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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    I object to high-level casters not being an issue.Moreover,published APs as a rule have enough two-legged,relatively small CMD targets.Even as bosses!First AP has 20-level wizard,second has this...bard,third has cleric and so on.But yes,when you are facing hard targets you are readied maneuver short.Or two.Which is bad,but can sometimes be mitigated by not readying them at all.
    Still,Karzoug's CMD is 39,so not out of reach of that 11-level character.Just really unlikely.
    Anyways my original point is no longer valid,because Sun's Gleam is WAY better delivery system.It comes online at level ONE as opposed to nine,for starters.
    They aren't a problem in terms of CMD target numbers. And if a 20th level wizard doesn't have some way of buffing his CMD significantly via spells, items or other means (whatever they may be) then he's indicative of the design problem, not an example to base your math on. The average CMD is significantly higher than 20 at 20th level.

  2. - Top - End - #332
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    So I was hoping you might be able to clarify something on the mystics animus class feature. In the guide it states that the maximum amount of animus you can have is your class level + your Wis mod. Can you point to me where that is? I have not been able to locate that clause in the path of war expanded book nor on the srd (Granted is most cases I don't see a character reaching that max but on the off chance it does).

    My next quest is about the mystic gaining animus from using a manuever. This one is a little more vague but I was wondering if you had a source for an actual ruling on the per manuever basis. Reading the class description makes it almost seem like it was intended to be only one extra per round regardless of how many total manuevers you used so long as you initiated one. Though this one I do agree could be read either way.

  3. - Top - End - #333
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    And if a 20th level wizard doesn't have some way of buffing his CMD significantly via spells, items or other means (whatever they may be)
    Oh,that's buffed.His naked CMD is,i believe,26.
    CR 21,ladies and gentlemen.Boss of the entire campaign.
    There is,of course,Deskari on the other end of the campaign bosses spectrum.With a low,low CMD of 92.Or 100 vs trip.
    Allevrah had 35 CMD.That thing from Council of Thieves had 33(?).Oh,his pet devil had 45,but you don't have to target pet devil.
    And it's very often like that in APs.Distraction Carnifex next to which is drastically more important,and less defended from combat maneuvers,target.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zetion View Post
    So I was hoping you might be able to clarify something on the mystics animus class feature. In the guide it states that the maximum amount of animus you can have is your class level + your Wis mod. Can you point to me where that is? I have not been able to locate that clause in the path of war expanded book nor on the srd (Granted is most cases I don't see a character reaching that max but on the off chance it does).
    Apparently playtest version of Mystic was very different beast,gaining animus faster but having a hard cap to it.
    I wonder if it had something to do with Blade Meditation.
    Last edited by Draacul; 2017-09-13 at 06:03 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Ah so that's what it was. Thank you for the clarification.

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Published CR11 wizard has CMD of 20.Fighter has 28 or so.
    As Elric said, note that I was talking about published monsters, not NPCs and definitely not those poor nameless ones from the NPC codex and similar. Besides, I believe it would usually be even more difficult for your Str based Vortex-Dustbreeze guy to DT most named NPC full caster villains than average monsters, despite the casters' much lower CMD values.

    (In this context, think the typical problem with full caster villains isn't beating their CMD, it's targeting them in the first place and then getting attacks through layers of defensive spells (like blink, improved invisibility, mirror image, blur etc). In addition, their combat prowess is usually significantly less hampered by the effects of combat maneuvers than the prowess of primarily non-spell using opponents is.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    But then,by now the whole point is moot because Radiant Dawn exists and you can use laser as a delivery system after spending one feat.
    The lessened resource requirements make it a more attractive combo, I agree. But it doesn't improve its effectiveness, meaning it's still limited to a few levels/opponents and thus it still doesn't give enough bang for the buck for most Str builds IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    They don't have to be all or nothing.You see vulnerable target and use them.If you don't-you don't.With minimal investment you can solve SOME encounters.Not all,but some.
    So you're saying you can solve some encounters primarily because you can throw a baseline DT effect at an enemy, meaning you've at best traded one of your standard actions for one of the enemy's move actions? Out of curiosity, how often do such encounters happen in your games, and how many of those are actually challenging to begin with?

    Personally, I don't think I can recall even a single encounter, out of probably at least several hundreds played/GM:ed, where this would've been the case. It seems to me the encounter where this is could actually be the case would have to include so many specific circumstances it would be rare in the extreme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Yes.SoH,for example,has ONE item that provides a bonus to it,and only +5.There is no Elixir of +10 to SoH.There is one for Intimidate.
    Yep. And to further increase the differences, Intimidate probably has more numerous and more substantial permanent boosts than any other skill has, on top of a ton of supporting options for making it a potentially game breaking combat tool even for builds lacking positive Cha mods or related martial maneuvers. And this is of course in addition to the several maneuvers from two disciplines related to Intimidate, and which usually include lower DCs to beat than enemy CMD, and the fact that Intimidate typically also a much more useful skill than SoH also outside of combat.

    But since it appears your games allow most DSP stuff, I recommend using the alternative item rules from Steelforge 1. These effectively remove the arbitrary slot and bonus limit differences between skill boosting items, and also help significantly in cutting down the Christmas tree effect and make tons of otherwise sub-par slotted items viable. This would allow you to for example buy/craft/find an item for any slot which provides a +10 competence bonus to SoH, on top of any other magic effect and without increasing the cost of said bonus (10,000 gp). Highly recommended, from a player as well as a GM perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    But essence is fixed by learning a single Radiant Dawn maneuver.You don't need to spend a feat or anything.
    Radiant Dawn just might become a new king.
    Well, for certain niche builds maybe (like a Cha-SAD warlord/zealot/rajah), and maybe in terms of many builds gaining from having at least one RD maneuver for essence etc. But otherwise I'm not (yet) seeing that it contains enough universally useful maneuvers to have it steal the supposed throne from RH. But I also haven't yet properly read up on RD or play tested it, so I might very well be wrong here.

  6. - Top - End - #336
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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zetion View Post

    My next quest is about the mystic gaining animus from using a manuever. This one is a little more vague but I was wondering if you had a source for an actual ruling on the per manuever basis. Reading the class description makes it almost seem like it was intended to be only one extra per round regardless of how many total manuevers you used so long as you initiated one. Though this one I do agree could be read either way.
    The exact wording is "At the end of any round in which the mystic initiates a maneuver she adds an additional point of animus to her pool." (p. 12 PoW:E)


    So it's not 1 animus per maneuver initiated, it's 1 animus per round a maneuver was initiated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    The lessened resource requirements make it a more attractive combo, I agree. But it doesn't improve its effectiveness, meaning it's still limited to a few levels/opponents and thus it still doesn't give enough bang for the buck for most Str builds IMO.
    Yes,but now it's not coming online at level 9,where viable targets are rarer.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    So you're saying you can solve some encounters primarily because you can throw a baseline DT effect at an enemy, meaning you've at best traded one of your standard actions for one of the enemy's move actions? Out of curiosity, how often do such encounters happen in your games, and how many of those are actually challenging to begin with?
    Or a baseline disarm.It happens more often than a move action granted to ally solving an encounter.Or a five-foot step granted to party.Still,not often.
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    But since it appears your games allow most DSP stuff, I recommend using the alternative item rules from Steelforge 1. These effectively remove the arbitrary slot and bonus limit differences between skill boosting items, and also help significantly in cutting down the Christmas tree effect and make tons of otherwise sub-par slotted items viable.
    To make a very niche option slightly less niche?It's all in the past,anyways.It's simpler to use Decree of Torment and follow-up with strikes that actually do something.
    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Well, for certain niche builds maybe (like a Cha-SAD warlord/zealot/rajah), and maybe in terms of many builds gaining from having at least one RD maneuver for essence etc. But otherwise I'm not (yet) seeing that it contains enough universally useful maneuvers to have it steal the supposed throne from RH. But I also haven't yet properly read up on RD or play tested it, so I might very well be wrong here.
    Well,there is a second-level strike there that obsoletes the entire Tempest Gale.
    Another one flat out flat-foots target for the whole round.As a swift action.Defending the Pride requires standard,flat-foots only till next target action and doesn't have laser delivery system.
    RH has a counter that makes you not surprised(so,in most cases you just waste a maneuver slot(,RD has a counter that actually changes ally's initiative(and gives him a pile of temporary hit points,because why not?).
    RD has frikkin dispel magic at-will.At level four!And with essence investment to actually make it BETTER!Yes,RH has absolute immunity to all conditions,but dispel magic can be used offensively.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Radiant Dawn is over tuned no doubt about that.
    It does everything except damage and since its one stop shopping for everything but damage even a lower maneuver initiator with only 16 can use it for everything but damage and still have room to get enough from a damage heavy discipline . It will go well on everything. That is not even accounting for how unfair built in range damage is, it will put Tempest Gale and Solar Wind out of business or give you a strong support option to pair with them I guess.

    Much like Riven Hourglass it can be slathered on anything. Course, combining them both could be tricky if you want to do damage but that is a more problem for a 16 max initiator then a 21.

    As for specific abilities some are covered above but Sunstroke will be absolutely broken on Maneuvers and scale to absurd levels. It can allow any overtuned single target maneuver to nuke whole waves...for instance I think the synergy with Scarlet Throne would be immaculate since Scarlet Throne focuses on strong and accurate single target moves. Now you can use that to obliterate whole waves from range.
    Last edited by skaddix; 2017-09-14 at 04:30 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    That is not even accounting for how unfair built in range damage is, it will put Tempest Gale and Solar Wind out of business or give you a strong support option to pair with them I guess.
    Unless you are talking about Sunstroke,i object.Sun's Gleam from damage standpoint as opposed to delivery system standpoint,is a really short-range pistol with inferior critical multiplier.That can't be enhanced.
    But since Rajah is still in the playtest,we can petition to move Sunstroke to maneuver level 10 or something.
    But in my opinion,Radiant Dawn feels just about right(barring a few crazy high-level things).As opposed to,again,Golden Lion which FEELS underpowered to me.
    Last edited by Draacul; 2017-09-14 at 06:39 AM.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Perhaps the discussion of Radiant Dawn would be better served in the Radiant Dawn thread? I'm sure the authors would appreciate the feedback and exposure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Perhaps the discussion of Radiant Dawn would be better served in the Radiant Dawn thread? I'm sure the authors would appreciate the feedback and exposure.
    You see,i like Radiant Dawn as it is.Being crazy overpowered in some cases.And if i provide feedback on it's more crazier aspects,author might decide to trim it a bit.
    Like,you know,Harbinger was nerfed into oblivion.Or Cha warlord.
    Thanks,but no thanks.It's easier for me just to ban specific maneuvers if my players decide to go completely bonkers.
    Also,RD is overpowered in all the right ways,providing nice options,as opposed to Broken Blade that just plain boring kills targets with piles of damage.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Lol yeah they took the ax to the Harbinger.

    Put nerfing a discipline isn't the same as gutting a class.

    Its Especially bad for the Harbinger considering the archetypes are also trash.
    They have flavor for sure but not much of a power boost, laterals at best.
    Last edited by skaddix; 2017-09-14 at 10:13 AM.

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Lol yeah they took the ax to the Harbinger.

    Put nerfing a discipline isn't the same as gutting a class.

    Its Especially bad for the Harbinger considering the archetypes are also trash.
    They have flavor for sure but not much of a power boost, laterals at best.
    Archetypes aren't supposed to be power boosts. They are supposed to be a lateral trade, or as close as you can get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Lol yeah they took the ax to the Harbinger.

    Put nerfing a discipline isn't the same as gutting a class.

    Its Especially bad for the Harbinger considering the archetypes are also trash.
    They have flavor for sure but not much of a power boost, laterals at best.
    I really,REALLY like Crimson Countess for some reason.
    In published adventures,these relatively small amounts of damage suddenly start to pile up real fast and kill or maim targets quite nicely.1d4+2 to three targets at level 1 with no save,attack roll or anything is quite respectable.
    2d4+12 at level 6 is quite good,too.3d4+20 at level 10 is meh,but has it's uses.
    Moreover,CC has ENORMOUS morale bonuses to attack/damage against pretty much every target she wants(as opposed to half the untyped bonuses to one discipline).And is pretty much unkillable by HP damage.
    Yes,you don't get to ready ALL THE MANEUVERS on level 20,but who even cares about level 20?
    Last edited by Draacul; 2017-09-14 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Like,you know,Harbinger was nerfed into oblivion.Or Cha warlord.
    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    Lol yeah they took the ax to the Harbinger.
    Did they nerf Harbinger recently or something? I know that there were a fair number of nerfs between the playtest and the published one, but was there something other than that?

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromuthra View Post
    Did they nerf Harbinger recently or something? I know that there were a fair number of nerfs between the playtest and the published one, but was there something other than that?
    Harbinger went from "arguably more INT SAD than the wizard" to "Gets significant bonuses from INT, but still needing other stars to function."


    It wasn't nerfed into Oblivion so much as normalized with the overall design goals of PoW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    "Gets significant bonuses from INT
    These significant bonuses are +2 TYPED bonus to attack for the most of your career assuming 18 Int.It's barely worth writing on the character sheet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dromuthra View Post
    Did they nerf Harbinger recently or something? I know that there were a fair number of nerfs between the playtest and the published one, but was there something other than that?
    I don't know if it was recent. I was looking at mystic stuff on d20, checked harbinger and noticed wow its been nerfed.

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    So you're saying you can solve some encounters primarily because you can throw a baseline DT effect at an enemy, meaning you've at best traded one of your standard actions for one of the enemy's move actions? Out of curiosity, how often do such encounters happen in your games, and how many of those are actually challenging to begin with?
    Or a baseline disarm.It happens more often than a move action granted to ally solving an encounter.Or a five-foot step granted to party.Still,not often.
    First, I think you've missed the most important point here. It doesn't really matter whether it solves an encounter more often than granting an ally a move, it's still sub-par. Because there are an abundance of options which ultimately result in stealing a move action from enemies, many of them having far better synergy and action economy than a ranged DT on a Str build. (Consider for example a basic trip with reach, which doesn't require a standard action (strike or otherwise) and also grants AoOs if the target tries to stand up.)

    In conclusion, the ranged DT specifically was by no means the primary fantastic thing that could turn the encounter into a cake-walk. It was just one of very many options which could've achieved a similar result, many of which probably would've required less investments and/or provided far better synergy for a Str melee build. Stealing move actions is easy, especially during low/mid levels. But how many swift action 1st level abilities or 3rd level standard action buffed attacks can grant an ally a move action? So even should we assume such abilities don't solve encounters as often as stealing enemy move actions do, when they do there sure are far fewer substitutes, if any. I think the same is BTW true also when the ability in question didn't solve the encounter but was just plain effective.

    Second, it seems we have different criteria for what makes us consider a specific ability/action use/combo "solved an encounter". To me, stuff like flight, sleep, greater mass invisibility, solid fog and cloudkill can often qualify, as can very high peak damage output, Dirty Trick Master with Seize the Opportunity, Cornugon Smash with Soulless Gaze, and similar reliable one-shot abilities. But stuff enabling you to steal a move or granting one would very rarely do so, since those are much more dependent on other arguably at least equally significant circumstances/abilities in order to have much effect on the outcome of an encounter. (Note that this doesn't mean they cannot be great.) What are your criteria?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    To make a very niche option slightly less niche?
    Well, that and to make tons of niche options slightly to considerably less niche. (The recommendation was supposed to be general, but I see now that using the particular SoH case as an example and my wording made it appear less so.)

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    These significant bonuses are +2 TYPED bonus to attack for the most of your career assuming 18 Int.It's barely worth writing on the character sheet.
    So you also consider it barely worth writing down a barb's rage effects on hit chances?

    +2 insight (not a very common attack bonus type) is far from "barely worth writing on the sheet" IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draacul View Post
    TYPED
    And only now did I notice that Accursed Will and Dark Focus have the same bonus type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyaa View Post
    And only now did I notice that Accursed Will and Dark Focus have the same bonus type
    What? Accursed Will gives insight bonuses, Dark Focus untyped ones. The only thing they (partially) share is the combat values they boost.

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Huh, looks like my pdf was really outdated, my bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    So you also consider it barely worth writing down a barb's rage effects on hit chances?

    +2 insight (not a very common attack bonus type) is far from "barely worth writing on the sheet" IMO.
    Barbarian's rage grants a ton of benefits beginning from the start and has the whole class revolving around it.Accursed will is mostly just +2 insight bonus for 18 int(which pretty much guarantees you being bad in primary attack stat)or +1 insight bonus otherwise.And it doesn't frikkin stack with Scarlet Throne,the ONLY school that has +insight boosts.
    In short,it's a weapon focus.A single feat.And this is ONLY specific class ability Harbinger has that uses Int in any meaningful way apart from maximum Claimed targets.
    It really should've been the central ability of the class LIKE IT WAS.Instead it's Dark Focus.Congratulations,you're a full BAB combatant as long as you use a single discipline in a class that has five,none of them good enough to carry the class on it's own.

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    I think I overuse Scarlet Throne, I just like the flavor even though its not the best damage discipline.

    But yeah what made Harbinger good was being SAD and now its really not.

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    What class would be best for using a Kusarigama?

    I'm thinking Steelfist Commando Warlord, but I can't see much that the Kusarigama offers uniquely besides being a discipline weapon for a ton of disciplines.

    Also, how the hell do Kusarigama work? Are both ends reach (in reality the Kama shouldn't be, but the weight could be), which ends have the trip property, etc.?
    DMs only roll dice for the sound they make

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Warlord or Zealot probably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaddix View Post
    I think I overuse Scarlet Throne, I just like the flavor even though its not the best damage discipline.

    But yeah what made Harbinger good was being SAD and now its really not.
    Do try the Rajah.It's good.REAL good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wartex1 View Post
    What class would be best for using a Kusarigama?

    I'm thinking Steelfist Commando Warlord, but I can't see much that the Kusarigama offers uniquely besides being a discipline weapon for a ton of disciplines.

    Also, how the hell do Kusarigama work? Are both ends reach (in reality the Kama shouldn't be, but the weight could be), which ends have the trip property, etc.?
    Kama is off-hand, it doesn't have reach,it has trip property,while ball has grapple property and reach.
    At least according to weapon description.
    I second the Zealot.The only thing better than reach is more reach.Possibly with a single-level-dip into Dervish Defender because awesome.And because more reach is more.
    Last edited by Draacul; 2017-09-14 at 10:18 PM.

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    Major updates to the mystic guide. Added more feats, cleaned up outdated information, propagated Sayt's Tempest Gale review to all documents, and tried to fix anything else I noticed that was wrong.

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    Default Re: All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

    I appreciate the update! Since you cover Sleeping Goddess and its style, I'm surprised you didn't mention Awakened Animus, though.

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