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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    This may have been mentioned, but the rant that the OP saying he wasn't going to change it, does that count in regards to errors? The author of these guides obviously didn't realize that incorporeality changed in Pathfinder. Or has he completely abandoned them?

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArioch View Post
    This may have been mentioned, but the rant that the OP saying he wasn't going to change it, does that count in regards to errors? The author of these guides obviously didn't realize that incorporeality changed in Pathfinder. Or has he completely abandoned them?
    You mean the rant that I (should have) removed from all the guides at this point(and I apologize if it hasn't been pulled from all of the guides at this point, I may have missed one)?

    There is a story behind this whole thing that involves some very personal and private issues that were going on in my life (and still are to some extent) around the time that PoW:E was released. Because of these issues, I wasn't able to devote time necessary to fix up the guides, and I started getting spammed with requests, demands and even at one point threats to update these guides from people who had never met me and didn't even realize the extent to which I was involved in the actual writing of PoW:E. I admit now that I was not in a good place when that was written, but I was getting really tired of the way people were treating me and of having to explain to everyone over and over why I couldn't do this free thing for them that they wanted me to do.

    Aside from the extended period of time I needed to get my life back on track, I also have to reconcile the need to maintain objectivity within the guides. That's why there's a list of items in the first post that I won't be writing guides on. In reality, I shouldn't be reviewing any PoW:E material because I've touched every single part of it at some point or another and that violates the objectivity I feel is necessary to produce a well written and useful guide to any game material.

    So, given that I am still trying to put my life together (again) and that I am still struggling with reconciling the promise I made to continue updating these guides with the belief that a person responsible for writing the material cannot provide an objective analysis of that material I've neglected to do any truly significant updates, possibly in the hopes that someone else will finally take up the torch (like the fantastic guide that Castilonium wrote for the Zealot).

    I hope that provides a clearer picture for you than the previously standoffish message I left a year or so ago.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Fair enough, thank you for clarifying.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    So is Riven Hourglass still the King or have other Disciplines rose to challenge its throne?
    Last edited by skaddix; 2017-09-05 at 10:53 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    So is Riven Hourglass still the King or have other Disciplines rose to challenge its throne?
    Is RH the King of Disciplines? And I didn't even get invited to the coronation ceremony?

    More seriously though, I kinda agree that it's probably the least build/level dependent and most universally good/great discipline. But if that's what got RH on the throne, it seems to me that in the proverbial Kingdom of Disciplines, the monarch doesn't have much real power. IOW, I think the question "what is the best discipline" is far too broad, as a meaningful answer is thankfully still specific.

    Also, I think there are only a handful of RH maneuvers that actually stand out as universally great, while a large majority are just as build dependent as those of other disciplines.

    Anyhow, I think for example Golden Lion, Fool's Errand and Eternal Guardian aren't far behind in terms of universally good/great maneuvers, as well as Broken Blade in its current non-errata-ed version. The three former disciplines also happen to be decently to very well balanced IMO, a parameter which I definitely think should be factored in when comparing disciplines.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Can anybody explain Golden Lion to me?
    The way i see it,it grants some puny morale bonuses,attempts to break action economy but not nearly hard enough and...what else is there?
    Last edited by Draacul; 2017-09-07 at 12:07 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Is RH the King of Disciplines? And I didn't even get invited to the coronation ceremony?

    More seriously though, I kinda agree that it's probably the least build/level dependent and most universally good/great discipline. But if that's what got RH on the throne, it seems to me that in the proverbial Kingdom of Disciplines, the monarch doesn't have much real power. IOW, I think the question "what is the best discipline" is far too broad, as a meaningful answer is thankfully still specific.

    Also, I think there are only a handful of RH maneuvers that actually stand out as universally great, while a large majority are just as build dependent as those of other disciplines.

    Anyhow, I think for example Golden Lion, Fool's Errand and Eternal Guardian aren't far behind in terms of universally good/great maneuvers, as well as Broken Blade in its current non-errata-ed version. The three former disciplines also happen to be decently to very well balanced IMO, a parameter which I definitely think should be factored in when comparing disciplines.
    Well the point is its King because its like Ketchup right it goes on anything. It doesn't force you to play any style and can be combined easily with any other disciplines.

    Fool's Errand has Lock which can be hard to understand requires you to level a worthless skill.
    Golden Lion is more about helping your teammates...its very strong I agree but not every player cares about helping their teammates that much.
    Broke Blade does bring the pain...does it still require you to focus on unarmed combat because again for most maneveurs cause stylistically not everyone wants to play that way.
    Eternal Guardian is strong but its focused around abusing reach and AOOs which granted isn't a bad way to go but not for everyone.

    RH simply combines great with everything. So sure it might not be the most optimal choice in all cases but is all never at risk of being a bad choice either.

    But really it depends on your concept and how many different disciplines you want to mix together.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Can anybody explain Golden Lion to me?
    The way i see it,it grants some puny morale bonuses,attempts to break action economy but not nearly hard enough and...what else is there?
    Puny morale bonuses? Is granting your entire party +10 morale to hit, damage, AC, and saves considered puny in your games?

    If not, I think you need to have another look at Golden Lion maneuvers; they can turn you into a bard on steroids, and can offer your party a lot more in terms of improving action economy. Or read the related section in Castilonium's excellent zealot guide (although Golden Lion is especially great for zealots, I think Castilonium's comments on the maneuvers will still give you a good idea of their general use and power).

    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Well the point is its King because its like Ketchup right it goes on anything. It doesn't force you to play any style and can be combined easily with any other disciplines.
    Ha ha! Of course, it's the ketchup discipline!

    And yeah, I agree. Quite a few of the best RH maneuvers will be excellent for any build. (And also when I'm looking at the example initiator builds I've put up on this forum myself during the last year, the most commonly shared disciplines seem to be RH and Fool's Errand.)

    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Fool's Errand has Lock which can be hard to understand requires you to level a worthless skill.
    Golden Lion is more about helping your teammates...its very strong I agree but not every player cares about helping their teammates that much.
    Broke Blade does bring the pain...does it still require you to focus on unarmed combat because again for most maneveurs cause stylistically not everyone wants to play that way.
    Eternal Guardian is strong but its focused around abusing reach and AOOs which granted isn't a bad way to go but not for everyone.
    My point was more that these disciplines also contain some very strong maneuvers that are great for virtually any (melee) build. Not quite as universally great as the best of RH, but not far from it. (And I think Climb ranks are far from required to benefit from Fool's Errand, and the skill is also far from worthless if you do focus on related maneuvers. Likewise, there's really no need to focus on unarmed to benefit hugely from Broken Blade, nor do you need to make any investments into a reach AoO combat style in order to benefit from Eternal Guardian. But I agree the fluff aspects of these disciplines are also less universally applicable than those of RH.)

    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    RH simply combines great with everything. So sure it might not be the most optimal choice in all cases but is all never at risk of being a bad choice either.

    But really it depends on your concept and how many different disciplines you want to mix together.
    Totally agree.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Puny morale bonuses? Is granting your entire party +10 morale to hit, damage, AC, and saves considered puny in your games?

    If not, I think you need to have another look at Golden Lion maneuvers; they can turn you into a bard on steroids, and can offer your party a lot more in terms of improving action economy. Or read the related section in Castilonium's excellent zealot guide (although Golden Lion is especially great for zealots, I think Castilonium's comments on the maneuvers will still give you a good idea of their general use and power).
    In my games,abilities that come online at level 17 considered to be non-existent.VERY few APs go that high.
    Yes,i did read said guide.Which really should be named"Guide to all things Path of War"
    So,my problem here is:you get a +2 att/dam boost at level 1.This is ONLY such boost until level 17.
    You get +4 AC boost at level 3.This,again,does not improve in any way.You're not a bard on steroids,you're a bard bards laugh at.And you can't fall much lower than that.
    Trolling action economy is nice...until we understand that crown maneuver here is Call to Action,which grants an ally a move action,except...it's a melee attack,ally needs to be adjacent and ally needs to be able to do something useful with said move action(and not get hit in the face from probably adjacent opponent).Which to me sounds like Coalition Victory from MtG,except you don't get to win the game.
    And this is to me what Golden Lion is about.Lots of possibilities,but reward isn't good enough to care.But it has one of the best 2nd level counters in the game,so there is that.
    And i guess +4AC boost is something way better than it sounds.
    Maybe i did look at it the wrong way.Who cares if discipline sucks as a whole if you only use that +4AC boost for the rest of your career?

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Well more details would be nice what levels do you plan to play through? What else is in your party? What class are you actually playing? What other disciplines are you interested in or planning to take? Preferred fighting style such as sword and board, reach weapon, two hander, two weapon?

    Golden Lion works best with Zealot and is primarily about boosting teammates hence the synergy with Zealot.

    I mean listening to you it sounds like you want to do damage if that is the case the aforementioned broken blade is your new best friend. If you want to do some support via battlefield control and not buffing your teammates then you have more options like Eternal Guardian. If you want to heal teammates Silver Crane is there. If you want to troll action economy then Riven Hourglass will let you personally give it the finger.
    Last edited by skaddix; 2017-09-08 at 08:22 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    In my games,abilities that come online at level 17 considered to be non-existent.VERY few APs go that high.
    Oh, I agree it's not a very good example, my comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek since you happened to mention morale bonuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Yes,i did read said guide.Which really should be named"Guide to all things Path of War"
    Heh, yeah it's pretty darn thorough. (And easily one of the top five PF class guides I've ever seen.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    So,my problem here is:you get a +2 att/dam boost at level 1.This is ONLY such boost until level 17.
    It seems to me your way of looking at Golden Lion maneuvers may be a bit myopic. Judging from quite a few other posts on this forum, I think you're far from alone in this, and it's not strange considering many of the basic parameters normally used to compare game options are simply too narrow to be applicable in this case. It's similar to the reason why many players fail to see how a conjuration focused God wizard can be so much more powerful than a blaster sorcerer, although more complex not nearly as clear-cut. My short and somewhat over-generalized recommendation is that you compare the benefits of GL maneuvers with those of other disciplines at a tactical party-wide resolution, rather than at a strategic personal (initiator) resolution (see below). I'd also recommend you don't judge the maneuvers in a vacuum, but imagine them used in combinations aiming to maximize their benefits (which quite a few GL maneuvers are also great for, despite having seemingly rather mediocre direct effects).

    In more detail, I think there are two things which many of the best maneuvers in this discipline share and which differentiates GL from other disciplines:
    1. Tactics above all. Things at a strategic level (character build choices, daily resource management etc) have relatively little impact on the effectiveness of GL maneuvers, while things at a tactical level (like positioning/terrain, maneuver/spell/power/ability use orders, initiative orders, statuses of combatants etc) can have a huge impact. Characters/parties using poor tactics won't get much out of GL, while those using great tactics are likely to also benefit greatly. For example, the benefits of maneuvers like Hunting Party, Tactical Strike, Pyrite Strike, Kill the Wounded, Golden Swipe, Roar of Battle etc, can typically vary between really poor and absolutely awesome, and the benefits correspond unusually well to the quality of a party's combat tactics. I think this tactical nature makes GL stand out not just from other martial disciplines, but also from a vast majority of abilities in the game as a whole.
    2. Party focus. The initiator of a good GL maneuver is rarely the one who directly benefits the most from the maneuver's effect. For example, Pyrite Strike grants the initiator a mere standard attack with a +1d6 damage bonus, while it may grant every other party member a free AoO trigger. Tons of 2nd level strikes of other disciplines can grant the initiator much stronger direct benefits, but I dare say none can come even remotely close to match the potential overall party benefit of Pyrite Strike (it can grant more than seven additional attacks at full bab, enough to make several higher level swift-move-standard maneuver combinations of other disciplines appear pathetically weak). This party focus is also the primary strategic element of GL maneuvers, as party composition, party size and the members' builds effectively put caps on the potential of many GL maneuvers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    You get +4 AC boost at level 3.This,again,does not improve in any way.You're not a bard on steroids,you're a bard bards laugh at.And you can't fall much lower than that.
    My comment was meant in the broader context of party support, meaning "granting allies benefits which help your party win combats". And you don't need to provide allies with any numerical bonuses at all in order to be awesome in a support role.

    (Slightly OT, but I also think PF bards are generally solid and versatile T3, and can be very strong with a bit of optimization. So I'd say you can indeed fall much lower than that...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Trolling action economy is nice...until we understand that crown maneuver here is Call to Action,which grants an ally a move action,except...it's a melee attack,ally needs to be adjacent and ally needs to be able to do something useful with said move action(and not get hit in the face from probably adjacent opponent).Which to me sounds like Coalition Victory from MtG,except you don't get to win the game.
    So why name Call to Action the "crown maneuver" of GL action economy boosters? As with many of the stronger GL maneuvers, it's not great by itself and definitely not for all allies or in all situations, but it has the potential to be very powerful (at least for a 2nd level maneuver).

    A few examples for primarily martial allies at various low/mid levels:
    • Allow your party's hard-hitting full attacker to move into position, granting your party a hefty damage boost (with the potential to take out a dangerous foe before it has been able to act at all in the fight).
    • Let your pummeling/pouncing/lancing supercharger ally move into charge position (for potentially huge damage boosts).
    • Put your AoO reach defender ally in the perfect position to stop enemies from getting to squishier party members.
    • Grant your grapple focused ally an additional grapple check (potentially allowing for completely locking down/tying up an additional foe).

    There are tons of other good/great uses of course, but I think you get the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    And this is to me what Golden Lion is about.Lots of possibilities,but reward isn't good enough to care.But it has one of the best 2nd level counters in the game,so there is that.
    And i guess +4AC boost is something way better than it sounds.
    Golden Lion does indeed have lots of possibilities, but you'll vastly underestimate the potential reward if you don't change your perspectives. And yes, the reward will remain poor unless you get creative, start thinking in terms of party tactics, and get those involved on board and acting accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Maybe i did look at it the wrong way.Who cares if discipline sucks as a whole if you only use that +4AC boost for the rest of your career?
    If you assume the simple numerical boosts represent the best GL can offer your PC, you should of course only invest in those. But don't judge the discipline's general power potential based on that assumption. (And to a large extent, I think the weaker maneuvers of a discipline are actually irrelevant when comparing disciplines, as the flexible system means you'll virtually always be able to pick a better option, from the same discipline or another one.)

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    How has the (first half of the) errata effected these guides?
    Last edited by digiman619; 2017-09-09 at 01:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    In general, this is favorable to the casters.
    3.5 in a nutshell, ladies and gents.
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Yeah the powers of Golden Lion are more indirect you boost the teams damage and effectiveness but if you did a damage chart it wouldn't make you top of the charts but overall your team will be doing better. Granted it works best if you are a Zealot since Zealot extends the range of your maneuvers greatly. If not a Zealot then you want a heavy melee team.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    If you assume the simple numerical boosts represent the best GL can offer your PC, you should of course only invest in those. But don't judge the discipline's general power potential based on that assumption. (And to a large extent, I think the weaker maneuvers of a discipline are actually irrelevant when comparing disciplines, as the flexible system means you'll virtually always be able to pick a better option, from the same discipline or another one.)
    I don't.Problem here,i'm a pessimist.You look at it and see what GL can do.I look and see what it WILL do.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    So why name Call to Action the "crown maneuver" of GL action economy boosters?
    Because it comes online in the first adventure and on paper has really nice effects.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    [*]Put your AoO reach defender ally in the perfect position to stop enemies from getting to squishier party members.
    Simple example:yes,this is possible.A long as that defender is a)adjacent to you,b)it's position isn't already good enough considering you are in the frontline by definition.Extreme positioning and intiative tracking(and coordination) is required to make it even somewhat useful.Oh,it may work.In one-on-one games where the single player controls the entire party(and yes,i do sometimes run these).
    Possibilities are endless,yes.But in reality KISS principle is in full force.+4 to AC is simple,practical and universally useful.Spending one of your most likely two 2nd level maneuvers on something that might not work is...questionable.
    So among my players,GL is the first candidate to be exchanged for something useful.Like Elemental Flux or Riven Hourglass.
    Last edited by Draacul; 2017-09-09 at 05:10 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Really? Usually my players/me exchange the one ranged discipline almost all initiators have. The closest I've come to building a golden lion specialist is for somebody going for Nemean Lion Hide, my initiators usually pick up a couple maneuvers from it, because I like helping out my teammates. I quite like the Pyrite Strike line for that purpose.

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Draacul, I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. As an example, let's take a party of a Warlord, Fighter (or other melee class), Wizard and Cleric (these two are just for purposes of the example). Our Warlord will focus on using Golden Lion maneuvers.

    Encouraging Roar is a swift action +2 to attack and damage. It can be extended to last three rounds with the Community Minded trait. A 3 round boost to attack and damage rolls is significant and can easily be kept up for the duration of the battle.

    Demoralizing Roar debuffs the enemy and starts the train on fear stacking, which can easily debilitate or end most fights.

    Hunting Party is an extra attack for your Fighter that they might not be able to use every round. Opportunity attacks require triggers, and once engaged with an enemy they rarely do things to trigger extra attacks. It's not uncommon to have two melee characters adjacent to each other during combat, especially in small rooms or caves.

    Pride Movement and Tactical Strike both offer similar benefits but deliver them through different methods. If the Warlord and Fighter are engaging the same opponent, or otherwise stuck, both Pride Movement and Tactical Strike can be used to disengage the fighter while still allowing you to attack the blocking enemy. With the fighter free, they can charge a new target, or re-engage the same target while still getting the bonus from charging. Pride Movement can also be used to safely disengage a party spellcaster that got trapped by an enemy that got past you, or to increase the movement speed of an ally so that they can reach targets that are further away than their normal movement speed. Don't discount an extra 20-30 ft. of movement on a large battlefield.

    In the Second Level of the discipline, you have Warning Roar, which you didn't mention explicitly but maybe implicitly with "one of the best counters in the game." Which it is, being a skill counter, negating an attack at range and being low level.

    But you also have Distracting Strike. Flat-footing an opponent is not to be underestimated. Aside from rogues and other backstabbers loving the easy setup, it also reduces most enemy's AC on subsequent attacks.

    Pyrite Strike's movement provokes attacks of opportunity on the target. Not only are you shoving an enemy around, but it also triggers attacks from allies. Additionally, it has no provision against pushing the target into harmful terrain. If an enemy manages to get out of a trap your Wizard set, you can shove them right back in.

    3rd Level's Circling the Prey gives 5-ft. Steps to your entire party. Disengage, close the gap, block off spellcasters, move into flanking position... the tactical ramifications of free movement are myriad and often underestimated.

    If you fancy boss killers, Kill the Wounded adds 2d6 damage to the target for every one of your allies attacks. It doesn't specify melee, nor does it specify weapon attacks. Any attack against that target gains +2d6 damage. Archers, twfers, blaster wizards who like chaining spells all gain massive benefits from the strike.

    A lot of people struggle to see how important being able to move around the battlefield is in this game. Or they ignore anything that doesn't directly correlate to additional attack damage, but the ability to move your allies around to free up their other actions for full attacks, spellcasting, charges, or other special actions is extremely useful. You won't use every ability in every combat, but that's true of every single discipline and is why you're allowed to pull maneuvers from multiple disciplines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph View Post
    Really? Usually my players/me exchange the one ranged discipline almost all initiators have
    Solar Wind is the most often second candidate,yes.But after errata Intercepting Shade suddenly got better,because it can be used with melee weapons.So,a pure parry-type counter,atk vs atk.
    Blinding Ray was ALWAYS good.Having two of them you can take Twisting Wind Shot and have some fun with firearms.But usually Solar Wind's selling point is Blinding Ray.
    No-save(and no damage,but who cares)blindness is a pure gold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Draacul, I think you're missing the forest for the trees here.
    Entirely possible.Which is why i raised the question,because i suspect that forest in fact exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Encouraging Roar is a swift action +2 to attack and damage. It can be extended to last three rounds with the Community Minded trait. A 3 round boost to attack and damage rolls is significant and can easily be kept up for the duration of the battle.
    It LOOKS significant,sure,but it doesn't scale and there are countless abilities that overlap with it.I know about community-minded,i've just never met a person who allowed it in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    \
    Demoralizing Roar debuffs the enemy and starts the train on fear stacking, which can easily debilitate or end most fights.
    Will negates,and we ALL know how often Warlord after errata has any kind of charisma.Also you need to attack,which prevents,say,Privateer from laughing the enemy away and AGAIN forcing you to carry out some actions you possibly might not want to.This is all GL is about:conditions.Except Defending the Pride.It just works.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Hunting Party is an extra attack for your Fighter that they might not be able to use every round. Opportunity attacks require triggers, and once engaged with an enemy they rarely do things to trigger extra attacks. It's not uncommon to have two melee characters adjacent to each other during combat, especially in small rooms or caves.
    This is objectively worse than two attacks against a target which Broken Blade gets or two attacks against different targets at +2 that Mithral Current gets.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Pride Movement and Tactical Strike both offer similar benefits but deliver them through different methods. If the Warlord and Fighter are engaging the same opponent, or otherwise stuck, both Pride Movement and Tactical Strike can be used to disengage the fighter while still allowing you to attack the blocking enemy. With the fighter free, they can charge a new target, or re-engage the same target while still getting the bonus from charging. Pride Movement can also be used to safely disengage a party spellcaster that got trapped by an enemy that got past you, or to increase the movement speed of an ally so that they can reach targets that are further away than their normal movement speed. Don't discount an extra 20-30 ft. of movement on a large battlefield.
    I believe the idea here is that we are,you know,fighting the same enemy.And if we do fight the same enemy,then why we aren't flanking?And if we are flanking,then any maneuvers granting movement to adjacent target suddenly become more problematic.However,1st level maneuvers are numerous,so you can waste a few on things that rarely work.If not for maneuvers readied.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Warning Roar, which you didn't mention explicitly but maybe implicitly with "one of the best counters in the game." Which it is, being a skill counter, negating an attack at range and being low level.
    I actually think that it's better than Fear the Reaper,because it's not fear nor mind affecting nor affecting the attacker in any way.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    But you also have Distracting Strike. Flat-footing an opponent is not to be underestimated. Aside from rogues and other backstabbers loving the easy setup, it also reduces most enemy's AC on subsequent attacks.
    Which would be very nice if we were able to benefit from it in any way!Except we can!There is a flat-footing strike in Mithral Current,and another in Steel Serpent.Which allow you to actually benefit from it,not delay after opponent's action,not forcing your team to delay after your opponent's action and so on.
    Oh,and there is boost in Radiant Dawn on the second level that just flat out flat-foots the target for round AND reduces it's AC with some investment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Pyrite Strike's movement provokes attacks of opportunity on the target. Not only are you shoving an enemy around, but it also triggers attacks from allies. Additionally, it has no provision against pushing the target into harmful terrain. If an enemy manages to get out of a trap your Wizard set, you can shove them right back in.
    All that sounds nice,but in reality it's just one attack of opportunity from our fighter and one attack at +1d6 from us.IF the fighter is in position.It's basically Hunting Party with +1d6 damage,rarely used tactical ability,but at second level.And second level is the best level in the game!
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    3rd Level's Circling the Prey gives 5-ft. Steps to your entire party. Disengage, close the gap, block off spellcasters, move into flanking position... the tactical ramifications of free movement are myriad and often underestimated.
    Free movement,yes.But not free 5-ft step.At least when you grant a move action it's an actual move that can accomplish all of that.5ft is not very significant.It might be,but probably won't.But it will eat your readied slot in any case.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    If you fancy boss killers, Kill the Wounded adds 2d6 damage to the target for every one of your allies attacks. It doesn't specify melee, nor does it specify weapon attacks. Any attack against that target gains +2d6 damage. Archers, twfers, blaster wizards who like chaining spells all gain massive benefits from the strike.
    But by itself it's objectively worse than pretty much any 1st level strike.Which means that you trade your actions for the chance that your allies will do something about it.
    But the problem is deeper.Since that strike does nothing by itself,there is a breakeven point at which it's not practical.Using 3rd level strikes that do nothing but damage as a baseline,this strike requires two successful attacks to break even i.e. do nothing.Three attacks or more means profit in terms of damage.But we only have three more team members!Oh,and this requires target to not die from our attack and two follow-ups from allies.
    There are situations when all of this is easy(archery full attack character in the party),but this is so many conditions i have no words.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    You won't use every ability in every combat, but that's true of every single discipline and is why you're allowed to pull maneuvers from multiple disciplines.
    But you're not a wizard.You can't exchange known maneuvers every day.If you learned a maneuver,you've stuck with it for a long time,if not permanently.
    Last edited by Draacul; 2017-09-09 at 10:45 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    If you and one other guy are the only meleers in the party, Golden Lion perhaps isn't the best choice. But a lot of parties aren't that way; in my party alone, we have a ranger and her companion, a conjurer, a samurai, a brawler, and a melee occultist (me, subbing out of a warlord next chance I get), and that's not mentioning the support cleric. My party is an outlier, but if you have another 2 melee guys in the party besides you (a very real possibility), GL gets a hell of a lot better. Also, being adjacent to an ally and flanking with them as a warlord is very possible, thanks to how tactical flanking was errata'd and Flanking Gambit.


    Comparing Golden Lion to Broken Blade isn't the best way to prove your argument; everyone knows that BB lives up to its name, and is first up on the nerf block when part 2 of the errata is released. Hell, I've soft-banned it in my games (but in my games we try to play PoW conservatively).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph View Post
    If you and one other guy are the only meleers in the party, Golden Lion perhaps isn't the best choice. But a lot of parties aren't that way; in my party alone, we have a ranger and her companion, a conjurer, a samurai, a brawler, and a melee occultist (me, subbing out of a warlord next chance I get), and that's not mentioning the support cleric. My party is an outlier, but if you have another 2 melee guys in the party besides you (a very real possibility), GL gets a hell of a lot better. Also, being adjacent to an ally and flanking with them as a warlord is very possible, thanks to how tactical flanking was errata'd and Flanking Gambit.
    Yeah,remember the time when tactical flanking granted actual phat bonus instead of easier setting up +2?
    And yes,i imagine GL is also very good if leadership-user brings all followers of level 4 and up with him.
    Around here,it's not especially easy to set up 4-man party.Moreover,as a GM i do dislike large parties because they slow combat down.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph View Post
    Comparing Golden Lion to Broken Blade isn't the best way to prove your argument; everyone knows that BB lives up to its name, and is first up on the nerf block when part 2 of the errata is released. Hell, I've soft-banned it in my games (but in my games we try to play PoW conservatively).
    In my games,Broken Blade straight up doesn't exist,being replaced by Fool's Errand under enormously original name of Kung Fu.
    But i didn't just compared GL to BB,but also to MC.And Riven Hourglass,if memory serves,has this thing called Minute Strike...
    My point is,you can EASILY make two attacks yourself without any silly conditions like you being adjacent to an ally,who must threaten the target AND then spend AoO,which he probably has only one,and then only if he didn't already spent it.
    Last edited by Draacul; 2017-09-09 at 11:44 AM.

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    Dracuul, your complaint seems to be that the leadership and support discipline is bad at solo play. To which I say "...yes?" Lion is a force multiplier.
    If you have no one who can capitalize on it, of course it's awful. That's like playing an Inspire focused bard in a party of save-or-lose casters: no one cares that you gave them +a million to hit and damage, they don't USE those stats.
    If you play it with one guy you're supporting, it's a meh discipline.
    If you play it with 2 guys to support, it can start getting silly. Kill the Wounded is basically +7 damage to every hit an ally can land. Hand that off to a TWF or archery build and they will cash that check for you all day.
    Every martial type (melees especially) past that and it gets consistently more bonkers.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Dracuul, your complaint seems to be that the leadership and support discipline is bad at solo play.
    No,my complaint is that for leadership and support it's not especially good in either,either providing too small benefits,requiring a tricky set-up or both.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    If you have no one who can capitalize on it, of course it's awful.
    It's not awful.It's meh.And this is my problem,because awful i will just forget about and won't use.Here it's kinda useful...in specific conditions...that probably won't see light of day,but if the will(like in the above poster's crazy melee party)it will be awesome.
    Which is the reason for comparison to Coalition Victory.
    "Kill the Wounded is basically +7 damage to every hit an ally can land."
    And -14 to damage of your attack.And -21 to 36 at level 7.And then it gets worse.

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    Another thing to consider is that, while any initiator can get access to any discipline through traits or martial traditions, some people might not want to take that investment (of either one of a character's two traits or three if drawbacks are even allowed or of joining a martial tradition), so comparing Golden Lion, a comparatively common discipline to Riven Hourglass, which I believe the only base class to get it is the Mystic, isn't the most constructive idea. Sometimes people just like helping their party.

    And yes, I remember the pre-errata warlord, those were quite fun using Fate's Favored (a must-have trait for warlords even more now) to reach a +4 bonus from gambits at 1st level. I still play high-charisma warlords, mostly because it's easy to find +cha races, and because halving a bonus your charisma gets you on one ability and removing it from one other isn't worth trashing the score (consider: ability durations, Force of Personality, and of course maneuver DCs)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph View Post
    , which I believe the only base class to get it is the Mystic
    Also Stalker,Dervish Defender and Steelfist Commando.Yes,the latter sucks,but Stalker is common enough and DD is one of the more often-taken dips in my games.
    Also,i don't compare Riven Hourglass to Golden Lion.That would be silly.I compare maneuvers to maneuvers.
    Update:also Harbinger.So two classes just get it and Stalker probably gets it.With six classes total,i say it's common enough.
    Last edited by Draacul; 2017-09-09 at 12:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Entirely possible.Which is why i raised the question,because i suspect that forest in fact exists.

    It LOOKS significant,sure,but it doesn't scale and there are countless abilities that overlap with it.I know about community-minded,i've just never met a person who allowed it in the game.
    Well, you've met me. I allow it, and have had it in multiple games. +2 to attack and damage rolls is equal to or better than a bard's morale bonus until 7th level (slightly earlier with the right equipment, but still) until that point, you're on par with the premiere buffer in core, with less resource expenditure required. And then, if you really want to, you can just trade it out for a higher level maneuver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Will negates,and we ALL know how often Warlord after errata has any kind of charisma.Also you need to attack,which prevents,say,Privateer from laughing the enemy away and AGAIN forcing you to carry out some actions you possibly might not want to.This is all GL is about:conditions.Except Defending the Pride.It just works.
    Requiring a saving throw is par for the course in this game. If you're going to complain about saves, you'll have to throw out entire disciplines, at which point I'd recommend you look at other game systems.

    You're also ignoring that the Privateer's laugh is a full round action, which means that they aren't attacking, and thus aren't contributing in the way that you complain that GL fails to contribute across the board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    This is objectively worse than two attacks against a target which Broken Blade gets or two attacks against different targets at +2 that Mithral Current gets.
    Not really. It's still two attacks. There are "better" and "worse" versions of every single maneuver out there. That's the price you pay for variety and flavor. Hunting Party provides additional attacks, like other maneuvers do. It does it in a way that involves your party members though, which is GL's thing, and seemingly the issue you have with the discipline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    I believe the idea here is that we are,you know,fighting the same enemy.And if we do fight the same enemy,then why we aren't flanking?And if we are flanking,then any maneuvers granting movement to adjacent target suddenly become more problematic.However,1st level maneuvers are numerous,so you can waste a few on things that rarely work.If not for maneuvers readied.
    Let's say we have Fighter, Warlord, Squishy and enemies A, B and C.

    Fighter attacks enemy A, and wounds but does not kill. Enemy B engages Squishy. Warlord, on his turn Tactical Strike to kill A and give Fighter 10 ft. of movement. Fighter uses that 10 ft. of movement to engage Enemy B, positioning himself to block Enemy C from also being able to engage Squishy. Enemy C can only attack Fighter or Warlord. Squishy 5 ft. steps or uses the Withdraw action, and Fighter's threat of Opportunity Attack prevents B from following.

    Fighter's turn rolls around again. Because he doesn't have to use a move action to engage a target, he can full attack. His full attack is enough to ensure a kill on B or C, with Warlord able to finish off the other one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Which would be very nice if we were able to benefit from it in any way!Except we can!There is a flat-footing strike in Mithral Current,and another in Steel Serpent.Which allow you to actually benefit from it,not delay after opponent's action,not forcing your team to delay after your opponent's action and so on.
    Oh,and there is boost in Radiant Dawn on the second level that just flat out flat-foots the target for round AND reduces it's AC with some investment.
    This, I think, is the crux of your issue with Golden Lion. Your thought process is individualized. You don't gain any benefit from flat-footing the opponent, so you consider it worthless. But what you don't consider is that your party gains the benefit. You are triggering abilities for other people, often things they wouldn't be able to do as easily (or at all) without your actions.

    I understand the idea that you can't always rely on your party members, but the game is designed around the assumption that you and your party are working together. Golden Lion is about tactical buffing. The ability to create new opportunities for allies is an increase in party effectiveness. It's interpersonal synergy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    All that sounds nice,but in reality it's just one attack of opportunity from our fighter and one attack at +1d6 from us.IF the fighter is in position.It's basically Hunting Party with +1d6 damage,rarely used tactical ability,but at second level.And second level is the best level in the game!
    Again, we're back to your insisting on a solo-play train of thought. Golden Lion is not going to work unless you have teammates to back you up. Just like Solar Wind isn't going to work if you only wield battle axes, Iron Tortoise only working of you carry a shield, and all the other implicit restrictions of other disciplines.

    You might not find everything in position unless you and your allies are working to make it happen, but that's a lot less difficult than you make it out to be. And if you have a choice between an attack that deals [w]+3d6 and an attack that does 2[w]+1d6, you're probably better off with the 2[w] because of the increased damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Free movement,yes.But not free 5-ft step.At least when you grant a move action it's an actual move that can accomplish all of that.5ft is not very significant.It might be,but probably won't.But it will eat your readied slot in any case.
    Circling the Prey specifically says it's a free 5-ft. step. That's a step out of engagement for your casters, a step into engagement for your melees, a repositioning for your rogue, a line of sight opening for your archers. It can open a lot of avenues for your allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    But by itself it's objectively worse than pretty much any 1st level strike.Which means that you trade your actions for the chance that your allies will do something about it.
    But the problem is deeper.Since that strike does nothing by itself,there is a breakeven point at which it's not practical.Using 3rd level strikes that do nothing but damage as a baseline,this strike requires two successful attacks to break even i.e. do nothing.Three attacks or more means profit in terms of damage.But we only have three more team members!Oh,and this requires target to not die from our attack and two follow-ups from allies.
    There are situations when all of this is easy(archery full attack character in the party),but this is so many conditions i have no words.
    It's not objectively worse than any 1st level strike. There are no 1st level strikes with uncapped damage potential. This appears to be another case of solo-play thinking. Instead of looking at how the strike affects the party as a whole, you're only focusing on how it affects you. Golden Lion doesn't work that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    But you're not a wizard.You can't exchange known maneuvers every day.If you learned a maneuver,you've stuck with it for a long time,if not permanently.
    No, you're not a wizard. And that's OK. You can swap out a maneuver every other level, you can retrain them. You can ready a different set of maneuvers with only 10 minutes of down time. If you find a maneuver doesn't suit your play or party style, you don't have to use it. You will never have enough readied maneuvers that you'll have to use all your known maneuvers, and it's unlikely that you'll have to go through an entire combat using all your maneuvers. You might go an entire combat without getting attacked, does that mean you shouldn't have "wasted" a slot on a counter? No, it means that you didn't need it at that time, but the next time might be different.

    I think I understand your position, and although I don't think I'll be able to alter your way of thinking, I can only hope I've done something to illustrate the difference in philosophy behind Golden Lion's design compared to most other disciplines. It truly is a synergy discipline, and dependent on having the proper party composition, but it is in no way a weak discipline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Well, you've met me. I allow it, and have had it in multiple games. +2 to attack and damage rolls is equal to or better than a bard's morale bonus until 7th level (slightly earlier with the right equipment, but still) until that point, you're on par with the premiere buffer in core, with less resource expenditure required. And then, if you really want to, you can just trade it out for a higher level maneuver.
    But we really can't compare to core.Bard grants competence bonus,but also can easily spare Heroism or two,and these last multiple combats with no action expenditure.
    Zealot grants the same bonus at level 5 without using a swift action or maneuver(recovering them,in fact).Even frikkin Bless overlaps with it.
    Don't get me started with Rajah,which just grants this bonus at level 1 all day long.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Requiring a saving throw is par for the course in this game. If you're going to complain about saves, you'll have to throw out entire disciplines, at which point I'd recommend you look at other game systems.

    You're also ignoring that the Privateer's laugh is a full round action, which means that they aren't attacking, and thus aren't contributing in the way that you complain that GL fails to contribute across the board.
    I'm complaining that it a)requires a save,b)requires you to attack a target and c)payoff is too small.You can just plain daze target at level 1.Or stagger it with no save.
    My primary complaint is that it requires you to attack a target.Swift-action shaken is useful.I remember loving psionic power that did just that.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    You're also ignoring that the Privateer's laugh is a full round action, which means that they aren't attacking, and thus aren't contributing in the way that you complain that GL fails to contribute across the board.
    Objection.Privateer's laugh is straight up +2 AC and +2 to Save DCs for the entire party.No setup is required,just for the enemy to not be zombies.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post

    Not really. It's still two attacks. There are "better" and "worse" versions of every single maneuver out there. That's the price you pay for variety and flavor. Hunting Party provides additional attacks, like other maneuvers do. It does it in a way that involves your party members though, which is GL's thing, and seemingly the issue you have with the discipline.
    No,the issue i have is required jumping through hoops.Couldn't it be just an attack against the target?It HAS to be an attack of opportunity made by ally who is adjacent to us!
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Fighter attacks enemy A, and wounds but does not kill. Enemy B engages Squishy. Warlord, on his turn Tactical Strike to kill A and give Fighter 10 ft. of movement. Fighter uses that 10 ft. of movement to engage Enemy B, positioning himself to block Enemy C from also being able to engage Squishy. Enemy C can only attack Fighter or Warlord. Squishy 5 ft. steps or uses the Withdraw action, and Fighter's threat of Opportunity Attack prevents B from following.
    What if you don't kill enemy A with a strike that does no additional damage?Will two squares of movement with no diagonals allow fighter to accomplish all that?These are all very important questions.
    Again,i see that it MIGHT work.However,it might not.And i claim that most classes can't afford readied maneuvers that are so...situational.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    This, I think, is the crux of your issue with Golden Lion. Your thought process is individualized. You don't gain any benefit from flat-footing the opponent, so you consider it worthless. But what you don't consider is that your party gains the benefit. You are triggering abilities for other people, often things they wouldn't be able to do as easily (or at all) without your actions.
    No,my party only gains the benefit if all of them are delayed after target's turn.And i need to delay after target's turn,too.But,honestly,Distracting Strike's distraction is it's ability to flat-foot.
    It's literally a distraction,because strike itself deals level-appropriate 2d6,so it works in any case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Again, we're back to your insisting on a solo-play train of thought. Golden Lion is not going to work unless you have teammates to back you up. Just like Solar Wind isn't going to work if you only wield battle axes, Iron Tortoise only working of you carry a shield, and all the other implicit restrictions of other disciplines.
    Objection!I can use Intercepting Shade to axe the enemy attacks and Phantom Wind Ray to flatfoot a target against one attack.I do get your point.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post

    Circling the Prey specifically says it's a free 5-ft. step. That's a step out of engagement for your casters, a step into engagement for your melees, a repositioning for your rogue, a line of sight opening for your archers. It can open a lot of avenues for your allies.
    I mean,5ft step is a free movement,but it's too little of free movement to matter constantly.Now maneuvers that grant whole move action,be it to one target,doesn't sound so bad,because you can probably find one person in the party to use said action for something good.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post


    It's not objectively worse than any 1st level strike. There are no 1st level strikes with uncapped damage potential. This appears to be another case of solo-play thinking. Instead of looking at how the strike affects the party as a whole, you're only focusing on how it affects you. Golden Lion doesn't work that way.
    It's worse,because by itself,it's a 3rd level strike that deals no additional damage,when you by yourself can expect +14 at maneuver level 3 and +21 to 36 at level 4.
    So it has break-even point,and it REQUIRES your allies to do stuff to that specific target during that specific timeframe to break even.
    So,let's compare it to real 1st level strike that Kill the Wounded secretly is.Harmony-Shattering strike from Sleeping Goddess.It comes online at level 1,is a melee OR ranged,allows our allies to inflict +1d6 right off the bat(which makes it's break-even point ONE attack,because strikes at level 1 usually do +1d6,if any),is augmentable to both increase the damage so it can inflict +2d6 earlier than Kill the Wounded.
    Yes,it has a save,but you can negate it by spending focus.See,Harmony-Shattering(which i kinda suspect you designed)requires some jumping through hoops too,but it's first-level,scales nicely,gives you one whole power point,and so on!What's not to like?Oh,and it's also first level,which you have aplenty,so you use it at levels 1 and 2,stop using at level 3,use through whole 4 level,and at level 5 when break-even becomes too large you just forget about.Or not,if your party composition is good enough,bit it's first-level maneuver in any case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    No, you're not a wizard. And that's OK. You can swap out a maneuver every other level, you can retrain them. You can ready a different set of maneuvers with only 10 minutes of down time. If you find a maneuver doesn't suit your play or party style, you don't have to use it. You will never have enough readied maneuvers that you'll have to use all your known maneuvers, and it's unlikely that you'll have to go through an entire combat using all your maneuvers. You might go an entire combat without getting attacked, does that mean you shouldn't have "wasted" a slot on a counter? No, it means that you didn't need it at that time, but the next time might be different.
    But i want to be a wizard!
    I think herein lies the problem.Apparently parties exist that can make GL work.But it's not my party,nor it's any of the parties i DM for.
    Ironically,Warlord with it's ton of feats can accomplish readying all known maneuvers.At level ten it requires only four feats,while class itself grants five.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    I can only hope I've done something to illustrate the difference in philosophy behind Golden Lion's design compared to most other disciplines. It truly is a synergy discipline, and dependent on having the proper party composition, but it is in no way a weak discipline.
    I understand your point,but i still think that it's meh.But then,it's outshined mostly by new disciplines,so it's expected power creep.
    Still,it's a point well-made,and i believe that i wasn't the only one reading it,so now we all know.And knowing is half the battle!

  26. - Top - End - #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Also Stalker,Dervish Defender and Steelfist Commando.Yes,the latter sucks,but Stalker is common enough and DD is one of the more often-taken dips in my games.
    Also,i don't compare Riven Hourglass to Golden Lion.That would be silly.I compare maneuvers to maneuvers.
    Update:also Harbinger.So two classes just get it and Stalker probably gets it.With six classes total,i say it's common enough.
    Stalker gets Golden Lion? Really doesn't seem like a Stalker Discipline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Harmony-Shattering(which i kinda suspect you designed)
    I don't know why you think that, given I've been pretty open about what design I did for PoW:E. Specifically, all the stuff in the first post of this thread under "Things I Won't (or Didn't) Review" as well as almost all the Discipline Style Feats and most of the discipline synergy feats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Stalker gets Golden Lion? Really doesn't seem like a Stalker Discipline.
    Stalker gets Riven Hourglass.

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    Oh that makes more sense...though I missed an Errata or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Oh that makes more sense...though I missed an Errata or something.
    Fine print under Old Dog,New Tricks.
    Choice is between Riven Hourglass and Tempest Gale.
    Usually it's the former.

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