear will always be 50% reduction except psychic of course.

    Both of the Eagles effects can be duplicated by other abilities but I don't know of another way to get resistance to force damage.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by numerek View Post
    Also disadvantage may lower the damage you take by 50% or more or less, but the bear will always be 50% reduction except psychic of course.
    That's kind of the point though: if disadvantage lowers damage by 50%-ish, the Eagle totem is taking 25% damage while the Bear totem is taking 50%. The Eagle guy is twice as tanky against normal enemies. Bear is mostly for anti-mage duty.

    I don't know of many monsters which inflict Force damage--seems kind of niche to me.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    That's kind of the point though: if disadvantage lowers damage by 50%-ish, the Eagle totem is taking 25% damage while the Bear totem is taking 50%. The Eagle guy is twice as tanky against normal enemies. Bear is mostly for anti-mage duty.

    I don't know of many monsters which inflict Force damage--seems kind of niche to me.
    That's pretty much the trade-off. Bear almost never takes full damage, and eagle takes even less but only against normal sources. If you know your campaign is about fighting orcs, you might go eagle. If it's about fighting outsiders, bear would probably be a better tank.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by numerek View Post
    Bear Totem:
    I would say the benefit here is the resistance works against saving throw based damage, or damage that is automatic.
    Also disadvantage may lower the damage you take by 50% or more or less, but the bear will always be 50% reduction except psychic of course.

    Both of the Eagles effects can be duplicated by other abilities but I don't know of another way to get resistance to force damage.
    Wish can get you permanent force resistance

    Side note regarding warlock multiclassing: if you want an extra attack you only need 3 levels of warlock, not 5. You just need 5 levels overall.
    Last edited by Eslin; 2014-10-18 at 08:08 PM.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    [*]Other classes, like Druid and Ranger, seem like there's really no point to ever multiclass. Druids want to stay druid, and rangers don't have anything to offer the other classes that isn't more easily acquired elsewhere.
    I don't know, if you're an 11th level fighter staring up at Action Surge at 17 and Extra Attack at 20, a bonus skill proficiency, second Fighting Style, hunter's mark, cure wounds, Colossus Slayer, Multiattack Defense/Escape the Horde, lightning arrow, etc., might look pretty good to you instead. Ranger/Hunter abilities look pretty sweet on a martial that already has three attacks a turn.
    Last edited by Finieous; 2014-10-18 at 08:11 PM.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Let's talk about multiclass cutoff points OR We need a guide to multiclassing!

    So I see people talking about a 1 level dip of cleric. But anyone have any dips for clerics to take? For example light clerics.
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