Apple WW

[Ramsus]

I don't really appreciate you joining in on the claim that my logical argument to vote for someone doesn't exist. If you want to argue against it, do so. It's rude to just offhand dismiss it just because someone creating drama about it gives you a convenient excuse.

Edit: I also don't really like you telling people to ignore me under the claim that I will supposedly continue to argue with FC when I said I would ignore him and have already clearly refused to be baited by him thus far.

Edit 2: Or in other words, it's rude of you to put words in my mouth. Especially when they're the exact opposite of the words that just recently came out of it.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm sorry...

I have got quickly tired of this...

Nether of the arguments put forth by FC or Ramsus despite the reams of text, have much solid content and there has been nothing really helpful to us at all to justify further voting on them. All it has done has sucked in a few people into its votex which means it is effectively a distraction. The only suitable excuse that I would accept would be if you wanted to lynch one fo them in order to stop the bickering and remove the distraction. But i havn;t actually even seen that vote yet.

To those voting FC and Ramsus, I ask you to ignore both of them for the time being and have a look at other options.

I'm voting for FC because I think they might be a wolf and because it would end this. Of the two people who are the main participants in this argument, FC is the one I think is more likely to be a wolf. Until I see a reasonable argument for someone else being a wolf, I'm gonna maintain that vote.

EDIT: I apologize, I've become rather frustrated with this debate, and as a result, I typed something rather nasty here. I presented it as a fact, but the insulting tone was far thickly laid on, so I feel the need to remove it.

EDIT 2: Bolded for emphasis. Could this in and of itself be a good reason to vote for them? It's still entirely possible that one of them is a wolf. Hell, both of them could be wolves; maybe it's just me, but I think that would be totally devious. But back on track: whether to just end the conversation or to take out a possible wolf, it might still make sense to the voters to maintain their current votes.

[Aventine]

@Sprig: fair enough. I will join you on Legato. I still suspect Ramsus is a wolf trying to get FC lynched by peoples' paranoia about his reputation (and thus save the wolves from needing to kill him themselves), but it looks like he isn't dying today.

[AvatarVecna]

I disagree. Whatever Ramsus may be, I don't think he's a wolf; he's too loud, too angry, and too experienced. If he were a wolf, he'd at least have tried to be a little more subtle about all of this.

[Aventine]

Refuge in audacity? Yeah, I don't really know how to counter you without descending into a WIFOMish mess.

[AvatarVecna]

Refuge in audacity? Yeah, I don't really know how to counter you without descending into a WIFOMish mess.

Thank you! I just learned a wonderful new term, and it perfectly describes why Werewolf can get so complicated!

[Fleeing Coward]

I disagree. Whatever Ramsus may be, I don't think he's a wolf; he's too loud, too angry, and too experienced. If he were a wolf, he'd at least have tried to be a little more subtle about all of this.

If it was a normal game maybe. But this has never been about whether or not he thinks I'm a wolf or whether or not he is a wolf.

So yeah, let's just hurry up and get this over with so another game can start up and everyone can hope they aren't on my team since the only thing I'm going to focus on is screwing things up for FC.

This is what it's been about. Ramsus can use all the excuses about having valid reasons but it's been about petty revenge since the start.

[Sprig]

I don't really appreciate you joining in on the claim that my logical argument to vote for someone doesn't exist. If you want to argue against it, do so. It's rude to just offhand dismiss it just because someone creating drama about it gives you a convenient excuse.

Edit: I also don't really like you telling people to ignore me under the claim that I will supposedly continue to argue with FC when I said I would ignore him and have already clearly refused to be baited by him thus far.

Edit 2: Or in other words, it's rude of you to put words in my mouth. Especially when they're the exact opposite of the words that just recently came out of it.

Despite my eye glazing over, I have read all your posts I haven't really been able to make sense of what your point is or FC's for that matter. So I can dismiss it out of hand simply because you have not been concise about it.

But rather than letting you reignite this flame war, or worse dragging me into it, let see if one of those voting for FC can concisely sum up your argument. If they can and it has merit, I'll switch my vote.

[AvatarVecna]

Despite my eye glazing over, I have read all your posts I haven't really been able to make sense of what your point is or FC's for that matter. So I can dismiss it out of hand simply because you have not been concise about it.

But rather than letting you reignite this flame war, or worse dragging me into it, let see if one of those voting for FC can concisely sum up your argument. If they can and it has merit, I'll switch my vote.

Other than the explanation FC posted (see above) I can't figure out all of Ramsus' reasoning. I simply have my own: namely, that all of his posts just come across as rather untrustworthy. That killing one or the other would end this and let us get on with the game is a bonus. That said, if both of them are still here next round, this is just going to continue, and the game will be nothing but this day after day. It might be best to end it now, before it derails the game any further.

[Ramsus]

Aventine, what? Why would that be my play as a wolf? That's super likely to backfire as people (like you) love lynching me way more than they like to lynch FC. (From my recollection FC dies early when he does mostly due to night kills. There was I think a short string of early lynches on him for a bit, but otherwise as far as I know he's for some inexplicable reason nearly impossible to lynch early on. Sometimes at all. And I never get why, when I have to constantly deal with people trying to lynch me because, like you, they're absolutely convinced I must be a wolf with not even a scrap of proof for reasons I can't even figure out how make sense to even one person let alone the amount it takes to lynch me.) So like... I'm not gonna say you're trying to paint me as a wolf because you're a wolf or anything because honestly, I'd need more suspiciousness from you for that. It's way more likely it's just because you don't like me at this point unless you do something actually wolfish. What I am gonna say is I would really appreciate it if you didn't treat me like I'm brain-dead. There are a million strategies I could pull as a wolf. Like.... just sitting around quietly and essentially refusing to contribute like a lot of people are getting away with right now. Or... I dunno, anything else that involved less of a headache and verbal abuse and people treating me like my opinions don't count "cuz X" nonsense reason.

For the record though, I'm usually pretty "loud". Except some games I'm not. *shrug*
I tend to argue with whoever decides to argue with me as there's more for people to learn from that and I find it rude to ignore people unless they're just making empty noise or it's very clearly just a drama trap. (Though usually it's both of those when it's either.) Also there's that thing where people will lynch me for any excuse like.... I didn't respond to that one random question I couldn't make sense of and totally forgot. (I can't recall if that's a thing that actually happened. Mostly because I've been lynched for a lot of really really dumb reasons. Would be kinda ok if it came even close to the amount of times I've been lynched for a half-way passable one. It really doesn't though. *sigh*)

Edit: Sprig, that's an interesting request. However it could also be a trap, so no. I'll explain it myself. Also I just told you I don't like people putting words in my mouth, so for that reason too. If you can't make sense of it still, then you can't and you can feel free to go "what that makes no word-things Ramsus" and I'll consider that fair. Or highly suspicious. One of those things for sure.

So to restate for the... uh.... again: My logical reason for voting for FC is based on the fact that Duck, a mason died to a measly three (I think) votes defending FC instead of defending himself. That's pretty weird as Duck should have prioritized defending himself first and other masons should have helped even if that risked eventual exposure earlyish on like say day 4, because that's a lot better than a dead mason day 1. And then FC somehow lives through the night despite what have should been a clear sign to the wolves "HEY THIS GUY HAS A FAIR SHOT OF BEING A MASON" and it being Night 1 and the chances the Baner would decide that they should bane FC because of that and not themselves would be about as low as the wolves could ever hope for it to be. So that introduces a fairly good chance compared to everyone else that the reason FC wasn't killed last night is because he is a wolf. Yes there is the chance the wolves are sub-par planners, paranoid, or asleep behind the wheel and FC is a mason. That seems less likely to me than that he's a wolf though. There's also the chance he's regular town, not that wolves would have any way of knowing that night 1 and take it into account, but if so that doesn't make him the worst person we could lynch. He could be a non-mason power role but... what are the chances a mason would randomly protect him without having any way of knowing that and the wolves would also randomly decide not to kill him? That's pretty small. It still exists, but then I have to wonder why FC hasn't made even a soft role claim to save his bacon rather than throw really silly accusations my way or just tried to force the Legato wagon to gain more steam which would be way easier. There's also the chance that the wolves decided it was ok to leave FC alone, even figuring he had a good chance of being a mason, and that we'd lynch him today. Note that THIS proposed idea is pretty crazy. It requires the masons failing to save FC, people doing ANYTHING predictably on day 2 (pretty friggin rare in my opinion), and having to pretty much remain as uninvolved in that result as possible as if they fail or succeed and were too involved it could risk revealing them. A risk that is just flat out not worth the wolves trying to get us to lynch one specific person who would be harder to get lynched than just about anyone else at a time where the wolves have no real fear of being lynched outside of a fluke. (Seriously, how many wolves get lynched day 2 without the wolves themselves totally screwing up?) So out of all those chances, the most likely ones to me are that FC is a wolf or FC is a powerless towny and the wolves behaved in a really strange way. All the other options are too strange or too unlikely for me to bet on. Still all things considered I'm only putting the chances of FC being a wolf at like 35%. But that's still way higher than any odds on anyone else I can name being a wolf and I can't see any reason right now to go for someone I know is less likely to be a wolf than that.

Maybe this version was a little more clear than my others, but they all more or less said the same and I'm not sure how any time I said it can seriously be argued to have not been a logical argument or not have been understandable enough to get the general idea. {scrubbed}

[Fleeing Coward]

From my recollection FC dies early when he does mostly due to night kills. There was I think a short string of early lynches on him for a bit, but otherwise as far as I know he's for some inexplicable reason nearly impossible to lynch early on. Sometimes at all.

2 of my last 4 games as town, I've been lynched day 1 twice. The other 2 times - once I had to claim mason to survive early lynch, the other time I basically said nothing because that literally is the only way I can normally survive the early game. Stop spreading lies about me been impossible to lynch and always dying early to night kills.

Every time I make any kind of noise as a villager, people pile on me because they don't trust me, they don't need a valid reason, that's good enough by itself as far as they're concerned. In fact I can't remember one occasion where the wolves have killed me early in well over a year because it's common knowledge that sooner or later people are going to wagon on me.

Edit:
Pineapple (Baner): Heavy, sharp and bitter, she’s not going to let those Bad Apples push her around. She uses her lack of pushability to protect her fellow Apples. Once per night, she can choose a player to protect, including herself; attacks against that target fail. If the Pineapple succeeds in blocking a kill, she will be voided the next night. Wins as an ordinary Apple would.

This is why even if I were a power role I wouldn't soft claim in thread. Claiming in thread is the equivalent of signing up to die in 2 night phases and I hope the other power roles realise this.

[Ramsus]

Ok I'll actually respond to that because I'm gonna trust FC knows what he's talking about as far as his deaths go way better than I do. I apologize for any inaccuracy there. I did say in my recollection and wasn't trying to imply it was any kind of solid fact. It's very likely that was just my memory playing tricks on me by giving more priority to notable cases than not particularly memorable ones. Again, my apologies.

Edit: Ok, what the hell FC. If that's not a fake claim why the heck didn't you make that claim way earlier in this day and throw all this bull at me? You aren't in any danger from the wolves in this game as the baner unless you don't claim. They don't have a voider. Unless one of the neutrals they could not possibly have teamed up with yet can void. And why would neutrals pick wolves' side if the Baner establishes a network early? Seriously.....wtf. So many levels. I have no words if that's not a fake claim. Just...argh. You. bad. So much. Just... argh. Why did you... argh. Oh, missed the part about the baner getting voided on a successful bane. Still your behavior is highly irritating all considered if it's true, but it's less completely awful in every possible way.

Note: I am soooooo not ruling out the chances of that being a fake claim mind you. You don't have any reason not to make it right now.

Additional note: I may just quit the game if FC is actually the baner and I have to continue putting up with him claiming I'm a wolf for completely insane reasons that would never be even considered if they were being said about anyone else. I hope other people can put themselves in my shoes for a second and imagine how little fun that would be.

Edit 2: And yeah, I'm not changing my vote. I'm betting on the, let's call it 50/50 even though it totally isn't, chance that's a fake claim. There's very little reason for me not to because what treatment can I expect if FC doesn't get lynched and is the baner (or at least people believe he is)? Oh right, getting lynched for a stupid reason and more verbal abuse, completely ignoring that I'm the only person who actually contributed any real logic today. Yeah, I wouldn't want to continue playing the game being treated that way anyway so that's not much of a punishment for me at this point.

Edit 3: Also, even if true, really dang weird the wolves didn't try to kill him last night.
Edit 5: Blargh, wasn't actually a claim. Please disregard everyone. Ugh.

Edit 4: Oh and once again. FC could you please stop it with the friggin character attacks?

[Fleeing Coward]

There is no claim there. I was just pointing out to you the reason why I wouldn't soft claim if I were a power role since you're saying that the fact I didn't even soft claim is a reason for why I'm probably not a power role.

Edit: I think you need to read the baner role again since that's where your misunderstanding came from. No power role can claim in this game because anyone who does claim is guaranteed to die in 2 nights since the baner is voided after the first successful bane.

Edit 2: Your logic is that I'm more likely to be a wolf because I didn't die last night which makes it more likely that I'm a wolf but as I've pointed out, it should be common knowledge by now that people like lynching me despite what you said. The risk v reward of killing me is nowhere close to as high as you make it out to be since apart from the fact that I was the most obvious bane target if the baner didn't bane themselves, the wolves gain little from killing me even if I were a mason since apart from the fact that the mason apples know another apple, since 1 died, they're all out there looking out for themselves since they now have the same win condition as an ordinary apple.

I've been saying it all along that you have never made a valid logical case against me and you even refused to elaborate on it until someone else asked you. As far as I'm concerned you're doing this out of sheer spite as for the majority of the game you never bothered to explain your reasoning and went on a character assassination spree by making me look like the bad guy.

[Ramsus]

Oh, that was super unclear. You might want to make it more clear lest someone accuse you of trying to trick people into thinking you did claim. Uh... yeah, carrying on as was then.

Edit: Ok, going to sleep now.
So please guys who want me lynched, take this opportunity while I can't respond to make up crazy reasons to lynch me that wouldn't work against anyone else. (Note: That was (bitter) sarcasm. And to note, I'm absolutely certain that one was a real example of a dumb way I've gotten lynched. I don't know who I'm saying this to. AvatarVecna? I dunno. Whatever. The more you know is half the battle or something like that.)

[sphazre]

I'm voting for FC because I think they might be a wolf and because it would end this. Of the two people who are the main participants in this argument, FC is the one I think is more likely to be a wolf. Until I see a reasonable argument for someone else being a wolf, I'm gonna maintain that vote.

EDIT: I apologize, I've become rather frustrated with this debate, and as a result, I typed something rather nasty here. I presented it as a fact, but the insulting tone was far thickly laid on, so I feel the need to remove it.

EDIT 2: Bolded for emphasis. Could this in and of itself be a good reason to vote for them? It's still entirely possible that one of them is a wolf. Hell, both of them could be wolves; maybe it's just me, but I think that would be totally devious. But back on track: whether to just end the conversation or to take out a possible wolf, it might still make sense to the voters to maintain their current votes.

Have to disagree here. If FC being manipulative is standard behavior, then I'd panic more over him suddenly being nice/quiet. Without any other information to go by, we're just penalising someone for playing differently.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh, that was super unclear. You might want to make it more clear lest someone accuse you of trying to trick people into thinking you did claim. Uh... yeah, carrying on as was then.

Edit: Ok, going to sleep now.
So please guys who want me lynched, take this opportunity while I can't respond to make up crazy reasons to lynch me that wouldn't work against anyone else. (Note: That was (bitter) sarcasm. And to note, I'm absolutely certain that one was a real example of a dumb way I've gotten lynched. I don't know who I'm saying this to. AvatarVecna? I dunno. Whatever. The more you know is half the battle or something like that.)

Accusing me of using faulty logic to lynch you?! I'll see you hanged for that!

Seriously, though, I think I'm like the last person in the conversation (besides you) who's trying to get you lynched. WTF.

Have a good rest, Ramsus. And hey, when you wake up, there's bound to be another 30 comments calling for your head. Fun times, right?

[Fleeing Coward]

Am I really the only one that thinks Ramsus making up stories about me editing my posts to be significantly different than what he replied to be a wolf making a stupid mistake trying to frame me?

[AvatarVecna]

Am I really the only one that thinks Ramsus making up stories about me editing my posts to be significantly different than what he replied to be a wolf making a stupid mistake trying to frame me?

I think it's more a case of "he saw you somehow edited your post and assumed that your edit was centered around screwing with him" than a case of "the wolf in sheep's clothing made a mistake and is trying to shout misdirection loud enough that people don't realize it". It was an honest mistake, but it's not necessarily a sign of wolf-hood.

[Fleeing Coward]

I removed a s to turn a word into the singular form. I don't see how it can be an honest mistake rather than a deliberate attempt to frame me when he accused me then used a flimsy excuse to cover up the mistake when I pointed out how easy it is for someone to confirm that I changed basically nothing.

Edit: Also going to sleep now. Think it's safe to do so now that Ramsus isn't around to continue my character assassination until he wakes up.

[Ionbound]

Oh good. Since both of them are asleep, I can actually make a point about why I want to vote for FC without it getting dragged into a flame war.

Specifically, FC, from day 1, responded to a single vote with what boils down to an emotional argument, trying to discredit me. This is something that, in the past, has gotten me lynched very early on, and I see no reason that, if the shoe is on the other foot, to let up. Especially if FC really is a wolf, and, to me, his actions and responses are really seeming ever more wolfish.

[Vwulf DeMarcus]

Swapping to [COLOR="#FF0000"]Legato Endless[/COLOR] because I agree that this seems to be devolving into a flame war between Ramsus and FC now. I also find it slightly odd at first glance that Legato hasn't posted since we all switched to him.

Edit: Of course, people live in different time zones and he might just have been asleep.

[Ramsus]

@firedaemon: 1) I thought I'd commented on that at some point a bit, but maybe I didn't really go into it? Either way, I totally agree with you about what you said.

2) What part of what you said doesn't apply to how he's been treating me as well? Don't you think it would be in your best interests if you want people to listen to you about someone intentionally flaming you for a sleazy in-game advantage that you shouldn't dismiss things I've been saying by labeling it "flame war"? This is gonna come out harsher than I want it to but, that's a pretty clear case of double standards man.

@AvatarVecna: You misunderstood what parts I was aiming at you. I just meant I felt like you were the person, if anyone in particular was, who I was telling about my past experiences here.

@Vwulf DeMarcus: Thank you for basically saying you haven't even bothered to read my last several posts. You want me to show you the same courtesy later on when you have something to say? (If that's not true of course feel free to correct me and I'll apologize for being oversensitive. Assuming of course you provide an explanation for how you boil down, for example, my response to Sprig as "flame war".)

Edit: I'd also like to point out to people who might not know this or aren't remembering it, wolves have been known to create drama to effectively silence someone saying things they don't like by trying to make people see it as a flame war and thus ignore what's actually being said. So you should be very very careful when you start not really (or at all) reading someone's posts or when someone claims you should ignore what someone is saying "because it's just a flame war" or something like that. It's proven to be a very easy way to manipulate people into doing something that as far as I know has never been good for town.

[Ionbound]

Short version: I feel like you're doing the right thing for the wrong reason, if that makes sense. FC is quite wolfish, but I don't want to support you because I don't like your arguments.

[Ramsus]

You don't like my arguments with FC that I stopped doing a while before people starting trying to use them as an excuse to dismiss what I'm saying or you don't like the logical argument I presented for why FC is more likely a wolf than anyone else is as far as we know? If it's the later.... uh why?

Edit: Or did you mean my "FC ruins fun" argument? Because that was never meant for anything past day 1 as by day 2 we need better reasons because we have any information at all.

[Penguinator]

Update:

Quick overview of today:
Votes:
FC - Ramsus, AvatarVecna, firedaemon33
Ramsus - FC
Legato Endless - Sprig, Rain Dragon, sphazre, Aventine, Vwulf DeMarcus
Tanar Aerdoth - Penguinator, ThePhantom

Players who have not posted today:
Legato Endless
braveheart

-Tanar Aerdoth has a Schrodinger's vote.

I'm going to throw out there once again that Legato Endless hasn't actually said anything. Does anyone know if he has said anything about being absent? It doesn't seem entirely fair to throw him under the bus if he can't defend himself. He currently has more than 1/3 of the votes of the living players. I think that's enough for the time being. I will also point out that voting for Legato Endless "because he's not Ramsus or Fleeing Coward" is hardly valid reasoning.

- - - Updated - - -

I also find it slightly odd at first glance that Legato hasn't posted since we all switched to him.

As far as I can tell, the last activity from Legato Endless came at 13:46 EST yesterday. At this time, he had a single vote from Sprig. Under that circumstance, I could understand not rushing to defend himself.

[Tris]

Well, he did post yesterday in another thread. ninja'd

@Ramsus: I think the reason people haven't noticed your more logical argument for FC being a wolf is that they see the large walls of text a lot of which consists of getting upset at FC and miss the actual argument.

Also, did FC ever respond to the logical argument. Parts of Ramsus and FC's conversation is confusing to me and I may have missed it.

[Penguinator]

Well, he did post yesterday in another thread.

Yes, and I addressed that. He had one vote at that time. If he even looked at this thread, he probably didn't think it was going to escalate.

[braveheart]

Sorry I have not posted for a while, I es unavailable at all yesterday, and had to read a number of massive walls of text to get caught up, now that I am I believe that the FC Ramsus argument shows one of then to be a wolf, however I cannot be sure of which, that Beeing said, it seems that legato is doomed unless he defends himself. Seeing a 50/50 shot is probably better odds than finding the bad apples in the rest though so I will vote for FC because out if the two my gut says it him

[Sprig]

Sorry I have not posted for a while, I es unavailable at all yesterday, and had to read a number of massive walls of text to get caught up, now that I am I believe that the FC Ramsus argument shows one of then to be a wolf, however I cannot be sure of which, that Beeing said, it seems that legato is doomed unless he defends himself. Seeing a 50/50 shot is probably better odds than finding the bad apples in the rest though so I will vote for FC because out if the two my gut says it him

Hmmmm.. It doesn't have to be one of them is wolf and you must vote for 1 or the other. It is equally true that they could both be wolf or both village.

So I don't buy it when you say the 'argument shows one of then to be a wolf' because this is false.

- - - Updated - - -

Just an update - I had a Convo in private with Ramsus, in regards to his accusation. The short version is I understand how he has come to his conclusion, I just think there is a couple of flaws in terms of his read on how the lynch on Duck999 played out. It is not that he dismissed all possibilities but rather he gives weight to some possible outcomes/reasons than I would. If that makes sense?

I did say I would change my vote if his point could be articulated concisely but that was not the purpose of that request. I didn't think those that were agreeing with him on voting for FC actually knew or could articulate what they were agreeing with. It was to test their vote rather than Ramsus.

The only thing of note from this thread and my conversation which I find odd is his paranoia about being lynched. I haven't see any indication that people suspect he is wolf other than Aventine earlier accusation. (aside from FC). That paranoid is unjustified imo. If I was him I would be more worried about being night killed.

[braveheart]

That's just how I read the argument you don't have to agree with me, but it is too easy to lie through this medium to take anyone's words at face value