Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ken-do-nim's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Mansfield, MA
    Gender
    Male

    Thumbs down Shatter spell & attended objects

    Hi,

    In a nutshell, I am running a game tonight in which the party knows they are going up against a gaze attack monster. They have each procured a helmet with a mirror so they can see the creature in their 'rear-view mirror'. Unbeknownst to them however is that one of the npcs in the party is a traitor, and he plans to cast shatter on as many of the party as he can get within the area of effect. This will shatter all the mirrors in all the helmets, leaving those within the 5 foot radius area of effect blind. If that fails, he will just try shattering the helmets directly.

    My question is: does every affected mirror & helmet get the will save of its possessor? I think so, but I want to make sure because I don't want to screw up.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Yes, they all get Will saves as attended objects.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ken-do-nim's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Mansfield, MA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Clementx View Post
    Yes, they all get Will saves as attended objects.
    Thanks; I just wanted to double check. Someone once posted that an easy way for a wizard to defeat even a well-equipped fighter is to dispel magic one of his items (like say wings of flying) and follow that up with a shatter. Well I know fighters have bad will saves, but shatter is only a 2nd level spell so the will save won't be that tough. But if objects had their own saving throw table, then that would be a different story. Anyway, thanks for confirming.
    Last edited by ken-do-nim; 2007-03-25 at 04:18 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Miles Invictus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Iowa, United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm

    Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

    Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.
    RAW, I'm not even sure Shatter will work on those mirrors, unless you target them specifically.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    I think the original dispel-and-shatter build used chaining to apply the effects to a large number of objects at once -- the fighter will likely fail some of his saves...
    Spoiler
    Show

    Gareth the human Transmuter
    Ajax the human Seer
    Grimshander the artic gnome Sorcerer
    Ulfgar the dwarven Cleric
    Froben the gnomish Rogue/Illusionist
    Granger the human Ranger
    and DMing Diabolical Urban Intrigue in Bristol
    and refereeing Wizard vs. Fighter: Arena Grudgematch

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    GMT-8

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Hope your players don't go on these forums.
    Spoiler: PbP Games
    Show

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Miles Invictus-

    Depends on what the mirrors are made of. Silvered glass mirrors (like most mirrors in use today) would definitely fall into the first category. Polished metal mirrors (like those used in ancient times) would fall into the latter category.

    Just to make it even more confusing, the only mirror listed in the SRD is listed as "small steel mirror" -- with no further description. This could either be a steel frame and back containing a silvered-glass mirror, or it could be a piece of highly polished steel. Here in the real world (smell the dying catgirls!) the latter is only possible using stainless steel -- which wasn't invented until the late 19th century...

    So... *shrug*
    Spoiler
    Show

    Gareth the human Transmuter
    Ajax the human Seer
    Grimshander the artic gnome Sorcerer
    Ulfgar the dwarven Cleric
    Froben the gnomish Rogue/Illusionist
    Granger the human Ranger
    and DMing Diabolical Urban Intrigue in Bristol
    and refereeing Wizard vs. Fighter: Arena Grudgematch

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ranis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Similar question about Shatter-my players beleive that using Shatter on an Iron Golem is essentially a Will Save Or Die spell for them, and that's not true, right? Unless they are an insanely high level to make up for the 10lbs/level difference, but even then, a golem counts as a magical object, so the whole point is moot, I suppose.

    Right?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Seattle, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Golems have a wisdom and charisma score, thus they are creatures and not objects, thus they are immune to shatter.
    "Sometimes, were heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."

    -Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    It does damage a "Crystalline creature", as a targeted spell... so it really depends on your DM. RAW, most golems aren't crystalline, so it'd be of no use against them, but my DM rules that most golems count as Shatter targets for the direct damage use.
    Pokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746

    Trade list can be found on my Giant League wiki page, all pokemon are kept in stock with 5 IVs, most with egg moves, some bred for Hidden Powers. Currently at 55 in stock and counting.

    Padherders for my phone and my tablet!

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ranis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    It does damage a "Crystalline creature", as a targeted spell... so it really depends on your DM. RAW, most golems aren't crystalline, so it'd be of no use against them, but my DM rules that most golems count as Shatter targets for the direct damage use.
    Yes, that I agree with, but was talking more along the lines of the fact that they thought it was a Will Save Or Die spell for it, which I totally disagree with.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranis View Post
    Similar question about Shatter-my players beleive that using Shatter on an Iron Golem is essentially a Will Save Or Die spell for them, and that's not true, right? Unless they are an insanely high level to make up for the 10lbs/level difference, but even then, a golem counts as a magical object, so the whole point is moot, I suppose.

    Right?
    A) Shatter can only target crystalline creatures if used against an animate creature.
    B) Golem, being constructs, are considered creatures.
    C) Even if they were objects, they'd be magical objects, and thus immune to Shatter.
    D) They're immune to all but a select few spells anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Mewtarthio, you have scared my brain into hiding, a trembling, broken shadow of a thing, cowering somewhere in the soothing darkness and singing nursery rhymes in the hope of obscuring the Lovecraftian facts you so boldly brought into daylight.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranis View Post
    Yes, that I agree with, but was talking more along the lines of the fact that they thought it was a Will Save Or Die spell for it, which I totally disagree with.
    They are completely wrong. One: a golem is a creature, not an object. 2: Shatter only deals a few d6's if used against a creature it can affect, which is not an Iron Golem. And 3: golems are immune to all but a few specific spells, which includes shatter.
    Attention Imgur Users! Imgur apparently doesn't like hosting images anymore and only works in certain places or for people who already have the image cached: No one can see your avatars or images!
    Also Photobucket users? Don't know if it's a bandwidth or region lock or something, but I'm seeing some avatars blurred out with a watermark that looks like the photobucket icon.
    And Tinypic went down a while back, seeing plenty of old avatars showing their downed image.
    Quote Originally Posted by Violet Octopus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Jack Mann's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Variable Arcana View Post
    Just to make it even more confusing, the only mirror listed in the SRD is listed as "small steel mirror" -- with no further description. This could either be a steel frame and back containing a silvered-glass mirror, or it could be a piece of highly polished steel. Here in the real world (smell the dying catgirls!) the latter is only possible using stainless steel -- which wasn't invented until the late 19th century...
    It's clearer in the PHB, where it's described as a polished steel mirror.
    I am a poor man, some say Im half crazy,
    son of the sword and the knife
    Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
    my heart and my pride and my life
    --Bella Doa, by Joe Bethancourt
    Spoiler
    Show


    Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth

    Owl-atar by KingGolem
    You will be missed, dear 'stache...

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    The single solid object use of the spell only requires the object to be solid. Does that men one could shatter a leather armour? Or even a piece of rope? I think the RAW would let you but what do you guys rule?
    OUCH! Will the barbarian please stop throwing his d4 at his DM! I will make you need it!

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    KoDT69's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    USA and proud of it!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    So is the attended object saving throw actually a will save made by the target creature/player? And does the type or level of magical goodness affect the save? I would imagine a +5 sword to get a +5 save, but that may be just me... ???

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Draak_Grafula View Post
    The single solid object use of the spell only requires the object to be solid. Does that men one could shatter a leather armour? Or even a piece of rope? I think the RAW would let you but what do you guys rule?
    The spell description says that it "sunders a single solid, nonmagical object", among its other effects. There was some discussion of this on the boards a while back, my reading is that it works like the sunder action, and so can target anything that a sunder can. Your interpretation may differ, and certainly the fluff of it is a little odd.

    edit: It does specifically state, though, that you can target a single nonmagical object "regardless of composition".
    Last edited by kamikasei; 2007-03-26 at 07:53 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    KoDT69's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    USA and proud of it!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Hmmm, it does say non-magic. That should specifically exclude crystalline creatures since they are inherantly magical. It does explain why Xykon was able to Shatter Roy's sword, it was an heirloom, but not magical.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Person_Man's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    In general, I consider it poor DMing to do anything to your PC's without giving them a choice and/or an opposed roll of some sort. Anytime you just announce that something happens your PC's will resent you and feel railroaded, but if you give them choice or the illusion of choice, they'll feel as if they are driving the story.

    Consider Scenario A:

    As you walk into the red door, you are surprised by an Invisible Duskblade. Bob, he attacks you, hits, and deals 105 damage using a channeled spell with no Save.

    Or Scenario B:

    Ok, which door do you open? The red one? Everyone make a Listen check. Sadly, you failed the check. You're ambushed by a Duskblade who was hidden in the room waiting for you. Bob, since you walked in the door first, he attacks you, and hits you with a channeled spell attack. Make a Fort Save. Oh, sorry Bob, but 24 isn't quite high enough. Unfortunately, you take 105 damage.


    Now, assuming that you layered in more fluff to both examples, which one would be more fun for a PC? Even though the results can be rigged to be exactly the same, its important not to simply thwart players, but to make plot based directly off of their decisions and actions, not just your story ideas.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ken-do-nim's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Mansfield, MA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Now, assuming that you layered in more fluff to both examples, which one would be more fun for a PC? Even though the results can be rigged to be exactly the same, its important not to simply thwart players, but to make plot based directly off of their decisions and actions, not just your story ideas.
    We actually didn't get that far last night (we never get as far as I think we will), but what I'm worried about is that the shatter will do nothing because the shatter's save dc isn't very high.

    It actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense that just because a pc happens to be wearing something it becomes shatter-resistant. But you're right, stuff that happens without a roll isn't very fair. I was just hoping there was the 1E version of item saving throws somewhere I hadn't seen.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Fixer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Tallahassee, Florida

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    My wife plays a warlock with Dark Speech so I had to make a few adjudications about shatter. The relevant one is as follows:

    Area-of-Effect Shatter ONLY works on objects stated in the spell description (nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain each weighing less than 1 pound per level). Items affected may not be magical and attended objects each gain the saving throw of their possessor (Will negates).

    You don't target parts of an item, you target the whole item. Unless the helmets are made entirely out of crystal, glass, ceramic or porcelain weighing less than 1 pound per caster level they won't be affected by a AoE Shatter.
    Last edited by Fixer; 2007-03-26 at 10:25 AM. Reason: clarification
    The easy I do before breakfast,
    The difficult I do all day long,
    The impossible achieved during the workweek,
    Miracles performed when possible.
    People call me the Fixer,
    and I am here to help you.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Fixer's Guide to Neutrality
    Fixer's Fighter Fix
    (Campaign) Characters:
    Searching For... Goldenrod
    Survival... Gelder

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    The spell description says that it "sunders a single solid, nonmagical object", among its other effects. There was some discussion of this on the boards a while back, my reading is that it works like the sunder action, and so can target anything that a sunder can. Your interpretation may differ, and certainly the fluff of it is a little odd.

    edit: It does specifically state, though, that you can target a single nonmagical object "regardless of composition".
    Thanks for answering.
    So since one can't sunder armor. Can players in your game not use sunder (the spell) to affect worn metal armor?
    OUCH! Will the barbarian please stop throwing his d4 at his DM! I will make you need it!

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shatter spell & attended objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Draak_Grafula View Post
    Thanks for answering.
    So since one can't sunder armor. Can players in your game not use sunder (the spell) to affect worn metal armor?
    I might allow it, since the fact that you can't sunder armor as a combat action is probably because, well, how do you use your weapon to destroy the armor someone's wearing, but deal them no damage? Using shatter to do it makes more sense. It's a matter of heavy interpretation, though, which I've never had to rule on.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •