Wield Exotic Weapon [Skill]

[Gorbash Kazdar]

I recently designed a bunch of new weapons, and in the thread Jack Mann made a good point - that most exotic weapons really aren't worth a feat. It's something I've generally agreed with, that for the most part, just about any other feat and a non-exotic weapon will be as good or better than the EWP and the exotic weapon.

That being said, I like a lot of exotic weapons, and I like the overall concept of having to train for specific one, rather than just granting a broad proficiency for them. Additionally, making most exotic weapons more powerful is tricky, I think.

So, I present a possible alternate rule - instead of spending feats on exotic weapons, spend skill points. I would give all classes with full BAB Wield Exotic Weapon as a class skill. I would also give it to the monk, psychic warrior, ninja, and swordsage.

Wield Exotic Weapon (None; Trained Only)
Like Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession, Wield Exotic Weapon represents a number of separate skills. For example, ranks Wield Exotic Weapon (dwarven waraxe) do not apply for Wield Exotic Weapon (spiked chain). You can have several Wield Exotic Weapon skills, each purchased as a separate skill and tied to a particular weapon.

Action: Not applicable.

Try Again: Not applicable.

The Wield Exotic Weapon skill doesn't work like other skills. For each rank in Wield Exotic Weapon, you reduce the non-proficient penalty (-4) for wielding an exotic weapon by one. Four ranks spent eliminates the penalty entirely. Additional ranks grant no further bonuses or effects.

[hr]
Alternatively, the following rule could simply be added in.

Exotic Weapons
In order to wield an exotic weapon effectively, you must undergo special training. By spending four skill points, you may purchase a proficiency in a single exotic weapon.

[hr]
Thoughts? Personally, I think I actually prefer the latter for its simplicity, but I do like giving an advantage to certain martial classes in learning to use exotic weapons.

[Fax Celestis]

"Additional ranks..." do what?

It seems sound: much like buying a language, you're buying a weapon.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

"Additional ranks..." do what?

Nothing Accidentally deleted the end of the sentence during a copy/pasta.

It seems sound: much like buying a language, you're buying a weapon.

That was the underlying concept. I also worked off of the barbarian's option of spending 2 skill points to become literate.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

GITP solves yet another thing I didn't like about D&D.

I'm a huge fan of exotic weapons- they're a relatively simple and highly traditional way to make melee type 'stand out' from his fellows, a paramount consideration for players and villain-mongering DMs alike...but exotic weapons are, without the influence of metric tonnes of cheese, sub-optimal choices as far as feats are concerned.

However, even a fighter can easily afford to spend points to increase his weapons versatility, and it's absolute candy to a combat-minded rogue.

I'm definitively inclined to use this rule.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Glad you like it On the flip side, 4 skill points is not an insignificant expenditure, especially at low levels. For most classes, you have about as many critical skills as you do base skill points, if not more, so either you have to spend extra point buy on Int (or spend a better stat on Int, if you're rolling), or accept that one of your skills is going to be lost or significantly behind normal progression. Of course, skill points aren't as limited as feats are, so it's still a cheaper buy than the standard rule.

[Raistlin1040]

Looks cool. The only character that this wouldn't be beneficial to is a fighter 'cause he gets so many bonus feats. I'd make an exception for a fighter, but I could see my paladin or ranger using skill points.

[Fax Celestis]

As for your concern, it's still accessible for other classes as a cross-class skill, so...

An idea: what about adding an addendum: spending 2 points decreases the penalty for using an oversized weapon by 1.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Glad you like it On the flip side, 4 skill points is not an insignificant expenditure, especially at low levels. For most classes, you have about as many critical skills as you do base skill points, if not more, so either you have to spend extra point buy on Int (or spend a better stat on Int, if you're rolling), or accept that one of your skills is going to be lost or significantly behind normal progression. Of course, skill points aren't as limited as feats are, so it's still a cheaper buy than the standard rule.

True enough, but the opportunity cost is still significantly lower; and in addition, most fighters especially, and most characters in general, are working on one or more feat 'chains', thus increasing the cost of a feat even more- an extra skill point or two that downgrades your potential as a jumper or bluffer or hide-person is going to be a choice a character can reasonably make, while delaying your build's acquisition of that crucial spring attack feat et. al. may not be.

So, in summary, I agree; it's not an insignificant cost, but I reiterate my support, because it's a fundamentally justifiable cost- which is the 'sweet spot' for character enhancement opportunities.

[Mr Pants]

gorbash, you're my hero. this even gives another benefit for martial classes to have a high int. also i like fax's idea to use oversized weapons as well

[Miatog]

I need to link this to my GM. I'm making a build that need uses Kukri, Battle Grieves, and Bladded Gauntlets to attack 6 times with a standard action (NOTE: This works cause my GM changed Two-Weapon Fighting around so that it's useful).

With this, I can save 2 feats to use for other things!

[Matthew]

Isn't this just a step along the way to making Skill Points and Feats interchangable? Mightn't we as well just go back to (A)D&D Character Points to build Characters?

[Fax Celestis]

Kindasotranotreally. This is more akin to skill tricks than to that.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Isn't this just a step along the way to making Skill Points and Feats interchangable? Mightn't we as well just go back to (A)D&D Character Points to build Characters?

Not necessarily. The primary point here is that EWP is a really poor feat. So, my thought is that there shouldn't be an EWP feat at all. It doesn't mean that a feat is worth 4 skill points. In fact, the official feat that grants skill points grants 5, so a feat is worth at least that much. However, I would say trading in five skill points for a bonus feat wouldn't be balanced - in fact, I don't think any skill-points-for-feats cost would work.

But, I do think that exotic weapons are a tenable and interesting idea, they just don't provide enough benefit for the cost of a feat. Based on how 3.x works, and working from Speak Language, the barbarian literacy rule, and the Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel, spending skill points on sub-feat level special abilities that don't scale the way normal skills do makes a lot of sense.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Oh wow...I like this alot Gorbash but I have a question.

Its a granted that most people are only going to spend enough skill points to become proficient in the weapon that they want to use and thats it, but shouldn't there be something else going for the skill?

I mean a fighter dumps four skill points to use an exotic weapon and then completely forgets the skill, which I think doesn't do it justice.

So, considering your using this rule...

Wield Exotic Weapon (None; Trained Only)
Like Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession, Wield Exotic Weapon represents a number of separate skills. For example, ranks Wield Exotic Weapon (dwarven waraxe) do not apply for Wield Exotic Weapon (spiked chain). You can have several Wield Exotic Weapon skills, each purchased as a separate skill and tied to a particular weapon.

Action: Not applicable.

Try Again: Not applicable.

The Wield Exotic Weapon skill doesn't work like other skills. In order to wield an exotic weapon effectively, you must undergo special training. By spending four skill points, you may purchase a proficiency in a single exotic weapon.

..then what about this addendum...

For every 5 (Not a set number, but it seems reasonable) skill points you invest in this skill, increase the bonus the weapon gives on special combat actions (Trip, disarm, etc. etc.) by 1.

Special:This skill may also be used to grant the ability to use a weapon one size category (As the Monkey Grip feat) with the same penalties at the cost of four skill points. Every skill point after the original four reduces the penalty for using a larger weapon by 1. This skill does not allow you to use a weapon larger then one size category larger then you are.

Seem like a good addition Gorbash or have I defiled your creation?

[Matthew]

Don't get me wrong, this is a reasonable solution, but it does seem to me to be setting a precedent: i.e. If you think a Feat is weak, assign it a Skill Point Cost and buy it under the table.

Personally, I like the Character Point Mechanic, so you won't hear any complaints from me.

[Fax Celestis]

To be honest, that's how I think most weak feats should be handled. Dodge should be a purchase rate of Tumble, for instance.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Oh wow...I like this alot Gorbash but I have a question.

Its a granted that most people are only going to spend enough skill points to become proficient in the weapon that they want to use and thats it, but shouldn't there be something else going for the skill?

I mean a fighter dumps four skill points to use an exotic weapon and then completely forgets the skill, which I think doesn't do it justice.

So, considering your using this rule...

..then what about this addendum...

Seem like a good addition Gorbash or have I defiled your creation?

The fact that you spend and then stop was something I considered, but in the end I decided to stick with it. I felt that there wasn't really an additional bonus from additional "ranks" that could both make it worth spending for those "ranks" but also not make exotic weapons too powerful - to the point that every fighter would take it. Also, the spend-and-stop method also makes it a more defined opportunity cost - again, not as much as a feat, but more than just a typical skill, which I felt was right on target.

Also, as far as buying an exotic weapon proficiency with a feat, under this system you can still do that - just take Open Minded, from CAd. That gives you the 4 skill points for the proficiency, plus an extra one to spend on an actual skill. I still think it's an inefficient use of a feat, but it's doable.