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[xt828]

I'm not sure if I'm calculating this correctly, but if I take a Zweihander Warder Duergar with an Impact Fauchard and Primal Warrior Stance, at 6th level I can be hitting for 5d8+bonus damage? That's d10 base -> 2d8 impact -> 3d8 enlarge person -> 5d8 primal warrior stance. Seems rather good for that level.

[Vhaidara]

I'm not sure if I'm calculating this correctly, but if I take a Zweihander Warder Duergar with an Impact Fauchard and Primal Warrior Stance, at 6th level I can be hitting for 5d8+bonus damage? That's d10 base -> 2d8 impact -> 3d8 enlarge person -> 5d8 primal warrior stance. Seems rather good for that level.

Well, that is a fair bit of investment. Also, since Impact is a +2 enhancement, you would need a +1 Impact Fauchard. Which costs 18000gp. Which, since you aren't supposed to have anything costing more than 1/2 WBL, means level 9.

[Sayt]

Don't toy with me; this is really going to happen...?

Cautiously optimistic,
Ghorrin Redblade

It's almost in a state to post, matter of fact.

[xt828]

Well, that is a fair bit of investment. Also, since Impact is a +2 enhancement, you would need a +1 Impact Fauchard. Which costs 18000gp. Which, since you aren't supposed to have anything costing more than 1/2 WBL, means level 9.

Ah, our GM hasn't been enforcing the 1/2 WBL. Even without that, though, you're looking at 4d8 base at 6th level, and you can trade out Duergar for a party member able to cast enlarge person - which is a fairly standard buff spell.

[GhorrinRedblade]

It's almost in a state to post, matter of fact.

Oooh, that's zesty news. I look forward to reading it. You gonna drop word here when it's ready?

[deuxhero]

Eternal Guardian's Unberable Gaze is activated when you are targeted. Can't you can use it against a spellcaster and force them to roll concentration?

[Nyaa]

On Grim News: Harbinger can get Stance of the Ether Gate at level 5, almost the same thing as Omenwalk - doesn't let you teleport through doors (which you could do at level 5 with Ghostwalk anyway), but doesn't provoke for disengaging with it. IIRC Harbinger can't get flight from its disciplines, unless he takes Black Seraph tradition. Therefore, it would make sense to take Dark Wings first.

[CGNefarious]

Would you generally suggest only focusing on two disciplines in a build? I was trying to build a Harbinger with Cursed Razor, Shattered Mirror, and Veiled Moon and I was having trouble meeting the prereqs. Is that standard among the classes or a consequence of the Harbinger's fewer maneuvers known?

[Feint's End]

@Zealot:

As I've mentioned in the other thread I think that the recovery method of the zealot is way too limited as it is now. Yes standard action recovery is nice IF you have an ally around. However being the only class dependant on having an ally around kind of sucks.

-Rating of Unleash the Godess: Counting as being psionically focused doesn't let you expend focus as much as you want. You still have to regain your original focus. I do however see that it could be interpreted otherwise so I'll ask for clarification.

[stack]

Would you generally suggest only focusing on two disciplines in a build? I was trying to build a Harbinger with Cursed Razor, Shattered Mirror, and Veiled Moon and I was having trouble meeting the prereqs. Is that standard among the classes or a consequence of the Harbinger's fewer maneuvers known?

I find, and believe others will agree, that outside of level 1 maneuvers it is best to focus on not more than two disciplines unless you spend feats to improve your number known. Not to say you can't try to cherry pick some here and there from a third, but it isn't easy. There are many tempting maneuvers, so it can be hard to narrow your focus.

[Nyaa]

And if you take Advanced Study you better be ready to spend another feat or two on Extra Readied Maneuver to be able to actually use these maneuvers.
I hope PoW:Ex will fix these issues with favored class bonuses.

[CGNefarious]

I would absolutely love a FCB similar to the human sorcerer one. But I don't see that happening. Even something like +1/2 maneuvers known would be awesome.

[Nyaa]

Some races from Bloodforge have FCB of +1/4 maneuver known.

[137beth]

Why are the Golden Lion maneuvers not rated in the warlord guide
They are in the general guide with all the maneuvers, but not in warlord despite being available to warlords. I'm guessing this is just a copy/paste error.

[Elricaltovilla]

A recent update to the Mystic has caused me a bit of a conundrum. The Mystic has traded Broken Blade for Mithral Current, which is both awesome and a little bit troublesome for me.

I enjoy writing up these guides for you all to use, and want to bring you the best possible guide I can, to that end I decided I won't be writing guides for any of the POW material I wrote for Dreamscarred Press. And that's the conundrum. I need a guide for Mithral Current for my Mystic Guide, but I won't write it myself in order to remain unbiased. So, I'm recruiting someone to help me with the Mystic Guide and in lieu of offering payment (because I'm poor), I'll share credit with you for the guide and give you a baker's dozen internet cookies for the trouble.

So who wants to help me write a mystic guide?

[Vhaidara]

You know, I wasn't going to, and then I realized this is basically what I've done with Flux and Grave. I'll take a shot at it. Probably tomorrow or later tonight though. Got things coming up this afternoon.

[Nyaa]

Not that I want you to stop having fun, but maybe it's worth waiting until Mystic is published? It seems to be in active development.

[Elricaltovilla]

Not that I want you to stop having fun, but maybe it's worth waiting until Mystic is published? It seems to be in active development.

I'm not writing the guide just yet. ErrantX will let me know when its done enough that I can put something out there, but Mithral Current is all but ready for printing (as are all three class templates) so it really doesn't hurt anything to get a head start on this. I usually write up a template for the class before I get started anyway.

[Vhaidara]

Writing now, on level 3, will post when finished. And also, you probably want to have your general disciplines guide finished out. I can work on Piecing Thunder tomorrow, if you want.

[Elricaltovilla]

Writing now, on level 3, will post when finished. And also, you probably want to have your general disciplines guide finished out. I can work on Piecing Thunder tomorrow, if you want.

That was my next thing. While I have down time before writing the mystic guide I was going to try and get a list of stuff that needs fixed/updated for my guides. I'm quite certain there's a lot of it.

[Dgrin]

You know, I'd try to do at least Mithral Current too. I will do that today or tomorrow. I don't really have time for all the disciplines but other opinion may be useful

[Elricaltovilla]

You know, I'd try to do at least Mithral Current too. I will do that today or tomorrow. I don't really have time for all the disciplines but other opinion may be useful

I'm always willing to accept help with this project. Cuz its a massive pain in my butt

[Vhaidara]

Finished faster than expected. Will be leaving now.

Spoiler: Mithral Current Review

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Spoiler: Level 1

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Swift Current****: Strike for +1d6 is fairly standard at this level. However, the draw bonus is very nice in combination with the right class features and stances (Body of the Night springs to mind), which helps it age quite well.

Tidal Blade****: Comparing this to other maneuvers, it does the same thing as Scything Blade from Scarlet Throne: Hit 2 dudes. But, if you draw your weapon, you get a bonus to hit. So potentially better.

Flowing Creek*****: Okay, for perspective, most skill check AC replacers are level 2. and this lets you take a 5ft step if they miss. Fun times.

Following Wake***: So, spend your swift and attach a trip (using Perform (Dance)) to you next attack. Definitely not something to brush off lightly if you are focusing more on control than damage

Ready the Draw*****: This makes the discipline work at low levels before you have the feats to draw/sheathe normally. The extra Combat Reflexes is a bit odd for Warders (does it stack with Defensive Focus?), but this stance is still pretty much mandatory if you want to use on draw effects at low levels.

Reaching Blade Stance****: Damage and reach. Sadly, the damage ages once you can full attack, but more Reach will never be a bad thing (especially since you threaten all of it)

Spoiler: Level 2

Show

Dual Crash***: +2d6 damage isn't bad. However, +2d6 damage and two hits before activating a Boost is wonderful. [Question for Elric: does the bonus damage apply to both hits? If so, move up a rank]

Iron Wave***: Again, +2d6 damage isn't bad, and the draw effect here isn't nearly as strong as with Dual Crash. However, it is a lot more awesome to visualize.

Calm the Storm*****: Okay, when you get it, this lets you hit someone in retaliation. However, this might be the best scaling counter in PoW. The higher level you get, the more attacks your opponent has. Therefore, the more it will hurt them to lose them. And big things, especially ones that work with class levels, tend to have lower Reflex saves. I can genuinely see myself readying this at 20

Ride the Wake**: I almost gave this a one star, but I can see it having uses. It's a primarily defensive boost that doesn't protect you from AoO.

Riptide Strike***: Standard fare for these strike. +2d6 damage, and trip with +2 as a rider. Passable maneuver.

Spoiler: Level 3

Show

Salt Breeze Strike**: Decent damage, but the draw rider isn't fantastic [Note to Elric: Maybe save or blind for a round? would up to blue]

Flowing Water Stance**: Defensive bonuses. The initiative is nice, but I would switch out of this as soon as that wasn't needed. The big problem is that, while you can sheathe your weapon as a free action, without Mithral Current Style, this is completely useless. Kick this up to Blue**** with MC Style, since that is the truly glaring problem.

Rippling Current****: Swift Current's older brother. Again, great because of how many things work only against flat footed targets. If you aren't using anything like that, this drops to Orange**

Rushing Wake***: Now, let me clarify something: This is Purple***** for control builds. If you want damage, don't look here, but if you have a focus on tripping and have a reach weapon (thinking Zweihander Sentinel with Reaching Blade Stance), this can trip ARMIES. Even funnier if you can get flight and charge over them, sweeping their legs out as you go.

Spoiler: Level 4

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Silver Wave****: So, that's a jump. Previously, your best strikes were dealing 3d6. Now we have 6d6, and if you draw you get range (and you get to look awesome)

Disruptive Wave***: Caster's don't always need to target you, but this will make them never WANT to. The ability to run up to Mr Squishy and slap him around is fantastic. Obviously not useful if you aren't fighting casters.

Blinding Reflection****: So, lots of extra damage, and a save or suck draw rider. And one of the nastier sucks, as well. And, if they make the save, you get a small consolation rider

Ride the Current*****: This scales for the same reason Calm the Storm does: High level enemies rely on multiple attacks. With this, you shut down their attack (by moving out of range) and get to stab them back (trading for the POSSIBLE hit on you).

Spoiler: Level 5

Show

Whirlpool Strike***: Nice AoE. Remember to combine with Reaching Blade Stance if you can get the draw rider to extend your reach and add some damage

Flowing Stream*****: You may have noticed a certain bias here, but these counters are great in their scaling. Dodge the attack, shank the enemy, and run away to safety. [Note for Elric: It mentions Reflex saves. Can you use this to completely dodge stuff like Fireball?]

Rapid Current***: This is the upgrade to Dual Crash. Now you get 2 hits standard and a third on draw. [Note for Elric: Same question as Dual Crash, does the damage apply to the draw hit? If so, move up a grade]

Mithral Flash***: Attack vs attack is pretty reliable, and the counterattack is a nice addition. However, your opponent can keep attacking, unlike with other counters in the discipline.

Spoiler: Level 6

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Quicksilver Wave***: The raw damage isn't aging well at this stage. Still looks cool.

Endless Current****: Given the phrasing "10ft step", I'm assuming this works like a 5ft step but longer. If so, this is one of the best ways I've ever seen to reach a backline caster. [Note to Elric: If I'm wrong, this is red]

Mithral Current Stance**: Sad but true. This stance has almost no synergy with the rest of the discipline. The best thing about it is swinging twice on a standard, but that's a bit weak for a 6th level stance.

Crashing Wake****: Remember the silly trips I mentioned on Rushing Wake for builds with reach? Well, now it's silly AoE damage. Would be purple, but doesn't prevent AoO from ruining your day.

Spoiler: Level 7

Show

Flowing River*****: Remember how I mentioned Disruptive Wave and casters not wanting to target you? Now you don't need a charge line, and get to stab him twice for more damage. Also, boosting skills is way easier than boosting saves.

Raging Whirlpool Strike****: I call this one "The Blender". Slice them up nice and small. On draw nets you two hits and +8d6 damage against everyone adjacent to you.

Blade of the Silver Sea**: So, the same damage as everything else, but no AoE or movement. However, this pulls the silver properties of MC into play (finally). Also worth grabbing a Silver weapon if you want this.

Spoiler: Level 8

Show

Mithral Wave*: +12d6 and possible range does not an 8th level maneuver make. [Note to Elric: Maybe make this one a Cone attack?]

Mithral Lightning Stance*****: Speed, AC, and counterattacks. Want to have some fun? Use Crashing Wake in this stance. Watch them try to stab you. Worth noting that since you counterattack when they attack, instead of on a hit or a miss, your attack goes before theirs, so you can kill them to negate.

Riptide Slice**: Better because Flat footed scales better than Close Range, but still just an upgrade of a first level maneuver.

And the 9th...

Truesilver Tsunami***: To explain, you make a full attack with everything dealing +4d6. That's the damage you're dealing. DR applies only once to the total, and if you draw, you ignore miss chance and concealment. Fun, but not the best 9th. Wish it had more synergy with the stances.

[Elricaltovilla]

Finished faster than expected. Will be leaving now.

Spoiler: Mithral Current Review

Show

Spoiler: Level 1

Show

Swift Current****: Strike for +1d6 is fairly standard at this level. However, the draw bonus is very nice in combination with the right class features and stances (Body of the Night springs to mind), which helps it age quite well.

Tidal Blade****: Comparing this to other maneuvers, it does the same thing as Scything Blade from Scarlet Throne: Hit 2 dudes. But, if you draw your weapon, you get a bonus to hit. So potentially better.

Flowing Creek*****: Okay, for perspective, most skill check AC replacers are level 2. and this lets you take a 5ft step if they miss. Fun times.

Following Wake***: So, spend your swift and attach a trip (using Perform (Dance)) to you next attack. Definitely not something to brush off lightly if you are focusing more on control than damage

Ready the Draw*****: This makes the discipline work at low levels before you have the feats to draw/sheathe normally. The extra Combat Reflexes is a bit odd for Warders (does it stack with Defensive Focus?), but this stance is still pretty much mandatory if you want to use on draw effects at low levels.

Reaching Blade Stance****: Damage and reach. Sadly, the damage ages once you can full attack, but more Reach will never be a bad thing (especially since you threaten all of it)

Spoiler: Level 2

Show

Dual Crash***: +2d6 damage isn't bad. However, +2d6 damage and two hits before activating a Boost is wonderful. [Question for Elric: does the bonus damage apply to both hits? If so, move up a rank]

Iron Wave***: Again, +2d6 damage isn't bad, and the draw effect here isn't nearly as strong as with Dual Crash. However, it is a lot more awesome to visualize.

Calm the Storm*****: Okay, when you get it, this lets you hit someone in retaliation. However, this might be the best scaling counter in PoW. The higher level you get, the more attacks your opponent has. Therefore, the more it will hurt them to lose them. And big things, especially ones that work with class levels, tend to have lower Reflex saves. I can genuinely see myself readying this at 20

Ride the Wake**: I almost gave this a one star, but I can see it having uses. It's a primarily defensive boost that doesn't protect you from AoO.

Riptide Strike***: Standard fare for these strike. +2d6 damage, and trip with +2 as a rider. Passable maneuver.

Spoiler: Level 3

Show

Salt Breeze Strike**: Decent damage, but the draw rider isn't fantastic [Note to Elric: Maybe save or blind for a round? would up to blue]

Flowing Water Stance**: Defensive bonuses. The initiative is nice, but I would switch out of this as soon as that wasn't needed. The big problem is that, while you can sheathe your weapon as a free action, without Mithral Current Style, this is completely useless. Kick this up to Blue**** with MC Style, since that is the truly glaring problem.

Rippling Current****: Swift Current's older brother. Again, great because of how many things work only against flat footed targets. If you aren't using anything like that, this drops to Orange**

Rushing Wake***: Now, let me clarify something: This is Purple***** for control builds. If you want damage, don't look here, but if you have a focus on tripping and have a reach weapon (thinking Zweihander Sentinel with Reaching Blade Stance), this can trip ARMIES. Even funnier if you can get flight and charge over them, sweeping their legs out as you go.

Spoiler: Level 4

Show

Silver Wave****: So, that's a jump. Previously, your best strikes were dealing 3d6. Now we have 6d6, and if you draw you get range (and you get to look awesome)

Disruptive Wave***: Caster's don't always need to target you, but this will make them never WANT to. The ability to run up to Mr Squishy and slap him around is fantastic. Obviously not useful if you aren't fighting casters.

Blinding Reflection****: So, lots of extra damage, and a save or suck draw rider. And one of the nastier sucks, as well. And, if they make the save, you get a small consolation rider

Ride the Current*****: This scales for the same reason Calm the Storm does: High level enemies rely on multiple attacks. With this, you shut down their attack (by moving out of range) and get to stab them back (trading for the POSSIBLE hit on you).

Spoiler: Level 5

Show

Whirlpool Strike***: Nice AoE. Remember to combine with Reaching Blade Stance if you can get the draw rider to extend your reach and add some damage

Flowing Stream*****: You may have noticed a certain bias here, but these counters are great in their scaling. Dodge the attack, shank the enemy, and run away to safety. [Note for Elric: It mentions Reflex saves. Can you use this to completely dodge stuff like Fireball?]

Rapid Current***: This is the upgrade to Dual Crash. Now you get 2 hits standard and a third on draw. [Note for Elric: Same question as Dual Crash, does the damage apply to the draw hit? If so, move up a grade]

Mithral Flash***: Attack vs attack is pretty reliable, and the counterattack is a nice addition. However, your opponent can keep attacking, unlike with other counters in the discipline.

Spoiler: Level 6

Show

Quicksilver Wave***: The raw damage isn't aging well at this stage. Still looks cool.

Endless Current****: Given the phrasing "10ft step", I'm assuming this works like a 5ft step but longer. If so, this is one of the best ways I've ever seen to reach a backline caster. [Note to Elric: If I'm wrong, this is red]

Mithral Current Stance**: Sad but true. This stance has almost no synergy with the rest of the discipline. The best thing about it is swinging twice on a standard, but that's a bit weak for a 6th level stance.

Crashing Wake****: Remember the silly trips I mentioned on Rushing Wake for builds with reach? Well, now it's silly AoE damage. Would be purple, but doesn't prevent AoO from ruining your day.

Spoiler: Level 7

Show

Flowing River*****: Remember how I mentioned Disruptive Wave and casters not wanting to target you? Now you don't need a charge line, and get to stab him twice for more damage. Also, boosting skills is way easier than boosting saves.

Raging Whirlpool Strike****: I call this one "The Blender". Slice them up nice and small. On draw nets you two hits and +8d6 damage against everyone adjacent to you.

Blade of the Silver Sea**: So, the same damage as everything else, but no AoE or movement. However, this pulls the silver properties of MC into play (finally). Also worth grabbing a Silver weapon if you want this.

Spoiler: Level 8

Show

Mithral Wave*: +12d6 and possible range does not an 8th level maneuver make. [Note to Elric: Maybe make this one a Cone attack?]

Mithral Lightning Stance*****: Speed, AC, and counterattacks. Want to have some fun? Use Crashing Wake in this stance. Watch them try to stab you. Worth noting that since you counterattack when they attack, instead of on a hit or a miss, your attack goes before theirs, so you can kill them to negate.

Riptide Slice**: Better because Flat footed scales better than Close Range, but still just an upgrade of a first level maneuver.

And the 9th...

Truesilver Tsunami***: To explain, you make a full attack with everything dealing +4d6. That's the damage you're dealing. DR applies only once to the total, and if you draw, you ignore miss chance and concealment. Fun, but not the best 9th. Wish it had more synergy with the stances.

Thanks for getting this done so quickly! To answer some questions:

Dual Crash and Related: The bonus damage does not apply to the extra attacks gained for drawing your weapon.

Endless Step: The 10 ft. steps are like 5 ft. steps but... 10 ft. long. So it works exactly how you think it does.

Mithral Current Stance: Makes me sad to think this doesn't have any synergy. Any thoughts on how to improve/fix that issue?

[Vhaidara]

The problem is that MC Stance has nothing to do with either counterattacks or drawing, which seem to be the two foci of this discipline. Rather, it makes you a bit faster (woo, Flux got better at 3), treat as silver (pretty useless/fluffy except in combination with Blade of the Silver Sea), and an extra attack on standard and full attacks. The biggest problem is that maneuvers don't really take advantage of Standard or Full Attack actions. Maybe the stance lets you initiate maneuvers as counterattacks?

The big thing for me, when I look at a discipline, is the stances. The stances are the backbone of the discipline, and should be able to tell you, in no uncertain terms, what the discipline does. Unquiet Grave mimics Undead. Elemental Flux manipulates the elements. Black Seraph turns you into the Angel of Death. Broken Blade breaks people, not blades. Golden Lion is for your allies, not you. Silver Crane makes you a holy knight. They all have a theme.

Current has a theme as well: Samurai. From the Iaijutsu that is most of it, to attacking against overwhelming odds (Reaching Blade + AoE maneuvers). But multiple attacks, and only when not using your maneuvers, isn't that.

Also, I believe it is Errant formatting the discipline: Thank you so much

[Dgrin]

Spoiler: Mithral Current

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Spoiler: Level 1

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Swift Current**** - Strike. Fairly standard bonus damage of +1d6 but draw bonus makes that very good. This may even be useful on higher levels. Or it could if there weren't straight upgrades to it

Tidal Blade**** - Strike. So, it is better Cleave which does not cost a feat. May also be used with boosts to clear small enemies better

Flowing Creek***** - Counter. Skill check to negate an attack. You can also take a 5-foot step for free which can interrupt full attacks. Great counter that comes online earlier than usual, and you get to negate an attack even if there is no place to 5-foot step into. That will age gracefully as you level up.

Following Wake**** - Boost. If we go with full version, that is free trip attempt with good chances to succeed. You may use it with one of your AoE strikes for sweet trips cause they generally include only one attack roll. However, short version implies that you need to charge, which downgrades that boost to green

Ready the Draw***** - Stance. That stance is equivalent to 4 feats. That is something that enables your fighting style and allowes you to utilize draw bonus. Great stuff

Reaching Blade Stance**** - Stance. Usual bonus damage for first level stances with nice additional effect. If it works on attacks of opportunity, increasing your reach, this may be even better

Spoiler: Level 2

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Dual Crash*** - Strike. Make 2 attacks at full BAB as standard action. It is good, and even better with boosts but not being able to attack another target and low use without draw bonus seal the final rating

Iron Wave*** - Strike. It is definitely cool but not cool enough to be ranked higher. It is like Dual Crash but with weaker draw effect

Calm the Storm*** - Counter. I don't really like counters that require you to get hit in order to use them but that one is quite strong - you get to counterattack your foe and prevent other attacks from him. This becomes stronger while you level up but Flowing Creek can protect you from all attacks, does not require your enemy to fail their save and is one level lower

Ride the Wake** - Boost. This one is bad. If that protected you from AoO at least from the target of your attack (like withdraw), that could be better but now it is not worth preparing.

Riptide Strike*** - Strike. Another +2d6 strike with draw bonus. Trip may be useful so that one is on par with Dual Crash

Spoiler: Level 3

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Salt Breeze Strike*** - Strike. Another [Level]d6 strike with draw effect. This one is even weaker than usual. I'd suggest to change it to penalty to all d20 rolls for round, which makes that strike blue

Flowing Water Stance** - Stance. You sheathe weapon only at the end of your turn. That means your enemies do not provoke attacks of opportunity from you. This may be fixed with feat investment but as it is, defensive bonuses are not worth it.

Rippling Current**** - Strike. Swift Current's big brother. Everything said still applies. Having an easy way to make your opponent flat-footed is great for many characters

Rushing Wake** - Boost. That forces you to provoke in order to utilize it. It could be good for niche builds if it allowed you to use your reach but now it is not worth being hit

Spoiler: Level 4

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Silver Wave**** - Strike. Higher damage makes that worthwhile and treating your weapons as silver is nice little addition.

Disruptive Wave*** - Counter. I like that. It is quite situational and not the strongest counter but it is badass. And that is the reason to love it

Blinding Reflection**** - Strike. The usual strike pattern but it has the chance to blind which is one of the strongest conditions you could have. Basically, that is save or suck

Ride the Current*** - Counter. It is basically Calm the Storm without save. But then you remember that Flowing Creek is level one and can prevent first attack too. It does not offer a counterattack but that's not too useful without bonus damage anyway. Not too good for level 4

Spoiler: Level 5

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Whirlpool Strike**** - Strike. Nice AoE, great for clearing hordes of small enemies. This is a single attack roll so you may combine it with boosts and Reaching Blade Stance. Good stuff

Flowing Stream***** - Counter. All my love for Flowing Creek applies here. Stopping full attacks, offering counterattack and enchanced mobility - what's not to like?

Rapid Current*** - Strike. Pretty straightforward - you deal some good damage. This one is a boss killer, basically

Mithral Flash*** - Counter. This negates only one attack, but with pretty good chance and also allows you to counterattack with nice bonus damage. Why not, I guess?

Spoiler: Level 6

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Quicksilver Wave*** - Strike. I think I've seen that maneuver somewhere... Yea, pretty much everything I said applies here - it is above average but not more.

Endless Wake*** - Boost. To be honest, I am not sure how to rate that. It may be awesome if you have enough enemies that are staying in some kind of formation but it also may be quite useless

Mithral Current Stance** - Stance. Too weak for level 6. Additional attack on standard action does not justify taking it, even with minor bonuses like speed increase. If you have some ways to utilize silver weapons (like style feat), that may be green

Crashing Wake**** - Strike. It is like Rushing Wake but if you have reach, you don't provoke so it is good AoE damage

Spoiler: Level 7

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Flowing River***** - Counter. Now we are talking. Immediate move to the caster to spoil his day - and you get to use skill bonus for saves

Raging Whirlpool Strike**** - Strike. I love that strike. Everyone loves it. Apart from poor foes close to you when you're doing it. Still a single attack roll to combine with boosts

Blade of the Silver Sea** - Strike. May be useful if you are going to use silver vulnerability but too niche for me

Spoiler: Level 8

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Mithral Wave** - Strike. This again? Not at 8th level. Skip that

Mithral Lightning Stance***** - Stance. I love that stance. That is the reason to use all that maneuvers which still provoke attacks from enemies. Amazing mobility and great thematically

Riptide Slice** - Strike. The same problem - damage is not too good at that level and rider is not amazing enough too

Spoiler: Level 9

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Truesilver Tsunami**** - Tons of damage but not anything special. Kinda boring for capstone. But strong. It is capstone, after all. Yea

I already offered some thoughts on the discipline as a whole in PoW thread, I will think more tomorrow. Now I am quite tired so I am going to sleep soon. Hope my work was useful for you

[Feint's End]

Elricaltovilla: Can you offer your opinion on what I said about the Zealot? Maybe I'm not seeing it but in my eyes the class has some major flaws. I'd like to hear your point of view (especially on skills, recovery method and the bad fort save).

[Elricaltovilla]

Elricaltovilla: Can you offer your opinion on what I said about the Zealot? Maybe I'm not seeing it but in my eyes the class has some major flaws. I'd like to hear your point of view (especially on skills, recovery method and the bad fort save).

I'll agree that the recovery method is flawed, Novawurmson is working on that. A good Fort Save would benefit the class, but I don't know that its super necessary, just a bit disappointing and it kind of breaks with the standard class setup. The skills... meh. I'm not too worried about the skills unless its a class that's supposed to utilize them.

[Vhaidara]

Zealot actually has one of my favorite recovery methods, and it fits the class beautifully. I don't really understand the concern about solo play: Why would you use a Zealot (or a Vitalist/Tactician) in solo play? Their main ability is literally making a collective to help their allies! It's like running a Bard solo and complaining that Inspire doesn't do enough.

[Feint's End]

I'll agree that the recovery method is flawed, Novawurmson is working on that. A good Fort Save would benefit the class, but I don't know that its super necessary, just a bit disappointing and it kind of breaks with the standard class setup. The skills... meh. I'm not too worried about the skills unless its a class that's supposed to utilize them.

Yes, yes and yes. I agree with all 3 of them. I kind of understand the skills now if it fits the class setup but I'm still confused on the bad fort save. Hopefully we'll get that. Then the whole class would make a bit more sense to me (tough frontline fighter with leadership capabilities instead of the current mashup between a supernatural support (high will like the other two classes) and frontline melee).

Zealot actually has one of my favorite recovery methods, and it fits the class beautifully. I don't really understand the concern about solo play: Why would you use a Zealot (or a Vitalist/Tactician) in solo play? Their main ability is literally making a collective to help their allies! It's like running a Bard solo and complaining that Inspire doesn't do enough.

The Bard point is kind of moot because it still affects themselves. There will be situations in every campaign (or at least most campaigns) where you have to fight for yourself and what about the Zealot then? I get why they use this recovery but is it too much to ask for an alternative? Even the Mystic has Blade Meditation so they have a way to work around.

The optional recovery doesn't even have to be all that great (heck let them use Aid Another on themselves as a full round action and let them pay some pp) but it would still be nice to have. As I've said in the other thread Mind of the World Mover just doesn't cut it (and feels like a tacked on fix to an inherent problem). Also Mind of the World Shaker becomes so good that it's basically a Conviction tax (and taxation shows bad design).