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Thread: Wizard Abjurer

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    Default Wizard Abjurer

    I want to play a defensive Wizard, so i'm thinking about the abjuration school. My freind is going to playa paladn, so i'm thinking about a wizard for defending him. We probably pick the accolyte background, and we are agents for a church. We must be super L/G. In my group there are already a monk(the sneaky one), a cleric and a sorcerer, and maybe a bard.
    I ask for some suggestions about the spells and feats, and probably if is it good multiclassing with warlock( 2 LV)..

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    Default Re: Wizard Abjurer

    Quote Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
    I want to play a defensive Wizard, so i'm thinking about the abjuration school. My freind is going to playa paladn, so i'm thinking about a wizard for defending him. We probably pick the accolyte background, and we are agents for a church. We must be super L/G. In my group there are already a monk(the sneaky one), a cleric and a sorcerer, and maybe a bard.
    I ask for some suggestions about the spells and feats, and probably if is it good multiclassing with warlock( 2 LV)..
    Multiclassing with warlock's pointless, won't really help you. If you want a full caster with a two level warlock dip, be a sorcerer, the charisma and metamagic synergy will work for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
    I ask if is it good multiclassing with warlock( 2 LV)..
    Warlock doesn't multiclass so well with wizard since the casting stats are different. Wizards in general are probably best of staying single-classed. You'll understand why when you start playing and see how slow your spells progress with multiclassing.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2014-11-13 at 10:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Wizard Abjurer

    I personally am a huge fan of the staying power this dip adds to abjurers. You can use your two invocations to give yourself effectively free healing in between encounters, not even requiring a short rest.

    Take False life as an invocation for a free 8 hp in between encounters. Take Armor of shadows to refill your ward hp between encounters. Between the two of these, about half your hps will be infinitely refillable. The one problem with this strategy is that the false life will get less and less relevant as you go up in levels, but for the first five levels it's a godsend.

    What's more you'll have refillable (with a short rest) use of shield spells to both give you some temporary AC and slightly refill your ward by using your warlock slots instead of your wizard slots. You can also take Armor of Agathys which combos very well with your ward (though if you do this you might want a different invocation than false life). Finally, the light armor that warlock gives you can be jumped up to medium armor, a shield, and a free dex point with medium armor proficiency which will give you AC on par with a front line character.

    Oh yes, and you can augment your scorching rays with Hex. That's pretty awesome.

    All that said, you'll be continuously behind two levels worth of spells until your very last level. For me, all the stuff you get in return is worth it since you have the option of being one of the tankiest characters in the game /as a wizard/. But some people would really miss their fifth level fireballs.

    As a side note, if you do this you probably shouldn't bother with eldritch blast. It's not worth the investment in a fourth stat.

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    Default Re: Wizard Abjurer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesps View Post
    I personally am a huge fan of the staying power this dip adds to abjurers. You can use your two invocations to give yourself effectively free healing in between encounters, not even requiring a short rest.

    Take False life as an invocation for a free 8 hp in between encounters. Take Armor of shadows to refill your ward hp between encounters. Between the two of these, about half your hps will be infinitely refillable. The one problem with this strategy is that the false life will get less and less relevant as you go up in levels, but for the first five levels it's a godsend.

    What's more you'll have refillable (with a short rest) use of shield spells to both give you some temporary AC and slightly refill your ward by using your warlock slots instead of your wizard slots. You can also take Armor of Agathys which combos very well with your ward (though if you do this you might want a different invocation than false life). Finally, the light armor that warlock gives you can be jumped up to medium armor, a shield, and a free dex point with medium armor proficiency which will give you AC on par with a front line character.

    Oh yes, and you can augment your scorching rays with Hex. That's pretty awesome.

    All that said, you'll be continuously behind two levels worth of spells until your very last level. For me, all the stuff you get in return is worth it since you have the option of being one of the tankiest characters in the game /as a wizard/. But some people would really miss their fifth level fireballs.

    As a side note, if you do this you probably shouldn't bother with eldritch blast. It's not worth the investment in a fourth stat.

    That's all what i'm thinking of... but our sorcer is already a multiclass, so probably is better a full arcane caster... What do you say?

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    Default Re: Wizard Abjurer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesps View Post
    I personally am a huge fan of the staying power this dip adds to abjurers. You can use your two invocations to give yourself effectively free healing in between encounters, not even requiring a short rest.

    Take False life as an invocation for a free 8 hp in between encounters. Take Armor of shadows to refill your ward hp between encounters. Between the two of these, about half your hps will be infinitely refillable. The one problem with this strategy is that the false life will get less and less relevant as you go up in levels, but for the first five levels it's a godsend.

    What's more you'll have refillable (with a short rest) use of shield spells to both give you some temporary AC and slightly refill your ward by using your warlock slots instead of your wizard slots. You can also take Armor of Agathys which combos very well with your ward (though if you do this you might want a different invocation than false life). Finally, the light armor that warlock gives you can be jumped up to medium armor, a shield, and a free dex point with medium armor proficiency which will give you AC on par with a front line character.

    Oh yes, and you can augment your scorching rays with Hex. That's pretty awesome.

    All that said, you'll be continuously behind two levels worth of spells until your very last level. For me, all the stuff you get in return is worth it since you have the option of being one of the tankiest characters in the game /as a wizard/. But some people would really miss their fifth level fireballs.

    As a side note, if you do this you probably shouldn't bother with eldritch blast. It's not worth the investment in a fourth stat.
    If you're going with that, you might as well take a third level and grab a pact weapon/extra attack - wizards get enlarge, so you can enlarge yourself and shape your warlock blade into a large monster weapon. Dao maul's a favourite, 4d6 damage and an automatic knockdown attempt every time you hit. Combine with a high level armour of agathys casting and you can be reflecting 30hp every time you're hit with your ward stopping you from losing the temporary hp. Do note that as fun as a warlock 2/3 dip is, it's still not as strong as just taking wizard levels. High level spells are very, very powerful.

    Refill wise, you can achieve a decent ward recharge with just wizard levels - recasting the alarm ritual repeatedly will get you 11hp an hour, while an hour's short rest will only get you 4hp worth of warlock slots.

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    Default Re: Wizard Abjurer

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Warlock doesn't multiclass so well with wizard since the casting stats are different. Wizards in general are probably best of staying single-classed. You'll understand why when you start playing and see how slow your spells progress with multiclassing.
    Many of the Warlock invocations do not require Charisma at all. If you're only dipping 2 levels, you can cherry-pick and in fact dump charisma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Many of the Warlock invocations do not require Charisma at all. If you're only dipping 2 levels, you can cherry-pick and in fact dump charisma.
    True, but in many cases the biggest reason to dip warlock is eldritch blast+agonising blast+repelling blast for at will 10-40 feet unsavable knockback and at will ranged damage rivalling martials based on your casting stat (hello between 1-4(1d10+1d6+cha mod)!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    Refill wise, you can achieve a decent ward recharge with just wizard levels - recasting the alarm ritual repeatedly will get you 11hp an hour, while an hour's short rest will only get you 4hp worth of warlock slots.
    Armor of shadows lets you refill your ward in a few rounds, and you can do it while walking. I find when I play that short rests tend to be pretty scarce, but I always have a few rounds available between encounters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
    That's all what i'm thinking of... but our sorcer is already a multiclass, so probably is better a full arcane caster... What do you say?
    I don't think that single class is any worse than a dip in warlock. The dip balances the character, sacrificing some of its strength to shore up some of its weaknesses. That said; a sorcerer/warlock plays very differently than an abjurer/warlock. The first is a blaster, and the second is a protector so I wouldn't worry unduly about overlap.

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    Default Re: Wizard Abjurer

    Instead of dipping into warlock for staying power, why not just play a Mountain Dwarf? You can start with medium armour, and at your discretion upgrade it to heavy with the feat later on. Depending on your dex you can get a pretty good AC even early on while leaving your spell slots open.

    Also with full casters just don't multiclass. Spells scale too much that you're loosing out on too much by delaying your spell access.
    Last edited by Regulas; 2014-11-13 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesps View Post
    Armor of shadows lets you refill your ward in a few rounds, and you can do it while walking. I find when I play that short rests tend to be pretty scarce, but I always have a few rounds available between encounters.
    Armour of shadows+arcane ward is one of my favourite tricks, you'll notice it from my 5e combos thread, but I really hate the idea of using up one of two invocations on it, hence my preference for alarm (which can be used whenever you're not really doing anything else). My main problem though is the two level delay of the good parts of being a wizard, their higher level stuff is really good. True polymorphing the entire party into ancient dragons = fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    Instead of dipping into warlock for staying power, why not just play a Mountain Dwarf? You can start with medium armour, and at your discretion upgrade it to heavy with the feat later on. Depending on your dex you can get a pretty good AC even early on while leaving your spell slots open.

    Also with full casters just don't multiclass. Spells scale too much that you're loosing out on too much by delaying your spell access.
    A few bonus AC is not really staying power in the same way an endlessly refilling pool of ablative hp is.
    Last edited by Eslin; 2014-11-13 at 12:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    Instead of dipping into warlock for staying power, why not just play a Mountain Dwarf? You can start with medium armour, and at your discretion upgrade it to heavy with the feat later on. Depending on your dex you can get a pretty good AC even early on while leaving your spell slots open.

    Also with full casters just don't multiclass. Spells scale too much that you're loosing out on too much by delaying your spell access.
    Agreed. Also, since OP said he want to protect others, a single class wizard may be better at it.

    Oddly, diviners may be the best at safeguarding their party members, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    True polymorphing the entire party into ancient dragons = fun.
    I hope you get their permission first, because otherwise that might not turn out well for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    I hope you get their permission first, because otherwise that might not turn out well for you.
    You can only do one a day, it's not exactly something you could sneak up on people. And if you did and they didn't like it they could just kill themselves, when they hit 0hp they'll turn back into their old full hp humanoid selves.

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    Default Re: Wizard Abjurer

    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    True polymorphing the entire party into ancient dragons = fun.
    What is fun about permanently losing all your class levels?

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    Default Re: Wizard Abjurer

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    Instead of dipping into warlock for staying power, why not just play a Mountain Dwarf? You can start with medium armour, and at your discretion upgrade it to heavy with the feat later on. Depending on your dex you can get a pretty good AC even early on while leaving your spell slots open.
    I really hate dwarves

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Agreed. Also, since OP said he want to protect others, a single class wizard may be better at it.

    Oddly, diviners may be the best at safeguarding their party members, though.
    We are playing in Ravenloft, so divination is really bad...
    Last edited by Chelios; 2014-11-13 at 12:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    What is fun about permanently losing all your class levels?
    Nothing? It was one of the charms of 2e and 3.x that one could be permanently level drained, but since then that hasn't been a thing. It was still fun though, in that it made certain threats genuinely scary for players.

    Even when you make true polymorph permanent in duration, that's all you're changing - the duration. It can still be removed by hitting 0hp or just dispelled (which is 100% guaranteed to work if they cast it as a ninth level spell), and once it is you're back to your old self. No idea where you're getting permanent loss of class levels from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
    I really hate dwarves
    I too dislike regular boring thick drinking celtic dwarves, but I have always loved things like War Hammer Chaos Dwarves (old style), or WoW Dark Iron's, which would be Duegar in D&D. When you get rid of some of the more classically bad stereotypes dwarves become a tad less horrible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    A few bonus AC is not really staying power in the same way an endlessly refilling pool of ablative hp is.
    I'll certainly admit that it doesn't compare, I was thinking though that for a main wizard medium or heavy armour should still add a good chunk of survive-ability (over a non armoured wizard) while more importantly not needing to loose out on any spells this way (so a compromise, plus it's just awesome to be able to be in D&D as a full wizard wearing Plate in the long run).

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    Just as a quick note, I don't know if anyone has looked in depth at the high level spell advancement but after about 11th level you only get one new spell every other level. Granted, it's a powerful one, but it is nothing like 3.5 where you'd get a few new castable spells per level every level.

    On even levels you don't get any new spells at all (though you'll always get a class ability or an ability score advancement).

    To me, this makes wizard 11-20 a pretty dull class and delaying these levels doesn't seem like that big a cost to me.

    Yeah, you can't do crazy high level shenanigans as quickly, but being that this is for a Ravenloft campaign, those aren't really very thematic for the setting anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesps View Post
    Just as a quick note, I don't know if anyone has looked in depth at the high level spell advancement but after about 11th level you only get one new spell every other level. Granted, it's a powerful one, but it is nothing like 3.5 where you'd get a few new castable spells per level every level.

    On even levels you don't get any new spells at all (though you'll always get a class ability or an ability score advancement).

    To me, this makes wizard 11-20 a pretty dull class and delaying these levels doesn't seem like that big a cost to me.

    Yeah, you can't do crazy high level shenanigans as quickly, but being that this is for a Ravenloft campaign, those aren't really very thematic for the setting anyways.
    Not sure about thematic, but 11-20 is when things start getting crazy for a wizard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    I too dislike regular boring thick drinking celtic dwarves, but I have always loved things like War Hammer Chaos Dwarves (old style), or WoW Dark Iron's, which would be Duegar in D&D. When you get rid of some of the more classically bad stereotypes dwarves become a tad less horrible.
    Celtic dwarves never really did it for me, either. Long before John Rhys-Davies gave Gimli his accent, I've always preferred my dwarves to be Norse/Germanic in culture and language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
    I'll certainly admit that it doesn't compare, I was thinking though that for a main wizard medium or heavy armour should still add a good chunk of survive-ability (over a non armoured wizard) while more importantly not needing to loose out on any spells this way (so a compromise, plus it's just awesome to be able to be in D&D as a full wizard wearing Plate in the long run).
    There's also the fact that Armor of Shadows + Arcane Ward doesn't come on line until you reach 4th level. Being able to wear armor helps you stay alive when you're at your squishiest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    There's also the fact that Armor of Shadows + Arcane Ward doesn't come on line until you reach 4th level. Being able to wear armor helps you stay alive when you're at your squishiest.
    That is a bit of a problem. You can mitigate it by taking the first two wizard levels at level 1 and 2. This gives you your ward and makes you just as tanky as any other abjurer. Then for levels 3 and 4 you take warlock. Your weakest level will be 3, but you'll get a refreshable 1st level spell to play with at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    If you're going with that, you might as well take a third level and grab a pact weapon/extra attack - wizards get enlarge, so you can enlarge yourself and shape your warlock blade into a large monster weapon. Dao maul's a favourite, 4d6 damage and an automatic knockdown attempt every time you hit.
    Yeah, you may want to check with your DM before you try that. Considering this: http://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/2...n-for-warlock/
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