Apple WW

[Internet Flea]

Meta question: Why are PMs forwarded to narrators?

The primary reason is so I don't contradict someone if they lie about something privately and someone else asks me about it.
The secondary reason is if someone disappears, I can forward all their communications to their replacement.
The tertiary reason is I just like to know what's going on in my game.

I'd go on but I don't know what comes after 'tertiary'.

[Aventine]

Yeah, trying to avoid being on a bandwagon is kinda strange. If you don't want to vote for the two leaders vote for someone else. I also didn't really like his justification for it yesterday where he implied I was actively voting "no lynch." So Vwulf

[sphazre]

The primary reason is so I don't contradict someone if they lie about something privately and someone else asks me about it.
The secondary reason is if someone disappears, I can forward all their communications to their replacement.
The tertiary reason is I just like to know what's going on in my game.

I'd go on but I don't know what comes after 'tertiary'.

I see. Thanks.

[Fleeing Coward]

Vwulf because Sprig makes a good case.
I will however note that this is the third time Sprig has had to opportunity to put some pressure on Rain Dragon and refused. If Rain Dragon is a wolf, I'd put the chances of Sprig been a wolf at around 80%.

[Sprig]

So Sprig, are you intentionally or unintentionally trying to mislead town? Because if anyone cares to look back, I specifically addressed the possibilities the wolves are setting FC up. Multiple times in fact. And while I do find it to be a feasible occurrence, I'm not placing my bets on it while we have no better leads as all our best reasons to lynch anyone who isn't FC also apply to FC.

You did. But then with your unwavering focus on FC, you are ensuring that it continues being a viable option for the wolves. Also, another day has past. There is a whole extra day to analysis. The amount of game information has doubled and you think your conclusion from day 1 is now relevant? You need to re-analyse because your argument no longer applies.

I also don't think anyone (or at least not I) was saying we think the wolves totally would have killed FC last night if he wasn't a wolf. It certainly would be better for wolves to leave FC alone by that point if not a wolf. Half because he'd be drawing attention away from them, but also because he's not providing any useful analysis and actually helping to encourage people behaving in a "logic, smogic" manner where town winds up about as much a threat to the wolves as would a wet paper towel.

I would chuck you in the same boat. Oh maybe I should take that back, perhaps you have re-analysed and you have changed your tune a little bit. So its now its not 'he should have been killed night one'. it's now 'He's distracting and if we lynch him its doesn't matter because he is not contributing anyway...' Good to know.

As for why I'm alive if FC is a wolf, it's not like one wolf can veto the rest of the wolves on who to kill. Also I don't seriously believe FC would kill me first if he thought he could instead manipulate events to a point where town was never willing to lynch him due to drama. And as people can look back and see, he made a whole lot more drama happen than was necessary under any circumstance.

'X living means Y is not wolf' is not an argument that should have any weight put towards it. I actually can't believe FC even said it. But you are completely mistaken once again. The town have been willing to lynch FC. He wouldn't be drawing votes if they weren't.

We also have the various instances where he used very poor logic repeatedly and in general just behaved in a very anti-town manner.

Again same boat. There's half a dozen that I have my eye on for the same behavior.

And he was on Tanar's wagon (and at this point we can't rule out that the wolves had scried him unlike with Duck, even if it's a bit unlikely). And one of the things Tanar said last was that he found FC suspicious.

It was him or tanar pretty much. Where else did you expect FC's vote to be. You think he is wolf because he didn't self vote? Once again faulty logic. You need to consider the bigger picture a bit more.

And of course there was that thing last night and I still really don't buy the given excuse. (Well, it's not that it's impossible, it's just that there's no way a wolf wouldn't say exactly what FC did and there's no way to actually prove anything there. The only thing we can do is analyze Sprig's interactions with myself and FC and decide if we think there really is a good chance FC managed to not know he needed to forward PMs to Internet Flea & Logic (when his PM box isn't full) while sending/receiving PMs from Sprig who clearly did know.)

Ahhh so you have dropped the FC is wolf because he didn't die argument. Good.

As for the Pms. I gave you a silly answer yesterday because it was a silly assertion. It's easy not to notice whos included in a pm. You don't expect a private comms to include other people. Also its easy to miss re-including them in response pms because the quick reply only goes to the sender not all recipients.

But still, sure there is some kind of chance FC could be town. As far as I can tell it's now a smaller chance than him being a wolf though.

How is it smaller? You haven't done any bloody analysis. You just taking your feelings from yesterday and applying them today.

Also lynching him will at least tell us something about Sprig's alignment and at the absolute least will remove a huge distraction from more analytical discussions about other players.

It's both of you, don't try to take yourself out of the equation. You are providing just as much a distraction. In fact its about time you started pulling your weight. Start doing some proper analysis on other players for once. Same goes to you FC! Your better than that.

[Ramsus]

You've provided a lot less analysis than I have Sprig, so I don't think you should be throwing any stones. All I've seen you do so far is support really bad lynches and twist words in absurd ways. For example, claiming my having multiple arguments why I think someone is a wolf is changing my argument, as if I can only have one at a time. As for FC voting for Tanar, no, just no. You don't get to claim he was defending himself since FC was one of the early people on the Tanar wagon and it wasn't a leading wagon at the time. Who was he supposed to vote for? How about anyone who the logic for voting for was not obviously completely faulty?

Oh, my bad. You have also done another thing. You've told people not to listen to me while I'm one of the only people questioning our lynch choices and bothering to see if they make any sense at all.

And seriously, everyone else, c'mon the reasoning for Vwulf is "cuz he voted for FC and Sprig is claiming he's ignoring something that was in fact not ignored". Nobody finds this fishy? Or at least an even dumber wagon that Legato's and Tanar's were? Even if you're inexplicably not going to listen to me about FC, we have to do a lot better than this or we're just handing the game to the wolves.
Edit: Whoops. Forgot the second really not a good reason for Vwulf. He chose to no vote once when he wasn't sure where to vote. Yeah ok, that's no great but.... not exactly a solid lead if he's only done it once.

[Fleeing Coward]

I'd like to point out that I was willing to go in a different direction and still am today in the interest of gathering more information. Despite my belief he's more harm than good to town even if he isn't a wolf, I'm not even voting for Ramsus today since that'd get us no new information. Ramsus is the one that's unwilling to let this drop.

[Sprig]

Tanar was lynched on better logic than anything you have come up with so far. You don't get to make any assertions about the validity of any logic when yours has been so lacking.

I guess it is time to take my own advice.

[Vwulf DeMarcus]

Oh I agree that I'm probably more harm than good to the town, even though I'm not a wolf. I don't know how y'all think yet. I'm effectively new, though I'm not new to the gametype. I basically have been following those who make the most sense to me and throwing out ideas. So if you think I'm voting badly, a) so be it, and b) I pretty much don't know any better. As I write each new post I think "Wow, this sounds really wolfy, but I'm too lazy to change it. Oh well." So I guess I'm not surprised that I'm being voted for.

EDIT: Derp, I thought FC was talking about me, not Ramsus. This is what happens when I don't read carefully.

[Ramsus]

I'm not "unwilling to let it drop". None of the other candidates so far have made any sense. And two of them have died and flipped town, I feel pretty dang justified about that. If someone were able to present someone with more evidence for why they're a wolf than you FC, I would vote for that person.

Also dur you're not voting for me. I mean, today. Yet. It'd make you look even more wolfish since there's 0 evidence to back that up.

Btw, only responded to you because I was pretty sure some other wolf/misguided person would then parrot your assertion. (And I still wouldn't have responded if my faith in town had not already been completely shattered by the way the previous day played out.)

Edit: Vwulf, don't let people tell you you're not an asset to town just because you did what you thought was least harmful. As long as you're thinking and participating and not telling other people what they're saying doesn't count for whatever reason (*coughFC&Sprigcough*), you're not so low value to town that we should kill you off for such shabby reasons as have been presented. At least not when there's any reason at all to go after anyone else. Basically, what I'm saying is don't get discouraged. Town needs you. And all the rest of you. We need each one of you to think about what's going on and offer your opinions. And don't let anyone else tell you any differently.

[Fleeing Coward]

I'm not "unwilling to let it drop". None of the other candidates so far have made any sense. And two of them have died and flipped town, I feel pretty dang justified about that. If someone were able to present someone with more evidence for why they're a wolf than you FC, I would vote for that person.

You can claim that all you want, other people have made cases against other players, you just refuse to listen because you're tunnelvisioned on me and refuse to admit that your case against me holds no water.
Now you're blaiming the other lynchs on me? You must seriously be running out of reasons.

Also dur you're not voting for me. I mean, today. Yet. It'd make you look even more wolfish since there's 0 evidence to back that up.

Btw, only responded to you because I was pretty sure some other wolf/misguided person would then parrot your assertion. (And I still wouldn't have responded if my faith in town had not already been completely shattered by the way the previous day played out.)

Or because unlike you, I actually am interested in helping town actually gather information to help the search of wolves.
I could easily build a much stronger case than the flimsy one you built against me but how does that help town other than waste another day distracting town into me vs you.

Newer players, there's no need to trust me, you just have to look at the votes. No veterans are voting for me today or yesterday for good reason - they know Ramsus' bias here and that he hasn't actually provided a solid case against me.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh I agree that I'm probably more harm than good to the town, even though I'm not a wolf. I don't know how y'all think yet. I'm effectively new, though I'm not new to the gametype. I basically have been following those who make the most sense to me and throwing out ideas. So if you think I'm voting badly, a) so be it, and b) I pretty much don't know any better. As I write each new post I think "Wow, this sounds really wolfy, but I'm too lazy to change it. Oh well." So I guess I'm not surprised that I'm being voted for.

EDIT: Derp, I thought FC was talking about me, not Ramsus. This is what happens when I don't read carefully.

Well if you genuinely want to help Vwulf, who else do you think could be wolves in your opinion? There are multiple wolves in every game so you shouldn't be tunnelvisioning on one target like Ramsus is.

[Ramsus]

Considering it doesn't serves town's interest for me to respond to FC since he's just using that to make a bigger mess and preventing us from having real discussions, would someone else (not Sprig or Aventine please) actually point out all the screwed up stuff with the things he's saying? Because I'm caught at this point where I hope nobody is even taking 1/4th of the things he's saying seriously and worried that someone is actually just going to accept it at face value and believe some really crazy nonsense.

Edit: Also just to counter FC's stupid "tunnel vision" argument, if people...I dunno.... read anything I said during the last night/this day they should have picked up that I'm pretty dang suspicious of Sprig. At this point I'm beginning to think he'd be a likely wolf even if FC isn't (somehow) primarily based on how much he's been twisting people's words and telling people to ignore others', which is super anti-town.


Edit 2: Firedaemon, since you think Penguinator might be a wolf, who do you think would be on his wolf team? (This is a kinda random question, but we need more words out of people.)

[Fleeing Coward]

What "new" argument have you made over the past night/day that you believe shows I'm more likely to be wolf?
I'm calling you out on this Ramsus because I'm saying you havn't said one thing new. Prove me wrong.

Edit:

Edit 2: Firedaemon, since you think Penguinator might be a wolf, who do you think would be on his wolf team? (This is a kinda random question, but we need more words out of people.)

Real original Ramsus. Suddenly you're interested in what others think about wolf teams now that I asked Vwulf his thoughts?

[Ionbound]

Just a hunch. I'm mostly going on who Penguinator voted for, rather than any specific in-thread actions. Pressure is good with a record that bad.

[braveheart]

I thought about the situation a bit more and realised that as long as people are attacking FC he will be forced on the defensive and if he is town would be less able to help us. so i am going to temporarily place a No Vote until I can think of a better target

[Ramsus]

I didn't know originality was important. I thought getting people to talk was the idea. So sorry if you somehow got confused and thought we were running a PR war. I'm trying to get more people to talk. *rolls eyes* (See, that right there is what I mean when I say/imply you're providing negative benefit to town.)
Edit 3: Also... what? I asked people's opinions on stuff yesterday. Please don't pretend you're doing something I haven't done when in fact I did it a full day before you.

Well, let's see. I believe I made several cases for why I think you're a wolf even more than I did yesterday already in an earlier post. But I guess I'll just assume you can't read posts earlier than are happen right now? Because that makes sense or something. Either way, don't abuse the privilege of me treating you with the civility you haven't been showing me. I'm responding only because you're specifically "calling me out". Which I'm just mentally re-dubbibg as a request because otherwise I'd just tell you to sod off after the way you've been treating me.

So let's see. 1) There's the fact that you were on the Tanar wagon. Which was an incredibly dumb wagon. Like super super dumb so hard I can't believe you would seriously support it as town. And as we all know there is generally a wolf or two to be found on such wagons.

2) There's the fact that Tanar himself came to the conclusion you were suspicious enough to be worth lynching. (Admittedly this isn't new evidence itself. It's just the word of someone we now know is worth listening to as they were certainly town. Also he was an active player and so we can also assume his opinion wasn't just a whim or a random hunch.)

3) That super hinkey business where you somehow didn't know about the PMing the narrators rule despite having been in contact with Sprig who did in fact know that rule. Yes, you gave an explanation for that. That nobody can prove and any wolf ever would also make. It'd be a pretty weak reason all by itself, but in combination with the shifty way you've behaved all game, I think there's a reasonable chance you slipped up and didn't know about the rule because you've been communicating with Sprig in the wolf QT.

So yeah, that's 3. 3 new reasons from this day/last night that I already gave. So yeah, would someone please add "pretending Ramsus didn't post these reasons already & made the claim Ramsus didn't have new reasons to vote for him" onto the list of super suspicious/anti-town **** FC has done this game?

Edit: @Firedaemon: Uh.... that wasn't the point of the exercise. You don't have to be super sure about anything, just figure out some people you think might be wolves if Penguinator is a wolf and they approved of that scheme.

Edit 2: @Braveheart: Um, that's kinda odd logic. Not like super bad or anything but..... aren't you ignoring the possibility FC is a wolf there? If he's a wolf he will never do pro-town stuff. Also, considering I've had just as much of my time chewed up by FC as he has had defending himself, I think we can say he indeed does have the capability to make pro-town contributions, or at the very least not act in an anti-town manner.

[Fleeing Coward]

1) There's the fact that you were on the Tanar wagon. Which was an incredibly dumb wagon. Like super super dumb so hard I can't believe you would seriously support it as town. And as we all know there is generally a wolf or two to be found on such wagons.

I won't dignify that with an actual response. The fact you think anyone will believe that me been on Tanar's bandwagon is a sign of me been a wolf, I just don't know what to say.

2) There's the fact that Tanar himself came to the conclusion you were suspicious enough to be worth lynching. (Admittedly this isn't new evidence itself. It's just the word of someone we now know is worth listening to as they were certainly town. Also he was an active player and so we can also assume his opinion wasn't just a whim or a random hunch.)

It was Tanar or me so who in their right mind wouldn't pick not them-self? Also you accuse me of twisting other people's words? Tanar said himself that he'd rather not lynch any of the top 3 if possible. He only started thinking I could be wolf when the wagon was in full swing against him and at that point, who wouldn't think the other person is a wolf?

3) That super hinkey business where you somehow didn't know about the PMing the narrators rule despite having been in contact with Sprig who did in fact know that rule. Yes, you gave an explanation for that. That nobody can prove and any wolf ever would also make. It'd be a pretty weak reason all by itself, but in combination with the shifty way you've behaved all game, I think there's a reasonable chance you slipped up and didn't know about the rule because you've been communicating with Sprig in the wolf QT.

I'd like to invoke the narrator to confirm that I did indeed only forward my PMs with individuals I had PM conversations with during the last night phase. Since they are the ones that made the rule that they must see all PMs, I think it's only fair for them to confirm the simple fact that they received said PMs. I have nothing to hide here.

[Ramsus]

I'd like to invoke the narrator to confirm that I did indeed only forward my PMs with individuals I had PM conversations with during the last night phase. Since they are the ones that made the rule that they must see all PMs, I think it's only fair for them to confirm the simple fact that they received said PMs. I have nothing to hide here.

Uh...what? How would that disprove that you could have been talking to Sprig in the wolf chat? If you PMed anyone aside from Sprig or nobody at all we'd get the same answer from the narrators to that very specific request. Did you actually think anyone would fall for that? (Or if you somehow are town I wonder how you thought that would prove anything.)

Edit: Also I believe you requested from me 1 new reason I gave why we should lynch you. Not 1 reason you couldn't ever find any argument against. Your request to me has been thoroughly fulfilled and I shall now go back to ignoring you unless you manage to have anything that doesn't reek of BS to say or absolutely requires me to respond.
(lol @ FC calling me noticing a potential wolf screw up a dirty tactic after he's been intentionally abusing drama and outright insulting me for his own benefit all game.)

[Fleeing Coward]

Uh...what? How would that disprove that you could have been talking to Sprig in the wolf chat? If you PMed anyone aside from Sprig or nobody at all we'd get the same answer from the narrators to that very specific request. Did you actually think anyone would fall for that? (Or if you somehow are town I wonder how you thought that would prove anything.)

I'd like to invoke that the narrators confirm that I only forwarded the PMs I had with Sprig to them during the night phase even though my PMs with Sprig started way earlier.
They made the rule that gives you the opportunity to resort to such dirty tactics to try to get me lynched so I see no reason why they should be allowed to not answer that request.

Edit: Also I believe you requested from me 1 new reason I gave why we should lynch you. Not 1 reason you couldn't ever find any argument against. Your request to me has been thoroughly fulfilled and I shall now go back to ignoring you unless you manage to have anything that doesn't reek of BS to say or absolutely requires me to respond.

That's fine, I just wanted everyone else to see how BS your new excuses for lynching me are.

[Internet Flea]

I'd like to invoke that the narrators confirm that I only forwarded the PMs I had with Sprig to them during the night phase even though my PMs with Sprig started way earlier.

I will neither confirm nor deny that any player sent a PM to any other player at any time.

[Fleeing Coward]

I will neither confirm nor deny that any player sent a PM to any other player at any time.

I don't see any reason for you to refuse this request. You opened this can of worms by mandating that you must see all PMs so this was a problem directly caused by the narrators so it's your duty to solve it one way or another.

[Aventine]

I don't see any reason for you to refuse this request. You opened this can of worms by mandating that you must see all PMs so this was a problem directly caused by the narrators so it's your duty to solve it one way or another.

I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, is anyone actually paying attention to Ramsus's "FC must be a wolf because he didn't know you were supposed to include the narrators' in your PMs" argument?

[Fleeing Coward]

I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, is anyone actually paying attention to Ramsus's "FC must be a wolf because he didn't know you were supposed to include the narrators' in your PMs" argument?

I don't think so but Ramsus is directly trying to abuse a game mechanic to make his "case" and I'm not going to let him get away with that.

[Ramsus]

Aventine, of course not. That would imply anyone was listening to me at all and weren't just giving FC claps on the back every time he claims I haven't done something I have and then refusing to admit he totally lied when I prove I did or other such ridiculous garbage that nobody should have to put up with just to play a game. As I said at the very start of the game, FC's behavior ruins the game for me, and at this point I'm just about at the point of walking away from it because it's impossible for me to have any fun when someone can get away with treating me like this and clearly nobody cares.

Edit: -insert cursing here- FC I'm not trying to abuse ****. I thought I saw a wolf screw up, so I pointed it out. I didn't create the dang rule and I didn't make Sprig tell me he was in contact with you and I didn't make you admit you forgot the rule. Don't give me garbage for bothering to try and play the dang game.

Edit 2: FC, if you could y'know, stop trying to completely sabotage the very idea of playing friendly competitive games, would you mind ceasing to make disparaging remarks about me for a couple hours so I can cool down? Because it's really hard for me to calm down when you keep badmouthing the way I play the game and I have to remember the way you are playing it.

[Internet Flea]

IYou opened this can of worms by mandating that you must see all PMs so this was a problem directly caused by the narrators so it's your duty to solve it one way or another.

The rule was visible to all players from the beginning of the game. It's up to the players to solve the problem.

[Fleeing Coward]

Aventine, of course not. That would imply anyone was listening to me at all and weren't just giving FC claps on the back every time he claims I haven't done something I have and then refusing to admit he totally lied when I prove I did or other such ridiculous garbage that nobody should have to put up with just to play a game. As I said at the very start of the game, FCs behavior ruins the game for me, and at this point I'm just about at the point of walking away from it because it's impossible for me to have any fun when someone can get away with treating me like this and clearly nobody cares.

Edit: -insert cursing here- FC I'm not trying to abuse ****. I thought I saw a wolf screw up, so I pointed it out. I didn't create the dang rule and I didn't make Sprig tell me he was in contact with you and I didn't make you admit you forgot the rule. Don't give me garbage for bothering to try and play the dang game.

Edit 2: FC, if you could y'know, stop trying to completely sabotage the very idea of playing friendly competitive games, would you mind ceasing to make disparaging remarks about me for a couple hours so I can cool down? Because it's really hard for me to calm down when you keep badmouthing the way I play the game and I have to remember the way you are playing it.

I've said it before, I was perfectly willing to let it drop but if you keep accusing me of been wolf and refuse to even consider the possibility that I could be villager, I don't see any other options outside of defending myself.

I deliberately forced myself not to vote for you at the start of the day to avoid this situation but you insist on tunnelvisioning on me so I ask you, what else could I do other than respond?

I'll freely admit that I'm a cold bastard that try to not let emotions get in the way when I play this game but I find it necessary since it allows me to treat every game as a seperate entity and minimise the impact past games have on clouding my judgement in any particular game.

Edit: You'll note that even after all this, I'm still not voting for you because I believe the most likely explanation for your behaviour is that of a villager that's too caught up in the idea that someone is a wolf that they refuse to consider any other possibility. If I really wanted to be petty and my aim was to upset you, I could easily have made a case for you been a wolf that makes perfect logical sense.

[Sprig]

Edit: Vwulf, don't let people tell you you're not an asset to town just because you did what you thought was least harmful. As long as you're thinking and participating and not telling other people what they're saying doesn't count for whatever reason (*coughFC&Sprigcough*), you're not so low value to town that we should kill you off for such shabby reasons as have been presented. At least not when there's any reason at all to go after anyone else. Basically, what I'm saying is don't get discouraged. Town needs you. And all the rest of you. We need each one of you to think about what's going on and offer your opinions. And don't let anyone else tell you any differently.

@Vwulf - The sentiment, at least, expressed above is true. My accusation on you might be umm... aggressive (I would have framed it differently if I had known you were new) but I am generally easily swayed by activity and appearance of a concerted attempt to find possible wolves. If you able to suggest another possible candidate and able to articulate clearly your case against that person you would find that the pressure against you would lessen.

[Ramsus]

Ok, that's just about as much as I can tolerate FC. I don't know if you're honestly so off-base and look down on me so much that you can't comprehend that I was only going after you for personal reasons only on day 1 or if you're just a faking it for an in-game advantage and you really don't care what effect that has. And either way I no longer care. Neither reason gives you any right to treat me the way you have.

This is the point where someone might make some ultimatum to FC or to the community and demand they lynch him or they do something. Unfortunately I'm already 100% convinced none of you could give a brick about how FC behaves as if you did you already would have stopped him.

So yeah, I'm gonna try and calm down. Then I'll see if I'm going to stay in the game, drop out, or quit the community entirely.

Edit: To be more clear, I'm taking the rest of this phase off. If you have anything you want me to notice, you'll have to PM me.

[braveheart]

Random thought for the sake of my curiosity who other than myself and Vwulf would consider themselves to be new to the playgrounds warewolf community, this is my first game here and I walked in not knowing anything about any of you, I'm just wondering who else is in the same boat, or a similar one?

[Sprig]

Random thought for the sake of my curiosity who other than myself and Vwulf would consider themselves to be new to the playgrounds warewolf community, this is my first game here and I walked in not knowing anything about any of you, I'm just wondering who else is in the same boat, or a similar one?

I am relatively new to this place. This is my 4th (I think) game here. So not sure if that makes me new? Its been long enough that I am familiar with a couple of people and have some sense of their style. Some others I wouldn't even try to guess.