OOTS #969 - The Discussion Thread

[Perficio]

Is he going to make Undurkon swallow it? I think he's going to make Undurkon swallow it.

"Feast on THIS!~"

Yessss. I like this image.

[Death Knight of]

Yeah, but belkar is more of a jerky blood-thirsty murderer while durkon is in service to the "dishonourable death" goddess. What belkar wants is to figure out whats wrong with durkon. If durkon's new alignment is exposed, the rest of the party is going to order him to spill.

[UristMcRandom]

Aw, was really hoping in the next-to-last panel that he'd say yes. Kinda figured a steady or semi-steady love interest would fit his character growth. Of course, the choosing-not-to-sexually-exploit-her school of thought has a valid point.

[Death Knight of]

Just to keep things straight, I'm with the belkster here and I know they know of Durkon's new alignment, but they Don't know his ulterior motives or new god.

[Terrador]

Belkar's long been established as not giving much of a muskrat's hindquarters about pain when there's murdering to do--in particular, he can egg on Miko while very near death, and he's been truckin' on through while injured for pretty much ever. It's absolutely no stretch to say he'd stomach the pain of the Protection from Evil clasp if it means a chance to bring down HPoH.

[nonamearisto]

Wow, Gnome females are easy to get, aren't they? Unless she had something else in mind by that. Like, really just meant food and nothing more. It might have been just this one gnome female, but there's no reason to think she's unusual for her species. Unless she's not too bright by their standards. Doesn't take a genius to know why he was really hurt by the "anti-evil field."

[dancrilis]

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Emphasis mine.

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

Emphasis mine.

[BriarHobbit]

What a great episode. The title makes complete sense once you reach the punchline.

[tcrudisi]

I noticed a couple of people were wondering what would happen if the clasp was given to Durkon. Valid point ... but I actually don't think that Durkon will be the one to use it after Belkar. I think it will be V. (S)He'll use it to get out of the possession from the demons/devils.

[Lurkmoar]

Wow. If I didn't know any better I'd say that Belkar has actually stopped being evil. Well, at least Obviously Evil.

[Shatteredtower]

It amazes me that the Giant never runs out of new and interesting ways to hurt Belkar, even as he gets more subtle about it. Good to see this gnome merchant fare better than the last one Belkar encountered. Good to see this woman treated better than the last one to show interest in Belkar.

It's a shame that all of these little ways of becoming better might just make things worse for Belkar personally in the long run.

[Quild]

Yes, he did. No, she didn't.

Persuasion is not dickery. Haley used persuasion, Belkar used dickery. Same effect, but achieved through different methods.

If it helps, lets say we both want $10 from Dave. I ask to borrow ten bucks. You mug him. We get the same result, and yet one of us is significantly more dickish.

I agree with your example but the situation may not be the same here.

When Haley got the 80% discount, the kind of persuasion she used is... well, not magic. It defies the natural order.
Did the gnomes put a major cut to the high profits they would have done or are they now losing money helping the order? If Haley is aware of which one is the good one, it may make a difference.

If Haley just made a persuasion roll and is done with it, that's not fair toward the gnomes. Certainly less fair than what Belkar did.
Because I'm quite sure that the gnomes speaking with Haley really had less free will in that matter than the one speaking with Belkar. For what we know, she could have refused if she wasn't interested in Belkar.
It's like when that girl asks 10 bucks to Dave and Dave thinks that it could give him an edge to give her.

[Great equalizer]

Mostly a question on rules here.
Considering that the clasp "costs thousands to make", and someone calculated that a continuous effect one would cost 4000 GP, we can probably say it's continuous (turned on and off at will) rather than limited uses per day - it would cost much less then, right?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Just to keep things straight, I'm with the belkster here and I know they know of Durkon's new alignment, but they Don't know his ulterior motives or new god.

The clasp would, at best, reveal only his alignment (which many of them already know, given that he summons demons and channels negative energy). It would not tell them that he is a worshipper of Hel, and it certainly wouldn't reveal his goals and intentions.

[Great equalizer]

The clasp would, at best, reveal only his alignment (which many of them already know, given that he summons demons and channels negative energy). It would not tell them that he is a worshipper of Hel, and it certainly wouldn't reveal his goals and intentions.

It may let "real" Durkon take over for the duration of the spell, so he can tell others what's going on with him. Emphasis on "may" - since OOTS vampirism is homebrew, it's unclear whether it counts as "mental control" for PfE.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It may let "real" Durkon take over for the duration of the spell, so he can tell others what's going on with him. Emphasis on "may" - since OOTS vampirism is homebrew, it's unclear whether it counts as "mental control" for PfE.

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

As we can see here, it would be unable to expel the High Priest of Hel, and since what is causing Durkon to be unable to control himself is the fact that the High Priest of Hel has him captured, I think that at best the High Priest of Hel would be unable to exercises control, but Durkon would be unable to regain it, at worst he would be unaffected.

[St Fan]

Okay, now we know without a hint of a doubt how the comic will end: with the Snarl getting free and the world breaking apart.

Come on, Belkar is growing a CONSCIENCE! It's the end of the world!

[Bravo]

Being Evil on its own, might not be an "arrest-worthy factor" in most cities in the OoTS world - it certainly isn't in typical D&D worlds, going by Heroes of Horror at least.

You'd think so, but then again The Giant has made a point of demonstrating how Lawful Stupid some civilizations can be when it comes to people that are classified as "Evil". Would Redcloak be as hellbent on revenge if the Sapphire Guard hadn't embarked on near-genocide, simply because "Goblins are Evil"?

[Themrys]

Wow, Gnome females are easy to get, aren't they? Unless she had something else in mind by that. Like, really just meant food and nothing more. It might have been just this one gnome female, but there's no reason to think she's unusual for her species. Unless she's not too bright by their standards. Doesn't take a genius to know why he was really hurt by the "anti-evil field."

Men like you deserve to only meet women who are so "hard to get" that you will never "get" one.

[xkcd_386]

Men like you deserve to only meet women who are so "hard to get" that you will never "get" one.

"I don't get it!"

[Killer Angel]

I feel like it would be smarter for Belkar to "give" the clasp to someone else actually. Someone seems like they've been dominated?.

I wonder what could happen if Belkar "gives" the clasp to Durkula...

[Cerlis]

But choosing to not exploit the nice gnome woman sexually and emotionally as well as financially does. Let's be real here, the best thing that could have happened to her on that date would be to be friendzoned, which men often claim is a terrible fate. And it only goes downwards from there.

Turning down the possibility for sex is quite uncharacteristic for Belkar. As he is justifying his actions to his cat, I almost believe this is not a part of his clever plan to become neutral in order to be able to use protection from evil. (Although I wonder when he will realize that this would indeed be the clever thing to do. If he manages to become just neutral enough to not suffer from the effects of that thing, his chance of defeating Durkula will improve a lot.)

Unrelatedly, it confuses the hell out of me when women hit on Belkar. His informed attractiveness just doesn't translate into his actual appearance. It does explain why she believes the item his broken rather than coming to the more logical conclusion that Belkar is evil, though.

well i think she was just asking him to supper. Quite often plotonic, but i think the confusion is that most/many people assume that to be "something to do" as an excuse to hang out with the person. I'm sure she wouldnt mind having a good first date, but didnt see like she was expecting anything in that regard.

I think its more the "lying about not being evil, ruining her stuff, scamming her, and then not taking her up on gratitude that wouldnt be needed if not for the lying" thing.

[Themrys]

"I don't get it!"

Don't worry, Elan sweetie, it doesn't concern you. You may not get it, but we'll always get some .

@Cerlis: I would also think that she just offered to pay his dinner, but I have spent enough time around other people to at least suspect they wouild consider this a date.
Any way, he decided to not accept a reward for his deception, so this is some character development.

[stench]

oh belkar, you lady-killer....
..both literally and figuratively, i suppose

[Quild]

Wait... What's wrong if the gnome girl wants to date the handsome nice halfling stranger for a one-night stand?

[Themrys]

Wait... What's wrong if the gnome girl wants to date the handsome nice halfling stranger for a one-night stand?

What is wrong? (Assuming that she wants it to be a date, indeed) Well, she wants to date a handsome man, and she decided to invite him for dinner.

A woman who judges men's attractiveness by their looks and not their self-perceived worth in terms of money or "niceness"? Shocking! A woman who makes her own decisions on whom to spend her time with instead of waiting for a man to make that decision for her? Shocking! A woman who has her own money and is able to pay for dinner? The horror!

One would have thought they'd gotten used to it, after Hilgya decided to have sex with Durkon, but apparently not. I guess the Giant needs to be a bit more proactive in offending this group's sensibilities.

[Brumagris]

Am I the only one that thinks that, although Belkar wants to get Durkon back, it is not for the good of Durkon or the party but actually more for telling Roy "I told you so, he did take me as a soda because he doesn´t give a damn about us"?

The stripe is great and offers a myriad of possibilities in the future, as we can all see. The parallelism from the gnome out of Azure city and the sweet lady we encountered in strip 969 is remarkable.

We´ll see what happens next... :)

[Vahir]

What is wrong? (Assuming that she wants it to be a date, indeed) Well, she wants to date a handsome man, and she decided to invite him for dinner.

A woman who judges men's attractiveness by their looks and not their self-perceived worth in terms of money or "niceness"? Shocking! A woman who makes her own decisions on whom to spend her time with instead of waiting for a man to make that decision for her? Shocking! A woman who has her own money and is able to pay for dinner? The horror!

One would have thought they'd gotten used to it, after Hilgya decided to have sex with Durkon, but apparently not. I guess the Giant needs to be a bit more proactive in offending this group's sensibilities.

If you're going to make that argument, in this case it seems that the Giant agrees with those people, because the voluntarily offered date is considered immoral for Belkar to accept.

Why it's immoral, though, I haven't the faintest clue. Because he abused her trust to get a better deal? Haley does that constantly throughout the strips, and the morality of it is never brought up, really. Are we supposed to think, "Go Haley" when she does it, but "Boo Belkar" when he does? Why?

[Themrys]

If you're going to make that argument, in this case it seems that the Giant agrees with those people, because the voluntarily offered date is considered immoral for Belkar to accept.

Why it's immoral, though, I haven't the faintest clue. Because he abused her trust to get a better deal? Haley does that constantly throughout the strips, and the morality of it is never brought up, really. Are we supposed to think, "Go Haley" when she does it, but "Boo Belkar" when he does? Why?

It is not about the date, it is about the fact that she offered to pay for his dinner, falsely believing that he is a "sweetheart", not an evil halfling who just tricked her into believing that her product is broken when it actually functions quite good.

Where does Haley lie to someone about the quality of the product they sell? I can't remember her doing that. (It might be part of her persuasion tactic, but we aren't shown that) I also can't remember her accepting a date with someone who believes her to be better than she actually is. Even Elan knows that she's a rogue, I'm pretty sure.

Am I the only one that thinks that, although Belkar wants to get Durkon back, it is not for the good of Durkon or the party but actually more for telling Roy "I told you so, he did take me as a soda because he doesn´t give a damn about us"?

I think it is most about his own safety as member of a group that includes an evil vampire, and revenge on Not-Durkon than about telling Roy "I told you so". Belkar is used to being the only evil group member, and thus safe from being killed in his sleep, and he doesn't like the threat Durkula poses to his safety. Also, Durkula made him look like an idiot, which he will want revenge for.

[davidbofinger]

Would Redcloak be as hellbent on revenge if the Sapphire Guard hadn't embarked on near-genocide, simply because "Goblins are Evil"?

Not just because they were evil, but also because one among them (Redcloak, though they didn't known that at the time) threatened "the very foundations of creation itself".

Prophecy leads to causal loops. The goblins think they were attacked for no reason, so one strikes back by actions that may release the snarl. The Sapphire Guard know the goblins may release the snarl, so they attack pre-emptively. Both sides feel they are in the right. (Though they might have anyway, for other reasons.)

The same thing happens in the Terminator franchise. From the human point of view SkyNet attacked them and they fought back. From SkyNet's point of view it was barely awake when humans tried to kill it, so it fought back.