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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Updated 6/14/2015 to cope with errata. This build was cheesy before, so the new one will go for as much damage as one can do as a low-multiclass blade-lock.

    Purpose

    The purpose of this build is to be a high-damage character where most of the damage comes from dual wielding as a blade-pact warlock. Ideally, this character should have as little MAD as possible and be able to keep up with great weapon users if not out-damage them. I've avoided much multiclassing to avoid creating a difficult-to-RP character.

    DM Fiat
    Ask your DM his opinion on the following the first session. If he says yes to either of these, the character will be stronger overall.
    1. Treat twinned or paired weapons (two scimitars, sword and dagger, etc) as a single weapon. This will be helpful for three primary reasons: your level twelve ability, spells like Magic Weapon, and your attunement limit (if it comes up). Alternatively:
    2. A homebrewed double-weapon (scimitar or shortsword), which counts as two weapon fighting.

    Race
    Lightfoot Halfling, Halfelf, Drow, and Variant Human are all fantastic choices for this build. Drow has the most drawbacks but, if you can get your DM to let you train out of the sunlight sensitivity or wear sunglasses, the spells can be fun.

    Variant human takes special note, as devil's sight fixes the primary problem with humans, while an extra feat fixes the primary problem with a MAD warlock.

    Skills and Background
    Completely up to you. However, I recommend stealth and deception as some generally useful skill choices.

    Feats
    I don't recommend taking more than one (unless variant human). We'll want max scores in DEX and CHA, and must start with 16s in each in order to do that while still affording a feat (again, unless variant human).
    If you choose a feat at warlock 4 or start with one as a variant human, here are my recommended choices:
    • War Caster always a good choice
    • Defensive Duelist helps quite a lot with your lacking survival, and gives you a go-to reaction without having to spend spell slots on hellish rebuke. If you are a fiend-pact warlock, hellish rebuke is likely the better reaction choice though.
    • Resilient - is good for maxing an odd DEX or CHA Score (as is
    • Actor - same as above
    • Mobile helps quite a lot with survival, since you can easily get away from the bad guys without sacrificing resources.

    Level 1 - fighter
    Take the TWF fighting style and try to max out your Dexterity and Charisma. These will be your attack stats. Dexterity takes priority for obvious reasons. If you dont care about stealth and can get your starting strength high enough without sacrificing other stats, fighter lets you qualify for plate. Fighter also gives us CON proficiency, so were not too worried about our spells.

    2-20 Warlock
    Here's where the fun begins.

    Patron: Take Fiend. Fiend will let you play on the edge, killing targets to keep yourself alive and generally trying to blast or cut everything to death and grant yourself temporary HP in the process. Don't underestimate the temp HP, as it can be very useful. Eventually you acquire Hurl Through Hell which can put a massive dent in even the most tenacious foes.

    At level 4, take pact of blade. This is where DM Fiat comes into play. Declare your twinned weapons (or double weapon) as your pact weapon. If your DM did not allow this, no sweat. Just stick to your TWF style and dont worry about the lost CHA damage post 13.
    Our choice of bonus action is to do one of the following every round:
    • Hex something
    • Perform a TWF attack
    • Cast a spell like Expeditious Retreat to get us into or out of danger.

    Invocations
    • Devil's Sight is nice if you plan on casting darkness or being in caves often. Its almost mandatory on a Halfling or human if your DM pays attention to lighting conditions. Ask your party how they feel about darkness, as darkness + devils sight is one of the better warlock combinations.
    • Ascendent Step and Otherwordly Leap - both very cool options that can ensure we can always get to our target and lay down the hurt.
    • Agonizing Blast - can give us a good ranged damage at-will option (don't have to sheathe your pact weapon(s) and draw a bow) or push an annoying target away.
    • Hungering Blade and Lifedrinker obviously mandatory when we qualify


    Build Strengths
    Spoiler
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    • Competitive damage at all levels.
    • Fantastic casting.
    • Better average damage than a two-hander will get early on. Two handers can pass you after 11 on good rounds (if pure fighter). But Hex + two to three attacks is absolutely fantastic damage until then.
    • We're proficient in strength and constitution, but our charisma and dexterity are maxed, giving us a well-rounded character for saves
    • Mostly avoids MAD


    Build Weaknesses
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    • Not many feats unless you start with very high stats
    • Wisdom and Intelligence saves
    • Foes who you either can't melee or don't want to
    • Delayed progression (but not much)
    • Survival if you're not careful. Make sure to keep your defensive spells ready at all times.

    Variants
    Spoiler
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    • Six levels of fighter can yield a more fighty character with action surge, front-loaded feats, and some additional tricks. BM would be a good choice for the maneuvers, which refresh on a short rest just like your warlock spells. However, your overall damage will suffer due to reduced warlock progression and a delay on access to lifedrinker.
    • Use rapiers and dual wielder for +1 AC and +1 damage

    Hope everyone likes the build.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2015-06-22 at 03:45 PM. Reason: removed references to action surge

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    If you're looking for a SAD warlock damager, why not just go warlock/sorcerer? Converting spell slots to sorcery points means you'll have as many double eldritch blasts as there are turns where you need to use them, dealing 84 damage a round at 11 and 112 at 17.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    If you're looking for a SAD warlock damager, why not just go warlock/sorcerer? Converting spell slots to sorcery points means you'll have as many double eldritch blasts as there are turns where you need to use them, dealing 84 damage a round at 11 and 112 at 17.
    Because it's not a dual-wield melee build. That's pretty much it.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    just throwing it out there, but your 4th attack each turn will only get +5 dmg because offhand attacks don't get DEX bonus to dmg, and also if you're going for max damage i see no reason not to use 2 rapiers and take dual wielder.
    My Characters:

    Rai'un - Monk(8)/Warlock(2) :: The Westfold: Homebrew persistent open world campaign RIP
    Myrion Farcaster - Rogue (no levels) :: The Adventurers Code Vice: homebrew RP campaign RIP
    Pellanistra Tuin'tarl - Paladin (10), Rogue (1) :: Drow underdark campaign RIP

    all the campaigns....they are died....

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Yagyujubei View Post
    just throwing it out there, but your 4th attack each turn will only get +5 dmg because offhand attacks don't get DEX bonus to dmg, and also if you're going for max damage i see no reason not to use 2 rapiers and take dual wielder.
    TWF Fighting style grants DEX to offhand. I listed rapiers as a variant, but it's more feat-heavy and only adds a little damage.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    I like this build....
    Any consideration for Rogue levels for Sneak attack?

    I've created a build for Ranger/Rogue/Warlock.....It is very MAD, and feat needy. But has Hex, Hunters Mark, Colossus slayer, and Sneak attack & assasinate(crit on surprise).
    I would like your opinion. Let me know if you like it.
    Ranger/Rogue/Warlock

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Puppy View Post
    I like this build....
    Any consideration for Rogue levels for Sneak attack?

    I've created a build for Ranger/Rogue/Warlock.....It is very MAD, and feat needy. But has Hex, Hunters Mark, Colossus slayer, and Sneak attack & assasinate(crit on surprise).
    I would like your opinion. Let me know if you like it.
    Ranger/Rogue/Warlock
    Took a look and it seems to busy. The expected damage progression is fairly consistent, but not too high. Consider that at level 20, you're spending your action for 29 average DPR, your action and bonus for 36.5, and can increase that to 47 if you're also maintaining Hex. Compare that to a pure warlock, who can deal 42 DPR with his action, 56 DPR with his action while maintaining Hex, retains his bonus action for something like misty step, and can hit more targets. A pure warlock will also end with higher overall stats / more feats.

    It's an interesting character, but I think it under-performs.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Action surge doesn't hit till level 2, so at some point in there you're probably going to want another level in fighter, and if you're going to do that you may as well take it to 4 for BM superiority and your ASI.

    Of course, that then slows down when you get your second attack. So for this build I'd just suggest forgetting all about your 1 action surge and staying at level 1 fighter. To me its either take one level or five.

    having said that... I do like all variants of melee Fiend/Blade warlocks. Darkness/Devil's sight plus hex/AoA/Fire Shield are all very potent additions to a melee build. I would argue that this would all still be better with a polearm and GWF, but you want dual wield and this certainly works.

    No matter how you slice it though TWF just isn't going to be as good as Polearm GWF, not ever.
    Last edited by Millface; 2015-06-22 at 01:59 PM.

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    Z3ro's Avatar

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Yeah a bladelock/fighter build is a good TWF base, but I'd flip it. I'd go 18 eldritch knight/2 warlock. That gives you plenty of slots to cast warlock spell out of, a third mainhand attack, plus all the other fighter goodies. You could also do EK 11/Warlock 9 if you want higher level slots for warlock spells but still three attacks.
    I don't know about angels, but it's fear that gives men wings - Max Payne

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Millface View Post
    Action surge doesn't hit till level 2, so at some point in there you're probably going to want another level in fighter, and if you're going to do that you may as well take it to 4 for BM superiority and your ASI.

    Of course, that then slows down when you get your second attack. So for this build I'd just suggest forgetting all about your 1 action surge and staying at level 1 fighter. To me its either take one level or five.

    having said that... I do like all variants of melee Fiend/Blade warlocks. Darkness/Devil's sight plus hex/AoA/Fire Shield are all very potent additions to a melee build. I would argue that this would all still be better with a polearm and GWF, but you want dual wield and this certainly works.

    No matter how you slice it though TWF just isn't going to be as good as Polearm GWF, not ever.
    Thanks for the catch on action surge, I forgot to cleanse part of the OP when I updated the build.

    Regarding polearm mastery, two things I can say in the dual wielder's defense
    • Higher initiative
    • Doesn't have to take an extra feat
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Why would any sane DM grant your required fiat points?

    Doubling the efficacy of Blade Pact "just because"?

    I don't get it...

    Edit: Not sure I was clear. So, you're saying this is a great build as long as you don't follow the rules for the blade pact or you homebrew changes to blade pact or new weapons?

    I can make any class fantastic is I change the way their core mechanics work to advantage the class.
    Last edited by Safety Sword; 2015-06-23 at 02:02 AM.
    "If I went around saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint threw a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..." - Dennis, aged 37 - Executive Officer of the Week, Anarcho-syndicalist commune, somewhere in Britain.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Sword View Post
    Why would any sane DM grant your required fiat points?

    Doubling the efficacy of Blade Pact "just because"?

    I don't get it...

    Edit: Not sure I was clear. So, you're saying this is a great build as long as you don't follow the rules for the blade pact or you homebrew changes to blade pact or new weapons?

    I can make any class fantastic is I change the way their core mechanics work to advantage the class.
    Double? You're going to have to post the math for that one. The maximum damage difference is 5 points per round by level 19, or 8 if someone casts magic weapon on you. Attunement limits and spells / abilities like magic weapon are the main reason why dual wield is not generally competitive, so this is not unreasonable. In addition, I pointed out that it wasn't necessary either.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Post Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Thanks for the catch on action surge, I forgot to cleanse part of the OP when I updated the build.

    Regarding polearm mastery, two things I can say in the dual wielder's defense
    • Higher initiative
    • Doesn't have to take an extra feat
    Let's boil it way way down and say that if your DM allows variant human this melee lock is significantly better with a polearm, but if you play any other race the gap shortens to the point of viability for TWF since you'll be far more likely to max your Dex and Cha. The polearm Lock is only going to be able to max out STR.

    So... math. Polearm is 16 Cha and 20 STR, 4 attacks. 3d10+4d6(hex)+1d4+32. Or TWF at 20/20. 3 Attacks, 3d8+3d6(hex)+25 RAW, +30 if your DM is nice.

    TWF will have +3 or 4 more initiative and can wear Dex armor for AC. Will have better Dex saves and stronger spellcasting potential.

    Polearm can potentially add +40! more damage to its total with GWM, can Lift/Carry far more than the TWF build and is far more mobile in combat. Less AC but AoA/Fireshield + temp HP means you want to get hit. Your roll is running bomb.

    Breaking it down like that my thought is that Polearm is better but TWF is definitely viable. You'll be casting more spells and essentially be better suited as field control with tanking/damage potential instead of straight damage like the polearm lock.

    But then if you want to play a tankier bladelock I'd have an argument for Dueling, dex weapon with Shield Mastery instead. I think the problem with a TWF Lock is that its trying to do a couple of things relatively well instead of just picking a roll and optimizing for it. End of the day though its about what you have fun with, not what's best on paper! :-)
    Last edited by Millface; 2015-06-23 at 11:19 AM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    What if we removed the scimitars and went clubs , then roll that into shengliiah through a ritual caster feat?

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Millface View Post
    Let's boil it way way down and say that if your DM allows variant human this melee lock is significantly better with a polearm, but if you play any other race the gap shortens to the point of viability for TWF since you'll be far more likely to max your Dex and Cha. The polearm Lock is only going to be able to max out STR.

    So... math. Polearm is 16 Cha and 20 STR, 4 attacks. 3d10+4d6(hex)+1d4+32. Or TWF at 20/20. 3 Attacks, 3d8+3d6(hex)+25 RAW, +30 if your DM is nice.

    TWF will have +3 or 4 more initiative and can wear Dex armor for AC. Will have better Dex saves and stronger spellcasting potential.

    Polearm can potentially add +40! more damage to its total with GWM, can Lift/Carry far more than the TWF build and is far more mobile in combat. Less AC but AoA/Fireshield + temp HP means you want to get hit. Your roll is running bomb.

    Breaking it down like that my thought is that Polearm is better but TWF is definitely viable. You'll be casting more spells and essentially be better suited as field control with tanking/damage potential instead of straight damage like the polearm lock.
    Wtf. Where did you get four attacks for polearm mastery? Are you assuming that someone will approach every round, and that you'd rather react with an attack instead of hellish rebuke? That's pretty dubious. Furthermore, you have now added two feats to the polearm mastery build, having also taken GWM. That's redundant on a warlock, who will get more mileage out of stats and casting potential. The dual wield build was able to afford war caster, which probably has a bigger impact on damage than GWM due to Eldritch blast opportunity attacks. Finally, the bit about being more mobile is unsupported.

    All I'm saying is that the dual wield build is fine. It doesn't have to be the absolute best at everything, but it's fine. And the damage is really not all that far away from polearm mastery, especially with some minor DM fiat.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Wtf. Where did you get four attacks for polearm mastery? Are you assuming that someone will approach every round, and that you'd rather react with an attack instead of hellish rebuke? That's pretty dubious. Furthermore, you have now added two feats to the polearm mastery build, having also taken GWM. That's redundant on a warlock, who will get more mileage out of stats and casting potential. The dual wield build was able to afford war caster, which probably has a bigger impact on damage than GWM due to Eldritch blast opportunity attacks. Finally, the bit about being more mobile is unsupported.

    All I'm saying is that the dual wield build is fine. It doesn't have to be the absolute best at everything, but it's fine. And the damage is really not all that far away from polearm mastery, especially with some minor DM fiat.
    Good catch, I read polearm mastery as when YOU enter you get an opportunity attack. Well, strike mobile then. The build altogether requires two feats and no DM fiat. Warcaster essentially gives you an EB reaction if a creature moves through your space, while PA Mastery allows you an attack reaction if if a creature moves through your space OR into it. Those really cancel each other out. Obviously Hellish Rebuke is your best reaction option, I was just trying to add things up that were exclusive to one build or the other.


    you're basically sacrificing ~27 damage per round for an ASI. ~32 DPR without the DM override (more if your polearm eventually adds additional elemental damage dice, ie flametongue) and a potential attunement slot, which can be insurmountably useful.

    I don't see anything wrong at all with you playing what you like and having fun with it, but the statement that this build is close in damage to a GWF build is just false and the title is misleading. This fact has been beaten to death on these forums. The only way it gets close is if your DM lets you run around with a flametongue and a frostbrand and only charges one attunement slot for the both of them AND lets you pact them both despite RAW saying you can't.

    Is it really a competitive build when it uses DM overrides to close the gap? (and still falls short)

    Yes, you go faster in combat, yes your spells are +1 harder to save against but the title leads us to believe you found a way to make TWF almost as good as GWF as far as raw damage in melee combat.

    My original post was just to say, first, that this build is very viable and looks fun, but second to inform that competitive for damage it is not. Even when you account for the -5 +10 being 25% less likely to hit, 32 * 75% is 24 and a 24 DPR difference and an extra attunement slot is not "close".

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Double? You're going to have to post the math for that one. The maximum damage difference is 5 points per round by level 19, or 8 if someone casts magic weapon on you. Attunement limits and spells / abilities like magic weapon are the main reason why dual wield is not generally competitive, so this is not unreasonable. In addition, I pointed out that it wasn't necessary either.
    Well done on missing my point entirely.

    Are you changing the blade pact to be two weapons instead of one weapon? That's a doubling of the effect.
    "If I went around saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint threw a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..." - Dennis, aged 37 - Executive Officer of the Week, Anarcho-syndicalist commune, somewhere in Britain.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Sword View Post
    Well done on missing my point entirely.

    Are you changing the blade pact to be two weapons instead of one weapon? That's a doubling of the effect.
    No it isn't. Wielding a second weapon allows for one bonus attack. That's not doubling the effect. Even in the case of lifedrinker, the added damage goes from a maximum of 10 (2*5) to a maximum of 15 (3*5), a number which was already possible with polearm mastery. All I did was balance the effect.

    Why do so many people on these forums hate balance?
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2015-06-23 at 07:12 PM.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    No it isn't. Wielding a second weapon allows for one bonus attack. That's not doubling the effect. Even in the case of lifedrinker, the added damage goes from a maximum of 10 (2*5) to a maximum of 15 (3*5), a number which was already possible with polearm mastery. All I did was balance the effect.

    Why do so many people on these forums hate balance?
    I don't care about those numbers. I am only looking at the ability you need changed. You have indeed doubled the number of pact weapons a warlock has now.

    Did you previously have one pact weapon, but you are allowing now for two pact weapons? You have doubled the number of pact weapons. You have doubled the effect of the blade pact.

    Why do some people on these forums hate that sometimes the numbers aren't important?
    "If I went around saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint threw a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..." - Dennis, aged 37 - Executive Officer of the Week, Anarcho-syndicalist commune, somewhere in Britain.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Safety Sword View Post
    Did you previously have one pact weapon, but you are allowing now for two pact weapons? You have doubled the number of pact weapons. You have doubled the effect of the blade pact.
    I already addressed that point, so I'm just going to walk away from this one. "Two weapons is double the effect!" You might want to reread the TWF rules.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    I already addressed that point, so I'm just going to walk away from this one. "Two weapons is double the effect!" You might want to reread the TWF rules.
    You might want to stay. I'm not saying that the effect on your combat output is doubled. I'm saying that you're doubling what the pact weapon ability does. Read man.
    "If I went around saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint threw a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..." - Dennis, aged 37 - Executive Officer of the Week, Anarcho-syndicalist commune, somewhere in Britain.

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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    Check out Monk 3 and Warlock 17. Seriously, it's pretty baller. Especially if the DM will let you burn a feat for extra ki.
    I am BoutsofInsanity and my name isn't a metaphor.


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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Battlelock - Competitive DW Damage Build

    The Hexblade Patron and the Improved Pact Weapon Invocations, both from UAs, fit perfectly to this build.

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