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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Sudden Maximize?

    I've been looking into alot of the "How do we nerf wizards/buff fighters" threads that have been popping up lately, and I've noticed alot of the beef with wizards is Time Stop, specifically, "Sudden Maximized" TimeStop.

    I have no idea what a Sudden Maximize is, and I was under the impression when using that Metamagic feat, that you had to prepare the spell as one three spell levels higher than it really is, meaning a maximized 6th level spell would take up one 9th level spell slot, and being as there is no 12th level spells, you couldn't prepare any spells higher than 6 maximized.

    So, please, someone fix my ignorance, is this feat not only allowing you to maximize on the spot, but also ignore the balancing factor given to Metamagic Feats? If so isn't that a little... cheap? Like, very cheap?

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    Solo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Sudden X Feats can only be used once a day.

    This makes them much less useful than their Core counterparts.

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    It only allows you to do it once a day.

    Alternativly in builds like that, to conserve feats, you can buy a rod of maximize.
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Sudden Metamagic feats don't change the slot level, are usable on the spot without preparation, are can only be used 1/day.

    Edit: gaaaaaaaah!!!!!!

    So, as I was going to say, sudden maximize and sudden quicken also have more prerequisites than the sudden extend/silent/still feats. Really, a greater rod of maximizing is better, it doesn't cost a feat and it has 3 uses per day.

    Edit 2: And of course, the problem isn't really maximized time stop, it's contingency, celerity, time stop in general, and the fighters lack of any built in magical defenses. Maximized Time Stop merely makes it easier, as you can be sure of how many rounds you get (normally, random durations are rolled by the DM so the player doesn't know them), and of course more rounds gives you more buff time.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2007-03-25 at 01:36 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Yeah, really really unbalancing. I'm so happy I play Low-Magic.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Besides, Divine MetaCheesing Clerics are worse for this.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Hey, I hear about how bad the fighter's got it all the time vs. wizards/sorcs/clerics. How does the barbarian measure up?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtbot360 View Post
    Hey, I hear about how bad the fighter's got it all the time vs. wizards/sorcs/clerics. How does the barbarian measure up?
    The Barbarian makes the wizard explode with 15,000 bajillion points of damage. Assuming he hits. Which is assuming he ever gets the chance to swing. Which is a big assumption.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    hmmm... so It sounds like the major problem are these types of spells:

    1) those that put distance between the wizard and noncaster
    2) those that make it impossible/difficult for the noncaster to attack at all.(probably because he is either blind or a squirrel)
    3) time stop and other spells that allow the wizard to act without fear of reprisal from the barbarian.
    4) Spells which raise the wizards AC and other things thats makes hitting "a big assumption." (I can hear wizards whining right now, but seriously, if you can commensate for a lack of armor with spells, why have an ASF penalty on armor?) I mean, if low AC matches that low hp, then that makes a constant worry for wizards and sorcerers. Even Halflings with maxed-out dexterity would have a maximum of 16 AC, and few magic items will be able to boost AC (since the spells need to create most of the magic items in question are gone).
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtbot360 View Post
    (I can hear wizards whining right now, but seriously, if you can commensate for a lack of armor with spells, why have an ASF penalty on armor?)
    So that wizard are forced to use their most valuable resource - spells - at least partly to cover their frailty.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    So that wizard are forced to use their most valuable resource - spells - at least partly to cover their frailty.
    *Insert comment about wands of Mage armor and Shield here*
    Petition for the Giant to make more "The World" articles!

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtbot360 View Post
    *Insert comment about wands of Mage armor and Shield here*
    *Insert comment about those items being expensive*

    Ahem. As for Sudden feats- they aren't bad, I'm currently using Sudden Maximize for Magic Missle and Ray of Enfeeblement with my 3rd level wizard.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gulaghar and Purple Eagle.

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    *Insert comment about those items being expensive*
    *insert second comment about each charge only lasting one hour (assuming default caster level)*
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    *insert second comment about each charge only lasting one hour (assuming default caster level)*
    ... or minute (in case of shield).

    *insert third comment about being easy to dispel*

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtbot360 View Post
    Hey, I hear about how bad the fighter's got it all the time vs. wizards/sorcs/clerics. How does the barbarian measure up?

    Here is a list of all 175 base classes, and here is a list of every publicly available class that you can look at online.

    I rank Barbarians towards the bottom of the list, below all full casters, below most other melee classes, but above hybrid classes (like the Monk or Dragon Shaman) and above poorly written garbage (like the Samurai or Spellthief).

    Arcane full casters rank towards the top of D&D power, so anything that improves them, including Sudden Maximize, will seem unbalanced compared to melee or Skill classes. But they're still less powerful then full casters who can also tank (Clerics, Druids) or the utterly broken classes (Artificer, Archivist).

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    the utterly broken classes (Artificer, Archivist).
    Wizard 1 / Archivist X with alternative source spell FTW!

    OT: The nastiest spells ('cept timestop) are the ones with no random variables. The ones you can cast every morning and know that they'll last till your next rest.
    Last edited by Illiterate Scribe; 2007-03-26 at 03:51 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    Wizard 1 / Archivist X with alternative source spell FTW!

    OT: The nastiest spells ('cept timestop) are the ones with no random variables. The ones you can cast every morning and know that they'll last till your next rest.
    And for everything else, there's Divine MetaCheese.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Am I the only one that find metamagic rods extremely broken? It frees up a epicfeat, allowing you to have it pre-epic, and is usable 3x/day, better than the actual feat, and can be bough several times. Just to remember, metamagic rods are 3.0

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    The SRD disagrees with you, metamagic rods are very 3.5
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    I want sudden maxize just so i can have maxized tenser transmation early plus 12 to strength baby!
    MERGE, HESHIN, COMBINE, TRANSFORM, BIOBOOST, CHANGE... Words that mean so much.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by axraelshelm View Post
    I want sudden maxize just so i can have maxized tenser transmation early plus 12 to strength baby!
    What's there to maximize?

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtbot360 View Post
    Hey, I hear about how bad the fighter's got it all the time vs. wizards/sorcs/clerics. How does the barbarian measure up?
    The only melee class with any significant class feature to help against spellcasters is the monk's SR, but any optimizer/wizard fan will let you know that a "well-done" wizard can beat anything even if it has spell resistance, beat anything that has improved evasion, stop time, tame the tarrasque, swallow the sun without getting heartburn, etc

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Hmm, I rank barbarian among the weakest classes in the game, just barely better then classes like the samurai. The first 5 levels of barbarian are not that bad, but there is no reason to take the class beyond that point. Sure you get an additional +4 Str and Con in a rage, and a few points of DR during the rest of the barbarian levels, but is that worth 15 levels?

    That said, Sudden Maximise is usually a very poor feat because of the metamagic rods (gold is easier to come by then feats), though I usually don't allow metamagic rods in my campaign as spellcasters don't need such help to be overpowering.
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    What's there to maximize?
    well a tenser transformation is n 2d6 for strength and con I think so a plus 12 if maximized.
    MERGE, HESHIN, COMBINE, TRANSFORM, BIOBOOST, CHANGE... Words that mean so much.

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?


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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Ah. axraelshelm is thinking of the 3.0 version of the spell. That gave 1d6 temporary hit points, +2d4 Strength, and +2d4 Dexterity. Yeah, being able to Maximize that isn't a bad deal if you can get your Maximize without increasing the spell level.
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  27. - Top - End - #27
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    damn they changed that aswell? wheres the fun in the random variables and by increasing it so you dont have one.
    MERGE, HESHIN, COMBINE, TRANSFORM, BIOBOOST, CHANGE... Words that mean so much.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    They changed pretty much every buff that had a random variable. The thought process was the fact that it sucks to roll a 1 and, essentially, waste your spell slot.
    John Ling
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Sudden Maximize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    They changed pretty much every buff that had a random variable. The thought process was the fact that it sucks to roll a 1 and, essentially, waste your spell slot.
    yeah but bull strength was 1+1d4 so you can get a plus 1 modifier or you can have a 5 +2 or +3 for odd numbered stats.
    It's the thrill of rolling you might or might not get it saying that what's the point of rolling for damage why not have a set ammount people need to save from?
    I was never a fan of 3.5 and I'm less of a fan now more than ever, there were problems with 3.0 but they were mostly typos and the synegy to skills that was all over the place and having 5 in bluff can get you alot of stuff (more ways than one). Most of it was playable even the sorceror with no skill based on their primary ability score.
    And having damage reduction was special for the barbarian!
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