Getting back at the CN Rogue

[Diachronos]

A little bit of background: The party got to around level 7-8 over a couple months' worth of once-a-week sessions. During that time, the party's Chaotic Neutral Rogue has done a bit of thieving and lone-wolfing in dungeons to bolster his wealth, putting him a bit above the rest of the party. Before, it wasn't too much of a problem, as two of the party members (a damage-focused Swashbuckler and a werewolf Bloodrager) pretty much carried us through most of the campaign so far. The rest of us were getting shafted for loot, but it didn't leave us in too much of a bad spot.

My character was also a melee damage-dealer, and I'd taken a special ability for my Brawler that gave the character +2 Strength for every 5 points of damage she'd taken (usable for a number of rounds per day equal to what a Barbarian or Bloodrager would have for their rage ability). It could have turned out really well... except my character never got hurt because the DM focused on the Bloodrager and the Swashbuckler because they were the most immediate threat in any fight, and they usually killed everything before I could get more than one round of attacks in. The only fight where I really contributed was against a black pudding because the other two couldn't hurt it (and our only real caster was a cleric of Calistria, so she used a whip...), and I actually ended up watching one of the last fights because the two GORGONS we were fighting didn't pose a threat to the Swashbuckler and Bloodrager.
I decided to swap out to a new character, and settled on a vampire Arcanist (I already had an idea for the character from a text-based RP I was in, so that made things easier) who turned out to be the noble that the party was transporting for a funeral. The Swashbuckler and Bloodrager ended up switching out their characters as well to give the rest of the party a chance to actually do something in fights, so we now also have a cavalier/fighter guard captain and a cleric/sorceror obsessed with entropy.

With that out of the way, on to the main issue: the DM, after realizing that we were FAR below the WBL that we should have been at, decided to throw us some cash in the form of 10 +1 weapons (carried by 10 skeletal champions). Most of the party had had to leave for real-life reasons by then, but between a postive-energy-channeling cleric and a vampire caster with 21 AC who gives precisely 0 f***s about being hit with minor magic weapons we dealt with them fairly easily. The weapons were stored in my character's coffin until we got to town. The Rogue, having only a rapier, a longbow, and a shadow (from prestiging into Shadowdancer), decided to stay back because he "couldn't do anything against the skeletons."
Fast forward to the next town. We stop for the night, then the next day find out that the Rogue had taken all 10 of the weapons, sold them, and bought himself new armor with the money.
This is the same Rogue who, despite being the highest level party member with the departure of the Swashbuckler and the Bloodrager, did precisely jack-s*** in the fight that got us all of those weapons. To top it all off, he "justified" his actions at the end of the session by pointing out that the original cleric never showed interest in loot, that the cavalier and second cleric were "tag-alongs," and that my arcanist was effectively "cargo" because the party's current job was to transport my body.
Seriously, this situation is so infuriating that I'm having a hard time relating this story without breaking GitP's no-swearing rules.

Out of all of us, only myself, the Cleric of Calistria, the Cavalier, the gestalt Cleric/Sorcerer, and the DM are aware of what's happened. The Cavalier, gestalt character, and me all want to knock the Rogue down several pegs. And that's why I've turned to these forums.
Petty? Maybe. But I challenge anybody to not be angry after having a large stash, meant to bring the party's gear up to where it should be and that would've greatly benefited 3 characters who just came in at level 1, stolen by the highest-level party member and then having the guy try to justify what he did.

We already have a few ideas:

• Have him arrested for theft and graverobbing (the second technically being true)
• Find a way to destroy his magic items (will probably have to wait until later levels)
• Intentionally "fail" to craft a bag of holding successfully, and give sell him the resulting bag of devouring
• Sell him the magic items my arcanist will be crafting at inflated prices
• Inscribe the scrolls of repair undead that I've crafted with Explosive Rune spells, then sell them to him

... but I'm hoping for more. If it helps, he's currently level 7, with 5 gestalted levels in Rogue and Fighter and 2 levels in Shadowdancer.

[SowZ]

This seems more an issue to discuss with the DM, honestly. I doubt anything you can do in game is going to change the game in a satisfying enough way.

[Diachronos]

This seems more an issue to discuss with the DM, honestly. I doubt anything you can do in game is going to change the game in a satisfying enough way.

The DM's the one who said I can intentionally make a bag of devouring. He's also aware of the situation, but in his defense he can't really do anything without either "playing favorites" by only giving things to the rest of the party or by specifically targeting the rogue.

[SowZ]

The DM's the one who said I can intentionally make a bag of devouring. He's also aware of the situation, but in his defense he can't really do anything without either "playing favorites" by only giving things to the rest of the party or by specifically targeting the rogue.

If all the players are equally frustrated, let the DM know that your characters are all going to kick the rogue out of the party if things do not change immediately. Honestly, whenever a player tries to justify with any variation of, "This is what my player would do," you can respond with, "And my player would have no in character reason to ever travel with this person." If the entire group kicks his character out, the DM will have to follow your group. The player will be forced to make a character that can be a team player if he wants his new character to be accepted into the group.

You should probably give the player a chance by telling him that this will happen unless he immediately distributes loot evenly and stops playing disruptively. Yes, he is playing his character. More than likely, the rest of you are not playing your character's by traveling with such an amoral thief. The sword this thief player is wielding cuts both ways.

If the DM tries to force your characters to accept him in the group, ask the DM why he didn't force equitable distribution if he isn't against DM fiating things.

[Megaduck]

The DM's the one who said I can intentionally make a bag of devouring. He's also aware of the situation, but in his defense he can't really do anything without either "playing favorites" by only giving things to the rest of the party or by specifically targeting the rogue.

I'm sorry I believe you are misunderstanding SowZ's point.

This is not a game balance problem, it's a group dynamics problem. Your fellow players are doing things that made you angry and from your story you are doing things that make your fellow players angry.

This is not the time to "Get Back" at anyone. If it was in character and all the players agreed and were having fun that would be one thing. But this is one player in the game trying to hurt another player in the game.

This never ends well.

All that will happen is they will be angry at you for hurting them and will try to "Get Back" at you. Cycle of revenge and you're not going to be fellow players much longer.

You should sit down with your group and outline your problems. Your first character didn't work out so you tried to roll a new character but that isn't working out. Ask them for help, what problems they are having, and what you can all do so you all have fun.

[SowZ]

I'm sorry I believe you are misunderstanding SowZ's point.

This is not a game balance problem, it's a group dynamics problem. Your fellow players are doing things that made you angry and from your story you are doing things that make your fellow players angry.

This is not the time to "Get Back" at anyone. If it was in character and all the players agreed and were having fun that would be one thing. But this is one player in the game trying to hurt another player in the game.

This never ends well.

All that will happen is they will be angry at you for hurting them and will try to "Get Back" at you. Cycle of revenge and you're not going to be fellow players much longer.

You should sit down with your group and outline your problems. Your first character didn't work out so you tried to roll a new character but that isn't working out. Ask them for help, what problems they are having, and what you can all do so you all have fun.

I agree with this.

However, it does sound like one player in particular is bothering the group more and justifying as 'theify' actions. If this is true, and not just bias from reading the problem from another player's point of view, I think you should all inform both the player and DM that you do not want to play with such a character in the group and both the players and characters would be fully justified in kicking the problem character out if the problem isn't rectified. If instead it is just multiple people frustrating each other in various ways, the situation is a little different.

Either way, there needs to be an OOC conversation between all the players about this problem. Resolving it in game won't cut it.

[Diachronos]

I'm sorry I believe you are misunderstanding SowZ's point.

You're right on that, I did misunderstand

Your first character didn't work out so you tried to roll a new character but that isn't working out. Ask them for help, what problems they are having, and what you can all do so you all have fun.

The Brawler would have done well if there hadn't already been 2 melee characters that could out-DPS her in a heartbeat without having to use any special tricks. The only reason the Arcanist "isn't working out" right now is because he's level 2, which is perfectly understandable because casters don't start showing their true worth until after they hit level 3-4.

The only real issue the party has at the moment is that one character is effectively stealing from the party and leaving virtually nothing for the rest of us to work with. What he obtains or steals under his own power, we have no issues with; hell, even if he was skimming a little bit here and there we'd be willing to let it slide because you just expect that from a thief, especially a chaotic neutral one. The issue arises when he does things like run off to loot the treasure in the room while the rest of us are too busy making sure that the treasure's guardian doesn't add our corpses to its stash, or when he swipes all of the valuables from a fight he intentionally didn't take part in and uses it all for his own benefit.

[SowZ]

You're right on that, I did misunderstand


The Brawler would have done well if there hadn't already been 2 melee characters that could out-DPS her in a heartbeat without having to use any special tricks. The only reason the Arcanist "isn't working out" right now is because he's level 2, which is perfectly understandable because casters don't start showing their true worth until after they hit level 3-4.

The only real issue the party has at the moment is that one character is effectively stealing from the party and leaving virtually nothing for the rest of us to work with. What he obtains or steals under his own power, we have no issues with; hell, even if he was skimming a little bit here and there we'd be willing to let it slide because you just expect that from a thief, especially a chaotic neutral one. The issue arises when he does things like run off to loot the treasure in the room while the rest of us are too busy making sure that the treasure's guardian doesn't add our corpses to its stash, or when he swipes all of the valuables from a fight he intentionally didn't take part in and uses it all for his own benefit.

Forget out of character resolution for a minute, (although that is how you should solve this issue,) but why would your characters put up with this? Why aren't you all cornering the thief and taking your stuff out of their hands, telling him he will be booted from the adventuring party if he loots during combat again?

[Diachronos]

Forget out of character resolution for a minute, (although that is how you should solve this issue,) but why would your characters put up with this? Why aren't you all cornering the thief and taking your stuff out of their hands, telling him he will be booted from the adventuring party if he loots during combat again?

Mainly because the one time he tried to loot a room that the rest of us were fighting in, there wasn't anything to be found. Also, while we know OOC that he's the one who stole the weapons, we don't have any proof IC. Fortunately, stealing the weapons from my coffin is the farthest he's gone so far, and while that's a serious problem in and of itself he hasn't started stealing directly from party members yet.

Most likely we'll avoid settling past transgressions in-game, but I WILL be springing for a storage container of some kind for carrying the party's loot back to town, possibly some high-quality locks for the container, and a bunch of scrolls with either Explosive Rune or Glyph of Warding. It might not stop him from trying to steal from the party, and with evasion it probably won't hurt him at all, but I'd love to see him try to discreetly activate an explosion.

[Sith_Happens]

we don't have any proof IC

He suddenly has new armor that he could only have afforded by being the sword thief. That's all the proof you need.

[Cazero]

Furthermore, you're an adventuring party, not a tribunal court. You don't need proof to enact punishment (unless you want him thrown into jail). Knowing he did it is more than enough.

[McBars]

Wait til he's asleep, the rest of you drop a dook in the bag he keeps his thieves' tools in, and then put a bunch of coins in a sock and beat him with it.

[oxybe]

Pre or post game you go "hey bro, could you stop being a jerk? S'not cool man."

And if he goes "It's what my character would do!" instead of "Aight, my bad."

You call him right out "So you're saying you intentionally brought a disruptive character to the table? Why did you think that was a good idea?"

Stuff like this cannot be solved "in character" without turning it into a giant jerk-off: each character trying to outdo the other one in an ever escalating battle of who can be the least likeable person in a passive-aggressive manner.

You solve it out of game by confronting him with his behavior.

Worst case scenario, you can always just opt to take you ball and leave. If you're not having fun, there's really no point in playing.

[aspi]

I agree with those who said that this is a player problem, not a character problem. As someone who enjoys playing rogue type characters, I play by the simple rule that I may cheat and steal from anyone in the game world - except my party. Even as a neutral or evil thief, it's actually fairly easy to reason why a character would behave in this way: as a thief you need support of others and you obviously have some idiots around who are more than willing to take hits for you while you do your stealth thing - why risk that by ticking them off? If you really needed it, you could always steal their riches... until then, let them carry their treasures for you.

On a player level, he obviously did something that is making the rest of you angry. So sit down as a group (don't just tell the DM, have a group discussion) and lay out some rules of what's acceptable conflict within the party and what isn't. Stealing from your fellow players is PVP, just like attacking them would be. So the rogue's player should carefully consider that.

Furthermore, you're an adventuring party, not a tribunal court. You don't need proof to enact punishment (unless you want him thrown into jail). Knowing he did it is more than enough.

This is not a good idea. There has to be some separation of player knowledge and character knowledge and your suggestion doesn't involve any.

[Valefor Rathan]

Could you turn him in to any authorities? In my groups my brother is renowned for turning characters in if the player is unable to make the session. He collects the bounty then we all collect the XP from breaking said character out.

With your group though, don't break him out.

You could also just cut off a hand. Right around the elbow. I'm mostly kidding about this one though.

[Diachronos]

Could you turn him in to any authorities? In my groups my brother is renowned for turning characters in if the player is unable to make the session. He collects the bounty then we all collect the XP from breaking said character out.

With your group though, don't break him out.

You could also just cut off a hand. Right around the elbow. I'm mostly kidding about this one though.

...It's funny, our Cavalier's background rolls netted him average wealth, average social status, and he's absolutely famous, to the point that if he asks any town guard to do something they'll most likely do it. So we could probably have him arrested VERY easily.

[Valefor Rathan]

...It's funny, our Cavalier's background rolls netted him average wealth, average social status, and he's absolutely famous, to the point that if he asks any town guard to do something they'll most likely do it. So we could probably have him arrested VERY easily.

Just be mindful that this may start a trend with the rogue/player. Not sure how the group alignments stack up but "taking matters into their own hands" would be the spin-off/justification. Just be mindful.

The bounty thing spawned from one player doing everything as "I kill the [insert target], loot the corpse, now carry everything to sell it". He was Belkar without anything close to redeeming qualities. In a couple different games we even would just kill or leave that players' characters until he got the point.

[Cazero]

This is not a good idea. There has to be some separation of player knowledge and character knowledge and your suggestion doesn't involve any.

My suggestion involves the characters knowing but not having any proof. They don't need to take finger prints, catch him in the act or that kind of thing. Noticing the valuables disappeared from their unlikely hiding place and the shady backstabbing dishonest guy you're travelling with got a new expensive armor is enough to do the math and guess he did it.

[Galen]

In character, there's only one thing to be done: excluding the character from the party. I mean, come on, he doesn't pull his weight in combat AND steals from you? Why on earth would anyone want to associate with him IC? Have your characters calmly inform his character that he is no longer part of the group, and they are adventuring without him now. Have him sit the game out. If he objects, point out that this is what your characters would do.

[mephnick]

This isn't a 2014 court of law. It's a group of hardly educated homeless guys in a medieval setting. Weapons stolen + thief with unexplained new armour = conviction.

Kill him or kick him out of the party. Both are completely honest, valid and in character decisions.

[Lord Torath]

Have the sit-down discussion about Player vs Player, and let him know that his actions qualify as PvP. As stated before, this is a Player problem, not a character problem. He's being that guy, and this requires OoC. Perhaps bring a sample Manifesto and hammer out some group rules.

If he still insists on PvP, tell him that the next time he falls asleep, the group will pin him, drain his blood, Coup-de-Grace him, sell his fancy armor, and split it among the rest of the group, because that's what your characters would do with someone who steals from them like that. Again, you don't need proof, only suspicion, and you have plenty of that. He had motive, opportunity, a weapon (thieving skills), and is brazenly wearing the spoils (where did he say he got his armor from, anyway?). If this doesn't work, and he's going to insist on being that guy, he needs to be booted.

[mephnick]

I think you treat it as a character problem until he starts doing these things with multiple characters.

If his justification is "playing his character", the solution is to play your character and kill him or kick him out. Hopefully he learns that it goes both ways in the game. If he comes back with a new character and still seems determined to mess with the party, then it elevates to 'player problem' and you sit him down or kick him out of the group. I know there are people who first start playing who don't understand that you have to temper your roleplaying in a way that doesn't interfere with the party. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Sith_Happens]

Wait... You're playing a vampire, yes? Perhaps the rogue would be more of a team player as one of your thralls?

3 characters who just came in at level 1
...
[The rogue is] currently level 7

CODE RED: INCOMPETENT DM ALERT, ALPHA TIER. ESTIMATING 50% DROP IN SITUATION SOLVABILITY. ALL PLAYERS ARE ADVISED TO ENGAGE CAMPAIGN EVACUATION PROTOCOL.

[Diachronos]

I think it's been resolved, the rogue's player decided to have the rogue leave and he's rolling something else. I don't think wehave to worry about any future issues with party theft

[mephnick]

I think it's been resolved, the rogue's player decided to have the rogue leave and he's rolling something else. I don't think wehave to worry about any future issues with party theft

Good stuff..for now.

Also, what Sith said. I must have missed that.

Was there actually a level 1 to 7 gap between players? That's bad enough, but the GM didn't step in at all when the level 7 character screwed over new level 1 characters?

That's uh..

[SowZ]

Good stuff..for now.

Also, what Sith said. I must have missed that.

Was there actually a level 1 to 7 gap between players? That's bad enough, but the GM didn't step in at all when the level 7 character screwed over new level 1 characters?

That's uh..

The DM might be stuck in the super old school vein of thought where character's should always start at level one and having a mid level character is an accomplishment.

You aren't in an overarching organization that polices character growth, right? (Note: This is in no way a knock on any such society, it is certainly a valid way to play.)

[Diachronos]

The DM might be stuck in the super old school vein of thought where character's should always start at level one and having a mid level character is an accomplishment.

You aren't in an overarching organization that polices character growth, right? (Note: This is in no way a knock on any such society, it is certainly a valid way to play.)

No, it's a rule he uses as an incentive for people to keep their current characters instead of switching out all the time. In this week's session he even said that he had one person who came in with a different character every week.

[SowZ]

No, it's a rule he uses as an incentive for people to keep their current characters instead of switching out all the time. In this week's session he even said that he had one person who came in with a different character every week.

Have character's come in a level behind, then. Having character's come it at level one doesn't just incentivize people to keep their characters. It out right cripples anyone who dies or switches characters and makes for an in-cohesive party.

[Jornophelanthas]

No, it's a rule he uses as an incentive for people to keep their current characters instead of switching out all the time. In this week's session he even said that he had one person who came in with a different character every week.

If a player is forced to bring in a level 1 character every time,
and if the encounters are geared towards the "average" group level (which happens to be deadly for most level 1 characters),
then that player will be forced to create a new character every other session or so.

In the long run, your DM's methods to address this concern is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Diachronos]

If a player is forced to bring in a level 1 character every time,
and if the encounters are geared towards the "average" group level (which happens to be deadly for most level 1 characters),
then that player will be forced to create a new character every other session or so.

In the long run, your DM's methods to address this concern is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Funny thing is, we've had only 3 deaths in the campaign, two of which were because the guy's dice love giving him low rolls to the point that we call him the "King of Nat 1s", and the other was because my dice rolled low for a Fort save against a basilisk AND the stone to flesh spell. Only the King's second character was below the average party level when he died; every other new character has survived without issue.