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[Elricaltovilla]

I object to Crimson Countess's Sanguine Empowerment rating.
It's literally the only thing that makes Harbinger tolerable.These so-called"scaling bonuses to attack and damage"are better than anything you'll ever get from Int,setting up it as easy as being within close range from targets,so-called"minor HP gain"is in most circumstances Fast Healing 20 starting from level 1 and i can go on if needed.

I think you need to reread the crimson countess's vitae rules again. To whit:

At 2nd level, a crimson countess develops the ability to gain and store Vitae. The crimson countess gains 1 point of Vitae whenever she Claims a creature. At the beginning of each of her turns, she gains Vitae points equal to the number of creatures she has Claimed. The maximum amount of Vitae a crimson countess may have stored is equal to her class level. A crimson countess’ Vitae pool resets to 0 after she has spent 1 minute out of combat.

She gains no vitae until 2nd level, and so can't gain anything from it at 1st level. She is limited to maximum vitae equal to her class level, so an 18 INT harbinger will have a similar bonus to attack rolls at 2nd level. It takes a minimum of 2 rounds of combat for her to get more than the bonus a regular harbinger has natively, which means that in any competent party she is unlikely to get to enjoy her bonuses for very long as most encounters are over by the third round. You'll also note that each of the vitae abilities is level locked, in addition to being vitae locked, so no, she can't do most of those things, or even any of them, at first level.

Sanguine Empowerment requires the battle to drag on, and that can be a rare thing. Especially in a PoW game.

[Draacul]

I think you need to reread the crimson countess's vitae rules again.

Agreed.Replace all mentionings of level one with level two.
"

so an 18 INT harbinger will have a similar bonus to attack rolls at 2nd level

No,because a 3 INT harbinger still has +1 to attack rolls,but CC has at least +2 morale to attack and damage over and above it.

It takes a minimum of 2 rounds of combat for her to get more than the bonus a regular harbinger has natively

One swift action:claim three targets.You now have 2 bp in your pool and enjoy +3 morale bonus on attack and damage against any of these targets.And don't even tell me you don't get at least two targets,because if you don't-you win by default because action economy.

You'll also note that each of the vitae abilities is level locked

Please.The only one that really matters is Drain.And it comes online immediately.I mean,Sacrifice isn't half bad,but Drain is just better.

[Elricaltovilla]

Agreed.Replace all mentionings of level one with level two.
"
No,because a 3 INT harbinger still has +1 to attack rolls,but CC has at least +2 morale to attack and damage over and above it.

One swift action:claim three targets.You now have 2 bp in your pool and enjoy +3 morale bonus on attack and damage against any of these targets.And don't even tell me you don't get at least two targets,because if you don't-you win by default because action economy.

Please.The only one that really matters is Drain.And it comes online immediately.I mean,Sacrifice isn't half bad,but Drain is just better.

18 INT is a modifier of 4, not 3, and a +2 bonus. That modifier is also an insight bonus, which will stack with the much more common morale bonus provided by many other classes. The Crimson Countess's bonus will not stack with morale bonuses, meaning that they lose out on class support from their teammates that the normal harbinger still benefits from.

That swift action requires a feat. Feats are a precious commodity for harbingers, as they have no bonus feats at all. Assuming that you are playing a DEX harbinger, you need two feats for Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility, which should be your priority so that your attack rolls don't suffer and you can actually land your attacks. So unless you have three feats by 2nd level, you're at least delayed until third before you can claim 3 targets with one swift action.

The move action cost of Drain is a notable penalty to a class as mobile and close ranged in design as the harbinger is. The loss of mobility has to be accounted for in its rating.

I think you've demonstrated repeatedly that a lot of your assumptions about class play are based on things that are specific to your games. You've acknowledged this before, however, you continue to disparage the experiences of others' play, despite your own being equally anecdotal. I'm glad that you enjoy the material, but these guides cover a broader scope than your specific games, and the game as a whole encompasses styles of play, party compositions and player strategies can vary wildly. These guides attempt to cover the widest possible sampling of games, and won't always conform to your expectations or play experiences.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The system itself doesn't support switching weapons on the fly due to the individualization of feats, weapon special abilities and class abilities. And mundane items are sorely lacking compared to magical items, they'd need their own entire book worth of support to even start to approach the utility of magic items.

If you want to switch "weapons" on the fly, the Soulknife does that pretty well, and can get really modular with it's stuff if you multiclass with aegis.

The Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability from 3.5 didn't exactly allow switching weapons mid-combat, but being able to change what weapon you've selected for those feats and class abilities with an hour of prep is pretty close.

Maybe (for this hypothetical crafting initiator) make it a martial alchemy class? Alchemical items have more potential for power and utility than mundane, so it could work

[Draacul]

18 INT is a modifier of 4, not 3, and a +2 bonus.

My point is,18-int Harbinger has exactly one point of attack bonus over a 3-int one.

The Crimson Countess's bonus will not stack with morale bonuses, meaning that they lose out on class support from their teammates that the normal harbinger still benefits from.

MIGHT lose on class support.Not in case of Bard,for example.

That swift action requires a feat.

No,because Malevolence and Grasp of Darkness are feat tax for Harbinger anyways.For Crimson Countess,so is Dark Allure.Probably so is Weaken the Prey.

Assuming that you are playing a DEX harbinger

Why would you play Dex Harbinger when you have two to three feats in feat tax alone AND fast healing 20 when you need it AND you have better attack(and damage) bonus than a baseline harbinger?

The move action cost of Drain is a notable penalty to a class as mobile and close ranged in design as the harbinger is.

Crimson Countess changes that base assumption.

[Elricaltovilla]

Just a reminder that there's a great many things from PoW:E that I wrote for the book and would greatly prefer to have other people write the guides for. Please take a look at the first post in this thread to see what desperately needs love and attention!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Based on what I have played, the only class I'm qualified to write a guide for is the Warlord. It's by far my favorite PoW class, and the only one I've actually had a chance to play in a real game. If it actually gets officially published soon, the Rajah might also join the warlord in that regard.

[skaddix]

And that has little to do with the discussion at hand. You stated the Harbinger archetypes were a side grade, not an upgrade. I stated that was the design goal with archetypes, which makes the Harbinger archetypes an example of successful theory, not something to be looked down on. That other archetypes succeed or fail at this goal to varying degrees has no bearing on the issue at hand.

Well sure but my point was more all you needed was flavor because base Harbinger use to be so strong. So it felt that the archetypes available were balanced with that fact in mind. Now that the Harbinger has been nerfed its more noticeable.

[Elricaltovilla]

Based on what I have played, the only class I'm qualified to write a guide for is the Warlord. It's by far my favorite PoW class, and the only one I've actually had a chance to play in a real game. If it actually gets officially published soon, the Rajah might also join the warlord in that regard.

I had never played a game with the warlord when I first wrote the guide for it. Same for stalker and warder. If you've got a good head, you can usually get about 80% of the way there. Then it's just a matter of waiting for internet strangers to tell you that you're wrong about the other 20%.

[phlidwsn]

FYI, for the Mystic Guide it still has Elements As One under Feats, which became Elemental Flux Style instead.

[Elricaltovilla]

FYI, for the Mystic Guide it still has Elements As One under Feats, which became Elemental Flux Style instead.

I'll fix it if you do a Brutal Slayer guide






I'll get it done when I get home from work.

[phlidwsn]

I'll fix it if you do a Brutal Slayer guide

Had not looked at that one before, that looks very tasty for a half-giant 2H crit build. This'll be backup character build #6 for my current campaign.

[Elricaltovilla]

Had not looked at that one before, that looks very tasty for a half-giant 2H crit build. This'll be backup character build #6 for my current campaign.

I built it for a friend who was a metal head and wanted a strength based stalker. It turned out so good we just stuck it in PoW:E. It's a nasty, fun archetype with some great flavor, I think.

But seriously, anything you can do to help (if you want) finish out the archetypes and other things I wrote for PoW:E would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Elements As One has been removed.

[Eox]

I'd like to submit Huntmaster for the Harbinger guide. Ordinarily the feat is fairly unimpressive, but an extra level on your Dark Messenger can certainly be worth the slot.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'd like to submit Huntmaster for the Harbinger guide. Ordinarily the feat is fairly unimpressive, but an extra level on your Dark Messenger can certainly be worth the slot.

If it allows you to exceed the level cap on your animal companion, then yeah it's pretty amazing. Otherwise, it really only works for a multi-classing ravenlord. I'll have to check on that.

[Dromuthra]

Hey, so I'm thinking about putting together an archer build using PoW. What's the most effective way? Obviously I'll want to get Solar Wind and Tempest Gale, but which base class do people recommend?

[Wartex1]

I recommend Warlord, but most anything works.

[Elricaltovilla]

Hey, so I'm thinking about putting together an archer build using PoW. What's the most effective way? Obviously I'll want to get Solar Wind and Tempest Gale, but which base class do people recommend?

Any of the three full BAB initiators will do a fine job. Base Warlord is closest to a traditional archer, Hawkguard Warder likes to BFC a bit with their bow and Zealots love using standard action strikes at range.

Look at picking up a third discipline with a smattering of ranged maneuvers like steel serpent or silver crane. And if you do like silver crane, consider the Phoenix Champion prestige class. It's the archery prestige class from PoW:E.

[Wartex1]

Wait, I just thought of a better fit for a new INT class.

There isn't a proper PoW skillmonkey class, is there? A 3/4 BAB skill-focused Int-based initiator would fit right in. In my head the concept comes as a PoW version of 3.5's Factotum.

[exelsisxax]

Hey, so I'm thinking about putting together an archer build using PoW. What's the most effective way? Obviously I'll want to get Solar Wind and Tempest Gale, but which base class do people recommend?

The first reply is relatively accurate: almost anything works. In addition to the above poster's options, you could just roll a mystic with a trade-in for tempest gale. You'd have both ranged disciplines and elemental flux, which is almost exclusively "ranged or melee" strikes, and mystic animus can boost all of their disciplines. You'd be able to cherry-pick the absolutely best ranged options at every level.

Stalkers have native access to both ranged disciplines, can force deadly strikes to trigger on targets, expand crit ranges, and can eventually dual strike to wipe the area.

The only base class that doesn't seem to support archers is harbinger. No native ranged disciplines and the class features don't really support it much. But you can still make it work like you could any 1pp martial, especially if the party has an optimization level of "cleric that prepped cures and wizard with true strike".

[Wartex1]

Oh yeah, Mystic is also pretty good ranged, but I prefer using it as a switch-hitter with a Starknife to melee and throw with.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Wait, I just thought of a better fit for a new INT class.

There isn't a proper PoW skillmonkey class, is there? A 3/4 BAB skill-focused Int-based initiator would fit right in. In my head the concept comes as a PoW version of 3.5's Factotum.

I was actually thinking about the subject yesterday. It was more 'this would be a cool discipline', which led to 'this should have a parent class like how Radiant Dawn has the Rajah'. I thought up a divine-ish class (in the same way that the mystic is arcane-ish) that invokes different deities from a pantheon as is necessary. Intelligence felt right for somebody who, rather than live by faith, prefers to exploit the providence of gods.

As for the archer question, I'd recommend warlord, since they also get tempest gale/solar wind by default, and Pinhole Gambit is still great. Also, full BAB for feats, as well as opening up team support. There are some nice ranged teamwork feats. I like Suppressive Fire, something that halflings qualify for (since you need the keen senses racial ability).

[Wartex1]

That would also work. Kinda reminds me of the Living Grimoire Inquisitor (one of my favorite archetyped classes in all of PF), which turns the Inquisitor from a Wisdom based caster to an Intelligence one and gets a book to smack people with along with divine scholar related abilities. I especially love mixing it with some of the nice favored class bonuses to pump up some skills super high (I'm especially a fan of Tiefling with the Monstrous Mask feat since I can pump Intimidate up to absurd levels).

And yeah, we don't have a proper Divine-flavored initiator. We have a Psionic one, an Arcane one, a "Shadow Magic" one, and a Veilweaving one. I mean, one could always just play an archetyped Paladin, but that's less cool.

[Elricaltovilla]

Wait, I just thought of a better fit for a new INT class.

There isn't a proper PoW skillmonkey class, is there? A 3/4 BAB skill-focused Int-based initiator would fit right in. In my head the concept comes as a PoW version of 3.5's Factotum.

Both Hidden Blade Rogue and Polymath Investigator handle that niche quite well.

EDIT: For divine flavor you have the Ordained Defender Warder, Angel of Mercy Medic, and Warpath Follower Class Template on top of the Knight Disciple Paladin.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That would also work. Kinda reminds me of the Living Grimoire Inquisitor (one of my favorite archetyped classes in all of PF), which turns the Inquisitor from a Wisdom based caster to an Intelligence one and gets a book to smack people with along with divine scholar related abilities. I especially love mixing it with some of the nice favored class bonuses to pump up some skills super high (I'm especially a fan of Tiefling with the Monstrous Mask feat since I can pump Intimidate up to absurd levels).

And yeah, we don't have a proper Divine-flavored initiator. We have a Psionic one, an Arcane one, a "Shadow Magic" one, and a Veilweaving one. I mean, one could always just play an archetyped Paladin, but that's less cool.

Both Hidden Blade Rogue and Polymath Investigator handle that niche quite well.

EDIT: For divine flavor you have the Ordained Defender Warder, Angel of Mercy Medic, and Warpath Follower Class Template on top of the Knight Disciple Paladin.

What I had in mind was more... Occultist-like. Not like the reliquarian archetype, which straight-up gives you divine casting, but something that gives a new way in which a character can gain power from deities, like how the occultist gets spells from a wholly unique source. Probably too much Kill 6 Billion Demons planted this idea, I'll keep sitting on it.

[Wartex1]

What I had in mind was more... Occultist-like. Not like the reliquarian archetype, which straight-up gives you divine casting, but something that gives a new way in which a character can gain power from deities, like how the occultist gets spells from a wholly unique source. Probably too much Kill 6 Billion Demons planted this idea, I'll keep sitting on it.

I could definitely see an archetype of this theoretical class being the flavor equivalent of an Ur-Priest (while the base version borrows power like a Binder, this version steals it).

EDIT: Either way, the idea of a scholarly warrior-priest is definitely to my liking. 3/4 BAB, Full maneuver progression, light or medium armor, the ability to use a scroll or book as a weapon (mainly for rule of cool), and heavy mechanical options with divine flavor functioning maybe something like a Mystic's Glyphs but more of a utilitarian thing rather than a buff/debuff thing?

[Elricaltovilla]

I could definitely see an archetype of this theoretical class being the flavor equivalent of an Ur-Priest (while the base version borrows power like a Binder, this version steals it).

EDIT: Either way, the idea of a scholarly warrior-priest is definitely to my liking. 3/4 BAB, Full maneuver progression, light or medium armor, the ability to use a scroll or book as a weapon (mainly for rule of cool), and heavy mechanical options with divine flavor functioning maybe something like a Mystic's Glyphs but more of a utilitarian thing rather than a buff/debuff thing?

If you think you know what you want, then I encourage you to write it up and take it to the homebrew forums here. You're unlikely to find a better resource for fleshing out and improving your ideas than that forum. I also recommend getting a thesaurus, we're quickly running out of unique names for classes, abilities, skills and the like.

[Wartex1]

I've already brewed something for Path of War, namely an improvised weapon and splash weapon focused discipline that gets most of it's names from common revolutionary phrases and working tools.

[Draacul]

Hey, so I'm thinking about putting together an archer build using PoW. What's the most effective way? Obviously I'll want to get Solar Wind and Tempest Gale, but which base class do people recommend?

Mystic,almost invariably.
You see,as discussion around here revealed,Tempest Gale has one small little problem.It's reliant on Sleight of Hand,AND NOTHING IN THE GAME BOOSTS IT!
Seriously,there is one item that boosts it by +5.Mystic,while being 3/4 attack bonus class has the ability to augment his maneuvers,and the most basic augmentation is +2 insight bonus to d20 rolls.
Including Sleight of Hand(and also attack rolls,but who cares?)
That's +4 at level 4 and +6 at level 9.This alone is why Mystic is head and shoulders above the competition,unless you like full attacking for some reason.
And i'm pretty sure that Mystic has other class abilities.
Moreover,Mystic is one of very few ways to build a gunslinger that you can play without swearing a lot.Unlimited ammo,ability to hit opponents in the face with a stock,increased range,fix misfire...

[Elricaltovilla]

Mystic,almost invariably.
You see,as discussion around here revealed,Tempest Gale has one small little problem.It's reliant on Sleight of Hand,AND NOTHING IN THE GAME BOOSTS IT!
Seriously,there is one item that boosts it by +5.Mystic,while being 3/4 attack bonus class has the ability to augment his maneuvers,and the most basic augmentation is +2 insight bonus to d20 rolls.
Including Sleight of Hand(and also attack rolls,but who cares?)
That's +4 at level 4 and +6 at level 9.This alone is why Mystic is head and shoulders above the competition,unless you like full attacking for some reason.
And i'm pretty sure that Mystic has other class abilities.
Moreover,Mystic is one of very few ways to build a gunslinger that you can play without swearing a lot.Unlimited ammo,ability to hit opponents in the face with a stock,increased range,fix misfire...

Psionic Shards can give up to a +10 bonus to any one skill for a mere 1000 gp. They're temporary though, and have a short duration. If you combine it with a synaptic mask, the shard's bonus becomes permanent as long as the mask is worn and the shard is not removed from the mask.

Crystal Masks are more expensive, but more permanent and offer a similar +10 bonus. They don't have a specific one for Sleight of Hand though a custom one isn't unreasonable.

Similarly Meld Stones offer slightly lower bonuses but spread them around to additional skills. No specific choice for Sleight of Hand, but again, custom ones aren't unreasonable.

I'll grant that none of these are particularly ideal, but at the very least the shard + synaptic mask combo is completely legit.

On the topic of mystic, I'm reluctant to recommend it to anyone unless they are an experienced player. Mystic is a very busy class, there is a lot to keep track of and it can overwhelm people who aren't familiar with the game or have excellent memory.