Why have they neutered the Warlock down so much?

[Dalebert]

I don't think proper weight is being given to the downside of these slots per short rest. All the way through lvl 10, a lock has just 2 slots in any particular encounter. At 10, other casters have 15 that they can use at any time. Yes, those 2 are high-powered slots but a frequent problem is going to be a drawn-out battle where something goes unexpectedly. It's not that hard for a typical caster to blow through some extra slots for a really tough encounter or make a point to save a slot or two for a Misty Step or some other butt-saver. A warlock's invocations should be what they fall back on for particulary long and/or tough encounters when they're out of slots as they often will find themselves to be. That's when a 1/day spell that's otherwise too powerful to just add to their spell list could be their butt-saver.

We were just in a hobgoblin cave and each fight was making noise that attracted more from down the hall despite all efforts at quick and silent resolutions. A single battle was getting really drawn out and I was tapped out in no time. 2 slots per short rest became 2 slots for the entire dungeon. Sure, opportunity cost for playing something other than a lock but that opportunity cost goes both ways.

I'll see if my DM wants to house rule this but if not, I'll probably just avoid these invocations as they don't make sense to me. I'm having enough difficulty trying to manage already very limited resources and the warlock spell list ain't bad without them IMHO. I'll save my precious invocation slots for something "in addition to" versus "instead of" my spell slots.

[MaxWilson]

I don't think proper weight is being given to the downside of these slots per short rest.

I'm weighting that limitation quite heavily. It's why proactive vs. reactive is important.

And yes, if I were your DM and you wanted to have Sculptor of Flesh be usable 1/day without a spell slot instead of adding Polymorph to your spell list, I would allow that too. I think that makes the invocation be about the right power level.

[Thugorp]

This all kinda goes to the point of Warlocks being week. In order to make them ballanced almost everyone is making changes to them, like making many of thier invocations take no spell slots or changing what Create Thrall does(which only 1/3ed of warlocks get). Heck even using mirror image to imitate a patrole of orcs takes leeway on the DM's part(I agree with the leeway and when I dm I always alow it) but as raw it only has a few very basic effects.
Also, the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation can't be taken by all warlocks, only warlocks who take the packt of the tolm can take it; Chain and blade warlocks can't.

O.k. I know that sounds winey but... I guess I feel upset about it baceause the selling point of this game was consice simple and painstakingly balanced rules that makes play simple for players and game running desision free for D.M.s to the point where the D.M.G. shouldn't be nessisary. Which is how the D.M. runing my game is playing it pure raw no judgement calls. This is the first time I havn't D.M.ed ever and I wanted to play for a change and was willing to play with a novice D.M. to make that happen I thought, hey a system where the selling point was simplisity clarity and ballance it would be perfect for a novice g.m. ... but... nope. I could list all the things that are writen in shouch a way that they won't be understood and/or used correctly unless you know from past additions what they should be but I know this is getting off topic I will open a new thread for this later instead of draging this one off topic.

[JoeJ]

O.k. I know that sounds winey but... I guess I feel upset about it baceause the selling point of this game was consice simple and painstakingly balanced rules that makes play simple for players and game running desision free for D.M.s to the point where the D.M.G. shouldn't be nessisary.

When did Wizards say the DM Guide shouldn't be necessary?

[MaxWilson]

This all kinda goes to the point of Warlocks being week. In order to make them ballanced almost everyone is making changes to them, like making many of thier invocations take no spell slots or changing what Create Thrall does(which only 1/3ed of warlocks get).

Not really. I would tweak Sculptor of Flesh not because warlocks are weak but because that invocation is weak-ish. (The other spell invocations are even weaker.) It makes warlocks broader, not stronger, because there are other good invocations already which are better than that one. Agonizing/Repelling Blast, Eldritch Spear, the ritual secrets one, Mask of Many Faces, Devil's Sight, Ascendant Step all come to mind. (The value of Ascendant Step is dependent on playstyle. In dungeon with 10' ceilings it's pretty worthless; outdoors it's good; with a DM who likes vertical navigation with ladders and cave cliffs and such it's amazing.)

Ideally I'd like all the invocations I offer to warlocks to be good enough to be interesting, and that's why I would tweak the spell-like invocations.

The fundamental rule about balance is that the strength of a set of options (e.g. a class) is based on the best option available to you, not the number of weaker options. If class X can cast nine spells, or choose between nine subclasses, and eight of them are trash and the ninth one is amazingly good, you cannot claim that X is underpowered. You can only claim at most that it is boring and samey.

[Dalebert]

This all kinda goes to the point of Warlocks being week.

What Max said. I just won't take the invocations that make me use a spell slot for a 1/day spell because I think they are subpar. That just means I'll take something else and there are good options. It goes back to what I said earlier in the thread (I think). It's not that warlocks are weak. In fact they seem to be a popular class for a reason. but I feel like they gave them a bunch of options but most aren't very good so most warlocks are going to pick all the same ones and end up alike.

[ghost_warlock]

Not really. I would tweak Sculptor of Flesh not because warlocks are weak but because that invocation is weak-ish. (The other spell invocations are even weaker.) It makes warlocks broader, not stronger, because there are other good invocations already which are better than that one. Agonizing/Repelling Blast, Eldritch Spear, the ritual secrets one, Mask of Many Faces, Devil's Sight, Ascendant Step all come to mind. (The value of Ascendant Step is dependent on playstyle. In dungeon with 10' ceilings it's pretty worthless; outdoors it's good; with a DM who likes vertical navigation with ladders and cave cliffs and such it's amazing.)

My beef with ascendant step is that, by the time you can actually take that invocation, I don't see why you wouldn't just cast fly instead. How many times per day do you really need to levitate anyway?

Ideally I'd like all the invocations I offer to warlocks to be good enough to be interesting, and that's why I would tweak the spell-like invocations.

The fundamental rule about balance is that the strength of a set of options (e.g. a class) is based on the best option available to you, not the number of weaker options. If class X can cast nine spells, or choose between nine subclasses, and eight of them are trash and the ninth one is amazingly good, you cannot claim that X is underpowered. You can only claim at most that it is boring and samey.

The problem with these invocations is twofold. For starters, making them only usable once per day and making them burn a spell slot makes them too costly.

The second problem is that they're simply redundant.

Out of all of the 1/day invocations, minions of chaos and sculptor of flesh are the only two that actually broaden the warlock's range and provide benefits that can't more-or-less be duplicated with the native spell list. All of the others are just different variations on the theme of debuffing enemies, which is something warlocks already have plenty of options for between hex, crown of madness, darkness, enthrall, hold person, ray of enfeeblement, fear, hunger of hadar, hypnotic pattern, banishment, blight, and hold monster (without even getting into the charms, other illusions, and the level 6+ spells).

Bewitching whispers, dreadful word, mire the mind, and thief of five fates are far too similar to each other and the other spells already on the warlock spell list. There isn't really any reason why someone wouldn't just take one of these invocations, if any. More than likely mire the mind will be the one chosen since it's available sooner and seems like it'd work out to be the most effective. Sign of ill omen also has the unfortunate issue that, thematically, bestow curse should just be on the warlock spell list in the first place.

[Thugorp]

When did Wizards say the DM Guide shouldn't be necessary?

When did they not? They reliesed 2 adventure archs before the D.M.G. and started the cuoprotive play sociaty without it... in what way is the D.M.G. suposed to be nessisary?

[Tenmujiin]

When did they not? They reliesed 2 adventure archs before the D.M.G. and started the cuoprotive play sociaty without it... in what way is the D.M.G. suposed to be nessisary?

I'm sorry but your spelling is at the point where I actually have trouble understanding what you are trying to say.

On topic, the absolutely necessary parts of the DMG are available online and the DMG itself contains many useful resources while while not strictly needed do make a DM's life much easier.