Apple WW

[Internet Flea]

Now, as to the game state. The last couple of days have been kind of ugly for reasons I believe are not game-related, and while I hope we've gotten past the worst of it, I agree with this:

So I'm not sure if you or anyone else can fairly complain when grudges and drama show up where you don't want it to when you take no measures to prevent it.

So with that in mind, at the start of Day 3 I will be implementing Internet Flea's rule of Anti-Meta. (Because everyone knows meta is only really problematic on Day 3 )

Any reference to activity outside of this game, i.e. situations in past games, or player behavior or personality traits seen in other games or outside of games, will earn you a vote toward lynching. This includes quoting or debating other people's meta arguments, which means players should be careful in quoting from the last couple of days. If you base your vote or action on meta reasoning after Day 3, don't explain yourself.

It probably won't actually help, but hopefully we've reached a point where it doesn't need to anyway.

I put this off until the end of the Phase because I didn't want to get involved halfway through a Day. However, if I think the tone of the game is not conducive to fun I will make further changes without warning, in the interest of improving it.

Please let me know if you have any concerns (or suggestions).

[Aventine]

I worry that this is too heavy-handed. I don't think the problem is meta-gaming so much as meta-grudges. "Person A usually acts like X when they are town, but here they are doing Y. Thus I suspect they might be a wolf" is completely meta, but doesn't seem to me to be necessarily problematic. The problem in this game is from "Person A tried to get me lynched for reasons I don't like in another game, so I am going to try to get them lynched here." So meta that ignores the current game and situation is bad, but meta that takes it into account and isn't overly clouded by past biases seems fine to me.

I don't have any better ideas. I just feel like there should be one.

[Ramsus]

I'm not sure how that'll work out since I'm 99% sure FC's been milking the drama intentionally for whatever it is is his desired effect. (I'm still not sure why he's felt the need to go quite so far with it as he has though.)

Also, kinda odd timing since I long ago stopped responding to him for the most part and I think Aventine and I have more or less gotten our obligatory "no YOU bad!" out of the way. Although I guess I can't say for sure how anyone aside from myself will behave. Of course I'm not sure how you'd prove Aventine (or myself) would be antagonistic with each other because meta-reasons rather than in-game ones.

And I'm gonna note that you're basically crippling our ability to play the game if we can't say "X person seems like maybe they're a wolf to me because I've seen them play this way as a wolf" and such.

So overall I feel like you're mostly just going to wind up randomly (and probably unfairly, unless you're psychic and never miss anything) punishing people and screwing up the game balance while doing little to solve problems that are for the most part now only being caused by a single person who refuses to be civil. And I think the forum has the tools to deal with that problem. (Not to my personal standards of resolving problems, but at least it's a less screwing up the game itself solution.)

[Internet Flea]

I agree, it's not designed to prevent grudges; it was actually an idea I had to avoid discouraging new players in the early Days of a game. I'm using it now because I don't have any more effective ideas, apart from telling people they can't be aggressive.

[Ramsus]

Hmmm what's the phrase? This sounds like a solution that causes more problems than the problem it's aiming to fix.

Edit: Actually it occurs to me that the inability to directly discuss the events of the previous days massively cripples town given that so far almost every single person seems to need to be personally convinced of anything to even recognize an argument can possibly have validity of any kind and in some cases that it even exists and in each case this requires re-phrasing or quotes. This change almost makes the game completely unplayable and you may as well just declare the wolf team wins right now.
Edit4: I feel I need to clarify that I wasn't being over-dramatic there. If you look at the effects your proposals will have on the game, all of them are a massive boon for the wolf team.

Edit 2: So I propose an alternate solution. How about you do what mods should do (but almost never do anywhere on the internet) and just directly and privately approach people doing anything you're not cool with and ask them to stop and discuss the issue with them if they want to argue with you why they should be allowed to do whatever? And if need be, when it's truly called for, make a post here stating that you don't want people to do X thing. (In these cases this should be something reasonable to ask people to not do.) I know that's more work, but that's better than ruining the game you decided you wanted to run isn't it?

Edit 3: Ok yeah, I realize I in a very technical way just suggested you break the "don't try to behave like a mod if you're not a mod" rule, but in a different technicality every narrator/GM is accepted to be a mod of their own game within the rules. Also the mods absolutely do not in any way behave in the way I just suggested so one could make the highly technical argument that it wouldn't be behaving like a mod since they don't behave that way (even if they should if they wanted to do a proper job).

[Fleeing Coward]

Yeah, this is going badly. Should have at least claimed privately to some people if you didn't want to do it publicly.

- - - Updated - - -

I've got to agree here that is abit too heavy handed. Meta gaming does have it's place especially in terms of analysing how player's behaviour is different from their normal behaviour and I'm not sure how you'd even enforce PM discussions on metagaming.

Edit: nvm the last part, need to read the rules better next time

[Count Dingdong]

Spoiler: Re: Anti-Meta

Show

It is extremely difficult to avoid meta, especially when a lot of analysis consists of comparing people's play to how they played in the past. Even if you don't compare players to how they themselves played in the past, you might compare them to other people's gameplay or refer to other games where a certain strategy was used. Meta is part of the game.

That said, arguments that go on for pages at a time and don't lead to any new material just serve to clutter the pages and prevent further discussion from taking place. If it becomes a problem, the mod/GM/narrator should step in privately. I have had to do this in games before. I've had to tell people to step back and calm down. Talk to both sides of the argument, not just one, and tell them that they've made their argument and should move on. Let others talk, and talk to others.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds as a ghost, but I felt I should offer my opinion, since similar situations have happened in my games.

[AvatarVecna]

While we're in our nightly interlude, I'd like to point out my Shadowrun Werewolf game. It's apparently already collecting all of this game's dead people, so we may as well add in the living people. Anyone interested?

[Internet Flea]

Alright, I won't apply the Anti-Meta rule, though my warning stands; if I think events are making the game unfun, I'll step in and start changing things. I'll try not to be too heavy-handed about it, but my hands are made of concrete so it'll probably end up that way.

[Ramsus]

and I'm not sure how you'd even enforce PM discussions on metagaming.

Edit: nvm the last part, need to read the rules better next time

Hmmm, ok so does this read like to anyone else that FC hasn't been in PM contact, or at least not with anyone who knows the rules of PM contact for this game?

If yes, then this following bit should be interesting. (If no... what?) In his PMs with me, which Sprig mentioned earlier if you may recall, Sprig told me that he'd been in contact with FC since the start of this day (meaning day 2). As an interesting note at the time I had forgotten that rule (even though looking back Logic reminded us of it a couple days earlier), but Sprig hadn't in his first contact with me. Which means if Sprig was talking to FC via PM, it would be impossible for FC not to be aware of that rule by now. (As a note, Sprig did forget to forward one PM between us to the narrators and I wound up doing that myself in my reply to him. Still I can't imagine if he conversed with FC more than once that he forgot every time. And I imagine the narrators would have poked FC about it since they would know of those exchanges from my and Sprig's exchanges.) So the question is then, how could FC and Sprig be in contact if they weren't using PMs?

[Sprig]

Hmmm, ok so does this read like to anyone else that FC hasn't been in PM contact, or at least not with anyone who knows the rules of PM contact for this game?

If yes, then this following bit should be interesting. (If no... what?) In his PMs with me, which Sprig mentioned earlier if you may recall, Sprig told me that he'd been in contact with FC since the start of this day (meaning day 2). As an interesting note at the time I had forgotten that rule (even though looking back Logic reminded us of it a couple days earlier), but Sprig hadn't in his first contact with me. Which means if Sprig was talking to FC via PM, it would be impossible for FC not to be aware of that rule by now. (As a note, Sprig did forget to forward one PM between us to the narrators and I wound up doing that myself in my reply to him. Still I can't imagine if he conversed with FC more than once that he forgot every time. And I imagine the narrators would have poked FC about it since they would know of those exchanges from my and Sprig's exchanges.) So the question is then, how could FC and Sprig be in contact if they weren't using PMs?

Snapchat !!!

[Ramsus]

I assume that's another chatty thing? Not sure how the PMing rules would fail to apply to that too. Also not sure why you'd use PMs for me and something else for FC.

[Sprig]

:Sigh: I suppose for the joke to work, you have to know what Snapchat is.

[Fleeing Coward]

No idea if IF can confirm this but I only forwarded my PMs during this phase after IF reminded me that the narrators need to see all PMs.

[Internet Flea]

Another night, another victim.
Another victim, another step closer.

You won't have it that easy.

The apple stood silhouetted in the kitchen light, holding his ground against the advancing bad apples.

I think I know this apple.
Do you?
He does.
It's the one they call The Infinite Cat.
Why do they call him that?
Nobody calls me that.

The apple didn't have time to react as the bad apple revealed his flamethrower and fired.

Not anymore, they won't.

Legato Endless was fried by the Bad Apples. He was a Good Apple and a Yellow Apple.
Day 3 begins now and ends in roughly 48 hours.

[Legato Endless]

Heh, I figured that was coming after yesterday..

Good luck town.

[Fleeing Coward]

Rain Dragon. The late wagon could have just as easily gone in that direction yesterday but it drew virtually no interest outside of a couple of confirmed by death good apples.

[Sprig]

Rain Dragon. The late wagon could have just as easily gone in that direction yesterday but it drew virtually no interest outside of a couple of confirmed by death good apples.

Yup, hence my annoyance at Tanar (Vwulf DeMarcus & sphazre too) but I'll put my hand up and say 'mea culpa', I should have pm'd tanar and given him the option. Coulda shoulda woulda but didn't :(

- - -

Kill choice so far has been interesting. It speaks of a certain cunning that if I had a scry of the non-color type I would be scanning Penguin, FC and Aventine. Penguin I probably would have done last night anyway out of principle I think.

- - -

Yesterday there was a whole lot of I'm voting for 'X' because of what 'Y' said. Which is where we should primarily focus our attentions on. But for me, the non vote of Vwulf DeMarcus is most worthy of my vote for the moment.

[Ionbound]

Voting for Penguinator, mostly because from yesterday it seems like he started the wagon on Tanar and Legato, who are both dead now.

[Ramsus]

Well I'm voting for Fleeing Coward again for all of yesterday's reasons plus what happened there during the night. And of course he and Sprig were both on Tanar's wagon and I'm fairly certain both of them have enough experience to know it was a bad wagon that we never should have been pursuing in the first place.

Edit: We also want to look hard at anyone who jumped from Legato's wagon to Tanar's. Especially if FC flips wolf. (Assuming it doesn't take another 20 reasons why we should lynch him for people to realize that if all that stuff was stacked against anyone else there would be no chance they weren't getting lynched.)

[braveheart]

Looking at who we were considering to lynch "yesterday", there were 3 people who we considered most thoroughly, and they were FC, Tanar, and legato. of these 3, 2 are dead leaving fleeing coward. Rain dragon was the fourth choice, but I don't think he ever got beyond 2 votes. If we consider that at least one of wolves most likely voted for legato then switched to Tanar, we should consider who they are. Also ThePhantom was the first person to vote Tanar.

I'm going to vote FC again because I still think he is likely a wolf, was in our top 3 "yesterday" and has survived a night with the Pineapple dead.

[Vwulf DeMarcus]

I non voted because as I had stated, I didn't want to land on either bandwagon. (Also, I had had a long day and didn't want to think very much.) However, I hadn't been paying attention to how long the day was going to last and it ended while I was at school before I got a chance to change my vote. So now I'm going to stick solidly on Fleeing Coward.

[Fleeing Coward]

The whole "stacked case" Ramsus is pointing out is wolves havn't killed me yet.
After what happened yesterday, I'd like anyone who honestly thinks the wolves would kill me last night to put up their hand.

- - - Updated - - -

Also look who was killed. How stupid would I have to be to kill someone who was defending me last night.
If I was wolf, Ramsus would be dead night 1.

[AvatarVecna]

The whole "stacked case" Ramsus is pointing out is wolves havn't killed me yet.
After what happened yesterday, I'd like anyone who honestly thinks the wolves would kill me last night to put up their hand.

- - - Updated - - -

Also look who was killed. How stupid would I have to be to kill someone who was defending me last night.
If I was wolf, Ramsus would be dead night 1.

That's just what a wolf would want us to think!!! Seriously, though, I'm not sure what to think. I suppose it's possible that you're a wolf who's playing some sort of triple-fake out game or something, and considering your reputation, I'm not ignoring the possibility, but it seems...doubtful. Also, are you really arguing that Ramsus being alive means you can't be a wolf, since he's suspected you since forever? I mean, I take Ramsus' arguments seriously...mostly...but I didn't think you did, and I didn't think you thought anyone else did.

...unless that what you wanted me to think you thought they thought! Truly you are a master of misdirection!

[Sprig]

I would say it points at FC being set up. A triple bluff is hard to pull off. And there was never any chance he was going to be killed at night. Zip, Nadda, Zero! You never kill the alternative to a wagon at night if you are wolf!


That fact that wvulf, braveheart & ramsus are completely ignoring this likelyhood and ignoring that there were numerous alternative leads to follow after yesterday speaks rather strongly to their chances of being wolf.

- - - Updated - - -

I non voted because as I had stated, I didn't want to land on either bandwagon. (Also, I had had a long day and didn't want to think very much.) However, I hadn't been paying attention to how long the day was going to last and it ended while I was at school before I got a chance to change my vote. So now I'm going to stick solidly on Fleeing Coward.

This is utterly anti-village behavior. The second of such actions in two days. Well done!

Do you know who's scared of voting. Wolves. That's why you see them so often act as lurkers. As to the second part, Solidly aye. Solidly with no justification. That's interestingly wolfy of you.

No vote should be solid as there is still another 10 players to make votes and respond to accusations and other information as it become available. If you think being solid is a way to make up for not voting yesterday and make you look innocent you better think again. But too late now.

[braveheart]

Personally I think that there is no way that everyone was wrong "yesterday" so I will hold to my belief that if we know that 2 of the favored choices were village then then the last remaining choices (rain dragon and FC) are more likely, since I was already suspicious of FC that only served to increase my suspicion of him.

[Sprig]

Personally I think that there is no way that everyone was wrong "yesterday" so I will hold to my belief that if we know that 2 of the favored choices were village then then the last remaining choices (rain dragon and FC) are more likely, since I was already suspicious of FC that only served to increase my suspicion of him.

And what exactly do you find suspicious?

[Ramsus]

So Sprig, are you intentionally or unintentionally trying to mislead town? Because if anyone cares to look back, I specifically addressed the possibilities the wolves are setting FC up. Multiple times in fact. And while I do find it to be a feasible occurrence, I'm not placing my bets on it while we have no better leads as all our best reasons to lynch anyone who isn't FC also apply to FC.

I also don't think anyone (or at least not I) was saying we think the wolves totally would have killed FC last night if he wasn't a wolf. It certainly would be better for wolves to leave FC alone by that point if not a wolf. Half because he'd be drawing attention away from them, but also because he's not providing any useful analysis and actually helping to encourage people behaving in a "logic, smogic" manner where town winds up about as much a threat to the wolves as would a wet paper towel.

As for why I'm alive if FC is a wolf, it's not like one wolf can veto the rest of the wolves on who to kill. Also I don't seriously believe FC would kill me first if he thought he could instead manipulate events to a point where town was never willing to lynch him due to drama. And as people can look back and see, he made a whole lot more drama happen than was necessary under any circumstance.

We also have the various instances where he used very poor logic repeatedly and in general just behaved in a very anti-town manner.

And he was on Tanar's wagon (and at this point we can't rule out that the wolves had scried him unlike with Duck, even if it's a bit unlikely). And one of the things Tanar said last was that he found FC suspicious.

And of course there was that thing last night and I still really don't buy the given excuse. (Well, it's not that it's impossible, it's just that there's no way a wolf wouldn't say exactly what FC did and there's no way to actually prove anything there. The only thing we can do is analyze Sprig's interactions with myself and FC and decide if we think there really is a good chance FC managed to not know he needed to forward PMs to Internet Flea & Logic (when his PM box isn't full) while sending/receiving PMs from Sprig who clearly did know.)

But still, sure there is some kind of chance FC could be town. As far as I can tell it's now a smaller chance than him being a wolf though. Also lynching him will at least tell us something about Sprig's alignment and at the absolute least will remove a huge distraction from more analytical discussions about other players.

[sphazre]

Meta question: Why are PMs forwarded to narrators?

[Fleeing Coward]

So with no new evidence, I've suddenly gone from 35% wolf to over 50% wolf in Ramsus' books.

As for been a distraction, Ramsus is the only one trying to make me a distraction. I'd suggest everyone just ignores Ramsus as Sprig suggested before until he provides something new to the discussion since it's pretty obvious by now he only has one thing on his mind

If you're voting for me because you reached the conclusion that I'm more likely to be a wolf, vote for me.
If you're voting for me because you think Ramsus has provided any sort of real argument why I'm a wolf, I suggest you take another look at his posts and you'll realise just how much real content he has provided to this game.