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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    eek A little help (please)

    So I know by now that most of you on here are experienced players and have encountered many problems/challenges, both in and out of game. So I have come to you all for advice.

    A good friend of mine is GMing for a group of 5, me, a friend of mine, and two of his friends I don't really know.
    Now heres the problem, he's racist/sexist and i only just found this out a month ago, and i mean racist/sexist in a "I've never experienced it so I dont care" way. (mostly because he is a wealthy, white dude.)

    The thing is, I like roleplaying challenges, playing a strange race, multiple personalities, differing sex's, etc. and I fear he may try to put down my character as a result. (he already has once, trying to make my "Brienne of Tarth" a pretty little princess)

    I just need advice on what to do, I've never encountered something like this before in my time RPing and it would help a lot for someone to help me stay friends with this guy, without poor Brienne being forced into a dress.
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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    I would say in this kind of situation there's no option but to put your foot down, out of character. Tell him you don't want the GM to be making decisions on how you play your character and that you would like him to leave you be. If he doesn't understand that then leave the group (always the last option).

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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Agreed. You play your character, he plays the world. If he tries to dictate how your character thinks, feels or acts you call him out on it.

    Alternatively play a non-human. Theres less chance he's going to make a bearded dwarf woman wear a dress as she takes her warhammer into battle.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2014-12-10 at 10:36 PM.

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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cunningtub View Post
    So I know by now that most of you on here are experienced players and have encountered many problems/challenges, both in and out of game. So I have come to you all for advice.

    A good friend of mine is GMing for a group of 5, me, a friend of mine, and two of his friends I don't really know.
    Now heres the problem, he's racist/sexist and i only just found this out a month ago, and i mean racist/sexist in a "I've never experienced it so I dont care" way. (mostly because he is a wealthy, white dude.)

    The thing is, I like roleplaying challenges, playing a strange race, multiple personalities, differing sex's, etc. and I fear he may try to put down my character as a result. (he already has once, trying to make my "Brienne of Tarth" a pretty little princess)

    I just need advice on what to do, I've never encountered something like this before in my time RPing and it would help a lot for someone to help me stay friends with this guy, without poor Brienne being forced into a dress.
    That's not because he's a wealthy white dude, it's because he's an *******. That's a condition that knows no boundary of economic background, race, or gender.

    He seems to want to dictate to you how to play your character according to his stereotypes. If he refuses to let you play your character, why play the game? No gaming is better than bad gaming - and this champ seems like the sort of guy that gaming horror stories are made from.

    But hey, on the plus side there's an off chance that you'll wind up with a 'funny if it didn't happen to you' story out of this.

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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    The others pretty much have you covered here. Talk to him about it, how you don't want him trying to control your character, and any real-life examples he can think of to justify such actions are basically completely and utterly worthless in a game that has magic, gods, dragons, monsters, and whatever else in it.
    But also try to be polite about it, this isn't really about his worldviews (or yours), and you may want to make that clear, this is about a game, nothing more, nothing less.

    That said, if it becomes to big of a problem, and you feel you can't deal with it walk away before it destroys your friendship, assuming you're interested in preserving it that is.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    I enjoy playing ten thousand character types. But I find that things go more smoothly when I play the kind of character that both the GM and I enjoy.

    When Nolen is GMing, I go for a character with lots of options, because he likes seeing something unexpected. When Rob is the DM, I play a literary classic. In Dirk's game, it's best to play a swashbuckling hero. For Bob, I'll choose a politically focused character.

    My recommendation is to either drop out of the game, or play a character who will be treated well within it.

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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Besides, the "I've never experienced it, so I don't care" type is generally not actively racist/sexist, just passively. And he's being actively sexist by enforcing the view that your girl character should wear a dress. But yeah, tell him your character is yours to control as you see fit, and if he doesn't hear it (like, "ok she puts on an armor, but the second she goes out in public she's put in priso because the world is sexist"), have a serious OOC talk. If that still doesn't work, tell him you don't feel like this is a game for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I enjoy playing ten thousand character types. But I find that things go more smoothly when I play the kind of character that both the GM and I enjoy.

    When Nolen is GMing, I go for a character with lots of options, because he likes seeing something unexpected. When Rob is the DM, I play a literary classic. In Dirk's game, it's best to play a swashbuckling hero. For Bob, I'll choose a politically focused character.

    My recommendation is to either drop out of the game, or play a character who will be treated well within it.

    This is a good suggestion, but not one you really want to implement with a racist GM. I can vouch, as a GM, that characters who fit my own milieu are the most successful personalities. I, for instance, favor conflicted heroes and sympathize-able villains. Characters who are terrible people have me weeping inside for the entire session. For a GM who has a more unhealthy milieu, however, that's a not a good (or comfortable) place to go.
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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Alternatively play a non-human. There's less chance he's going to make a bearded dwarf woman wear a dress as she takes her warhammer into battle.
    Not even for the hilarious mental image?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Not even for the hilarious mental image?
    You mean, a rugous leather skirt above the chainmail pants, with heavy reinforced boots, and lipstick putting a touch of warmth and color on that helmeted bearded head?
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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seto View Post
    Besides, the "I've never experienced it, so I don't care" type is generally not actively racist/sexist, just passively. And he's being actively sexist by enforcing the view that your girl character should wear a dress. But yeah, tell him your character is yours to control as you see fit, and if he doesn't hear it (like, "ok she puts on an armor, but the second she goes out in public she's put in priso because the world is sexist"), have a serious OOC talk. If that still doesn't work, tell him you don't feel like this is a game for you.
    This, exactly this. Someone whose being passively sexist should be fine if called out on it. One of my players pointed out I was being sexist with my tendency to make characters male, and so I'm trying to solve this in my current Vampire game, where people of both genders are sprinkled throughout (the only reason Mithras is Prince of London instead of Anne is because I want to play around with what it would be like to have another character's soul inside you, he occasionally acts more like I'd imagine Monty would), and have specifically made the leader of the local Sabbat something they wouldn't expect (specifically a low-gen female Salubri Anttribru brave enough to attack the Tremere Chantry head on and strong enough to survive that (7 points of Fortitude and extensive feeding earlier in the night)) to throw them off their toes. None of them have brought up anything racist I've done yet, but I'm far less likely to mention a character's race (which I hope mean they'll be surprised when the anglo-chinese woman is prancing through the Chantry).

    So the answer is to try bringing it up with him, because if he isn't consciously sexist he should be able to come to an understanding with you.
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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    ... One of my players pointed out I was being sexist with my tendency to make characters male...
    That's... that's not what sexism is. Not even a little bit.

    If you were trying to force females into certain roles, that would be sexist. If you were trying to act like females can't do certain things, that would be sexist. If you were suggesting females would like certain things more than others because of their genders, that would be sexist. Females simply not existing in your game isn't sexist, especially if it's a game based around violence, being as violent occupations are almost exclusively male and all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    That's... that's not what sexism is. Not even a little bit.

    If you were trying to force females into certain roles, that would be sexist. If you were trying to act like females can't do certain things, that would be sexist. If you were suggesting females would like certain things more than others because of their genders, that would be sexist. Females simply not existing in your game isn't sexist, especially if it's a game based around violence, being as violent occupations are almost exclusively male and all.
    It's not problematic sexism (it is still sexism technically, but that's a point of semantics), and was actually joked about at the time, but the problem was that women just weren't certain things, as a side-effect of me not paying attention to genders. The point was that if it's subconscious sexism (e.g. all the leaders of a country/corporation/whatever are male because I wasn't paying attention to roles) it's far easier to deal with than conscious sexism (all women must wear dresses, because they are women). I actually have more problems with racism in real life (specifically I have a handful of traits I apply to people when meeting them based on skin tone, even though most of the people I meet don't fall into stereotypes), but it doesn't show in game.

    As an example, I tend to assume that Chinese people are humourless, even though my best friend is Chinese, and all my Chinese friends have very good senses of humour. But due to the setting of my last couple of games, it's been realistic to have 90%+ of the in-game population to be white.

    My BIG problem with sexism is making all my movers and shakers (the specific role that the player pointed out) male, which I've solved within the last month or so. I was accidently implying that women didn't have the capacity to be in that category, which is why my current game revolves around a power struggle between at least three people, with both the most and one of the least competent being women. In fact, one of them has a good chance of winning even if the PCs oppose her, because she's the only one that makes good use of her allies (instead of just making good use of their underlings).

    Most of the fighters I use tend to be male, which is something that's just understood, and it's nowhere near as problematic as the OPs problem, but I thought I'd share an example about how sometimes it's just someone not realising they're doing it (I do have a tendency to assume female PCs wear certain clothing, but that's more of a case of 'you didn't say what you were wearing, I'm going to make it generic (so there's probably a dress or skirt in there)'.), because here it MIGHT just be a lack of experience with female PCs.

    Anyway, this is a tangent, and I've forgotten enough of the incident that I can't remember the line of reasoning used. If you're interested in defining sexism, be my guest to try, but I'd like to point out that, In my opinion, leaving a gender out of a role is just as sexist as forcing them into one (which is why there's such a kerfuffle about female engineers in my university, the gender proportions are serious out of line with the other courses).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    One of my players pointed out I was being sexist with my tendency to make characters male
    OK. I admit, I haven't read the rest of the comment...but this isn't sexism. To be -ist is to put down, or think less of a group of people. To say that having your characters being male is sexist is like saying to only have sex with females is sexist.

    EDIT: now read the rest of the forum. If people want to infer that your whole not thinking about the sex is sexist, then that's really on them. I won't condemn your actions to 'correct' what you see as wrong though, especially when it is with yourself, and not in the form of abusive trash talk.
    Also, not enough female engineers? What? Are you going to force them out of what they want so they can be engineers?
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2014-12-11 at 10:42 PM.

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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Well, I'd quit then and there, but that's probably neither productive nor what you want to do. I sometimes take a scorched earth policy to things that don't really require it, like personal relationships and gardening.

    I'd suggest an OOC chat, like everyone else. I'd start with the "don't play my character for me" and then segue into "and some of the things you've been saying/doing have made me uncomfortable and since we're friends I think you should make an effort to stop."

    Quote Originally Posted by SangoProduction View Post
    OK. I admit, I haven't read the rest of the comment...but this isn't sexism. To be -ist is to put down, or think less of a group of people. To say that having your characters being male is sexist is like saying to only have sex with females is sexist.

    EDIT: now read the rest of the forum. If people want to infer that your whole not thinking about the sex is sexist, then that's really on them. I won't condemn your actions to 'correct' what you see as wrong though, especially when it is with yourself, and not in the form of abusive trash talk.
    Also, not enough female engineers? What? Are you going to force them out of what they want so they can be engineers?
    Not enough heads or desks in the world.

    The reason it's sexist (though not a particularly problematic kind) is that Anonymouswizard was making a bunch of countries and made them all run by men without intending to, which, when not paired with any other sign of sexism in the world, gives the impression that women aren't suited for leadership. It was not intentional, but because that's the sort of miasma we live in it's unavoidable to some extent.*

    And no, no one's saying women who don't want to be engineers should be forced to be engineers. No one's suggesting men who don't want to be teachers or nurses should be forced to be either. The suggestion is that men should avoid doing stuff like making sexist jokes that make women not want to be in that field, passing up women for promotions, not picking women as proteges, and all the little things that make women decide not to enter a field. (Male nurses/teachers tend to be more a problem of it being considered "unmanly" and many men preferring to die rather than have that thought of them.

    *Note that it is not, in se, sexist to make all the leaders of a fictional country male. If you're writing a sexist society (as I write my dwarves) it can actually be enlightening to casual sexists as they might actually have to grapple with something that they don't usually. Or if you're writing a culture where women genuinely aren't good leadership material (e.g. they're trees), though this walks a fine line and only works well if you also demonstrate that you're not trying to imply this is true about humans. Even if the majority of your audience knows you're not implying it, there are enough ******* sexists that will think you're agreeing with them and take it as encouragement. I can say from experience that the feeling you get when you realize you've done this takes at least half a dozen showers to wash off
    Last edited by Jeff the Green; 2014-12-11 at 11:42 PM.
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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Not enough heads or desks in the world.

    The reason it's sexist (though not a particularly problematic kind) is that Anonymouswizard was making a bunch of countries and made them all run by men without intending to, which, when not paired with any other sign of sexism in the world, gives the impression that women aren't suited for leadership. It was not intentional, but because that's the sort of miasma we live in it's unavoidable to some extent.*
    That's kind of a reach. If it were paired up with something else kinda-maybe sexist (such as the token female leader being inept) I could see the claim carrying merit, but as it is it's more a case of not thinking of the character's gender at all. There's simply not enough evidence to suggest sexism in this circumstance. Shoehorning in female characters simply for the sake of having female characters in positions of power is sexist.

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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Sounds like a great guy.

    The best advice is to just move on. There is really no way this ends well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    it's more a case of not thinking of the character's gender at all
    Then shouldn't it be 50/50? Why is it that the default gender for leaders is male? That's the point. It's small, subtle, and insidious, but it's been shown over and over in study after study that this sort of sexism is omnipresent and results in things like female students not getting mentored (including by female profs) to the same degree as male ones, in black applicants not getting interviews as often as white ones, and makes people describe women politicians as "shrill" and male politicians as "forceful" when they're quoted (in a newspaper clipping, so it can't be tone or body language or anything other than gender) as saying exactly the same thing.
    Last edited by Jeff the Green; 2014-12-12 at 01:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    Well, of course I'm paranoid about everything. Hell, with Jeff as DM, I'd be paranoid even if we were playing a game set in The Magic Kiddie Funland of Perfectly Flat Planes and Sugar Plums.
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    Default Re: A little help (please)

    Maybe most of his leaders (and most NPCs in fact) are male because that is what he is most comfortable Roleplaying. My DM has openly admitted he doesn't know how to portray a female as well as a male and thus usually uses males when he has to make a NPC on the spot.

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    I'm gonna go against the grain here...

    The reason I wouldn't like to play with a sexist or racist GM is because I wouldn't be able to stand this person in any situation, not just at a table.

    But your situation is different. You *can* stand this person, and in fact, are good friends with him. Thus, I don't think you should sit him down and be like "Dude, you're racist and sexist, and you need to stop." You might want to eventually, I suppose, if it gets grating. But right now, that's jumping the gun.

    You should just make your character, and whenever your friend makes a racist/sexist assumption, just correct him. Like make your female whatever, and whenever your friend assumes she's in a frilly dress (or substitute other offensive thing of your choice) just say "oh no, she's not. She's actually ____." Don't be passive aggressive about it or mean about it, you're just setting the record straight on your character. Because this person is your friend, and hopefully a good GM, he'll let you run your character how you wish whether or not he is sexist/racist.

    I give this advice partly because you should never show up to a gaming table to fight the other players. That's not conducive to a good time for anyone and is kinda... what "That Guy" would do. I also partly give this advice because interacting with your friend with the assumption that he is ignorant about sexism/racism and that it is your duty to take him under your wing and teach him is kind of an insulting, uncool way to treat him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Maybe most of his leaders (and most NPCs in fact) are male because that is what he is most comfortable Roleplaying. My DM has openly admitted he doesn't know how to portray a female as well as a male and thus usually uses males when he has to make a NPC on the spot.
    That would indeed be a reason I'd think was fine, though I'd encourage such a DM/player (especially a DM) to step outside their comfort zone in the same way I'd encourage someone who was uncomfortable playing male characters/meatheads/intellectuals/good guys/bad guys/neutral guys/etc. Anonymouswizard implied that this wasn't the case, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagash View Post
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    Last edited by Castaras; 2014-12-12 at 07:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    Well, of course I'm paranoid about everything. Hell, with Jeff as DM, I'd be paranoid even if we were playing a game set in The Magic Kiddie Funland of Perfectly Flat Planes and Sugar Plums.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunningtub View Post
    (he already has once, trying to make my "Brienne of Tarth" a pretty little princess)
    What exactly you mean by this matters a great deal in how you approach the subject with him. Did he just assume she was a pretty princess, or did he refuse to accept how you wanted to play her? The former is easy, just play the game, and correct him when it comes up. Unless he's a jerk, he'll just roll with it and move on. The latter is a bit trickier, and probably means you should talk to him outside the game. If he insists on causing friction about you wanting to play characters that defy traditional roles, then I'd suggest either bowing out of the game, or rolling up something more standard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    That would indeed be a reason I'd think was fine, though I'd encourage such a DM/player (especially a DM) to step outside their comfort zone in the same way I'd encourage someone who was uncomfortable playing male characters/meatheads/intellectuals/good guys/bad guys/neutral guys/etc. Anonymouswizard implied that this wasn't the case, however.
    From what I read of what he posted, he didn't imply that was the case at all - he outright stated he didn't think about their gender, which makes Kane0's point that he probably didn't think about gender at all very, very believable. He just defaulted to playing his own gender, and the ease with which he realized he was doing that also suggests to me that he really wasn't considering the presence or absence of the boobies in character design. It can't rightly be sexism when sex is an utter non-factor, can it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagash View Post
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    A. Where do you see someone suggesting that?

    B. Where do you see someone suggesting that?

    C. Where do you see someone suggesting that?

    There's a whole lot of supposition there about motives that has no basis in reality, and strongly suggests that you barely skimmed the thread at all before posting.
    Last edited by Castaras; 2014-12-12 at 07:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    The reason it's sexist (though not a particularly problematic kind) is that Anonymouswizard was making a bunch of countries and made them all run by men without intending to, which, when not paired with any other sign of sexism in the world, gives the impression that women aren't suited for leadership. It was not intentional, but because that's the sort of miasma we live in it's unavoidable to some extent.
    It was also science fiction presented as "we've moved beyond prejudices", so yeah

    And no, no one's saying women who don't want to be engineers should be forced to be engineers. No one's suggesting men who don't want to be teachers or nurses should be forced to be either. The suggestion is that men should avoid doing stuff like making sexist jokes that make women not want to be in that field, passing up women for promotions, not picking women as proteges, and all the little things that make women decide not to enter a field. (Male nurses/teachers tend to be more a problem of it being considered "unmanly" and many men preferring to die rather than have that thought of them.
    Basically this. The problem isn't 'women aren't becoming engineers, we must fix this', but 'women aren't becoming engineers, what's dissuading them?', especially as those who do tend to be really good at it. It's something we'd likely leave alone if it was a 3:7 split, but the fact is that it's more of a 1:9 or 2:8 split.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Maybe most of his leaders (and most NPCs in fact) are male because that is what he is most comfortable Roleplaying. My DM has openly admitted he doesn't know how to portray a female as well as a male and thus usually uses males when he has to make a NPC on the spot.
    Unfortunately I enjoy playing female characters, I feel that it enhances immersion however, I'm not someone who would force someone else to, so I find this reason acceptable, if not ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagash View Post
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    True in the technical sense, but maybe there's this woman at my table who is kinda put off by it, and I try to stop it to be impolite. I listen to the concerns that my players have, because honestly, I like everyone I game with, and don't want to see them leave the table, or for it to be awkward at the table for them.

    [quote{ scrubbed }[/quote]

    Fun fact, the players I've known most likely to roleplay their way out of a situation and resort to "let's just kill them" have both been women. The only difference I've ever noted is that I'm faster than everyone at building characters, men and women alike. There are minor differences between male and female gamers, but it's the same as the differences between male and female physicists, in that they tend to like slightly different things outside of the hobby. At the gaming table it might as well be "men with boobs" and "women without them" for all the difference gender makes.

    { scrubbed }
    Um, I'd do so regardless of gender. Especially as my elves are as matriarchal as western culture has been traditionally patriarchal. In fact, the only one of my races with no gender problems are orcs, who do not associate their gender with their sex (and so have customs to say 'I'm male', 'I'm female', 'I'm niether', and 'I prefer not to say'). They have their own things going on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    It can't rightly be sexism when sex is an utter non-factor, can it?
    Of course not, the problem is it's nearly impossible to say with much confidence that "sex is an utter non-factor" given how subtle and unconscious a bias can be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Of course not, the problem is it's nearly impossible to say with much confidence that "sex is an utter non-factor" given how subtle and unconscious a bias can be.
    Recommended reading for those who don't understand or who dispute this:
    Understanding Implicit Bias
    FAQ on Implicit Bias
    Implicit stereotype
    or, you know, just search "implicit bias" and click on random links, like I did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    Well, of course I'm paranoid about everything. Hell, with Jeff as DM, I'd be paranoid even if we were playing a game set in The Magic Kiddie Funland of Perfectly Flat Planes and Sugar Plums.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Recommended reading for those who don't understand or who dispute this:
    Understanding Implicit Bias
    FAQ on Implicit Bias
    Implicit stereotype
    or, you know, just search "implicit bias" and click on random links, like I did.
    Cracked just two days ago published "5 Studies That Prove Racism Is Still Way Worse Than We Think," which is also a good read.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunningtub View Post
    So I know by now that most of you on here are experienced players and have encountered many problems/challenges, both in and out of game. So I have come to you all for advice.

    A good friend of mine is GMing for a group of 5, me, a friend of mine, and two of his friends I don't really know.
    Now heres the problem, he's racist/sexist and i only just found this out a month ago, and i mean racist/sexist in a "I've never experienced it so I dont care" way. (mostly because he is a wealthy, white dude.)

    The thing is, I like roleplaying challenges, playing a strange race, multiple personalities, differing sex's, etc. and I fear he may try to put down my character as a result. (he already has once, trying to make my "Brienne of Tarth" a pretty little princess)

    I just need advice on what to do, I've never encountered something like this before in my time RPing and it would help a lot for someone to help me stay friends with this guy, without poor Brienne being forced into a dress.
    Call him out on it. As you are male, he might listen.

    Just to let you know you are not alone:

    I had exactly that same situation, and it got gradually worse - first, all his NPC were male, (especially those in positions of power, some wives of less important men were allowed to exist), made our characters enter a country known for its sexism, then made this country, which should have only the medieval-fantasy-world level of sexim as sexist as Saudi Arabia, if not worse. (And this in spite of me having told him I didn't want to have anything to do with that country when the group formed).

    I complained. I was complaining all the time. (In character, but as I am a woman in real life, it was obvious that I resented the whole thing just as much as my character did) So, after that adventure, I thought he had gotten it, but THEN, he came up with the idea to turn our characters (at that time we were down to to players, me and a man) into orcs, a race whose males in that game considered the women of their race animals. He also made my character the property of the male player's character, which that player thankfully handled in a respectful way.
    That was when I asked GM guy whether he was intentionally trying to piss me off. He accused me of "closedmindedness" due to me not being open to learn about the interesting and wonderful misogyny of fantasy cultures.

    He also cited his female aquaintances as proof that "women like that" and of course, women are a monolith.

    That was when I told him that we should go separate ways.


    So, no, it will not get better, it IS sexism, and he might try harder to make your character conform to his idea of femininity the longer you let him do this unchallenged. It is no use trying to work against that within the game mechanics. You have to talk about it openly.

    I don't know if a male friendship can survive something like this, a friendship between a woman and a man definitely can't. One thing I can tell you, though: Don't want anymore. You will just become gradually angrier and angrier, which does not help reducing conflict. (I don't think the guy in my group would have been redeemable, but I still think I waited much too long until I called him out on his bull****)
    Last edited by Themrys; 2014-12-12 at 05:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Cracked just two days ago published "5 Studies That Prove Racism Is Still Way Worse Than We Think," which is also a good read.
    Oh yeah. That's where I got the bit on mentoring, I think. I sometimes forget my sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Call him out on it. As you are male, he might listen.

    Just to let you know you are not alone:

    I had exactly that same situation, and it got gradually worse - first, all his NPC were male, (especially those in positions of power, some wives of less important men were allowed to exist), made our characters enter a country known for its sexism, then made this country, which should have only the medieval-fantasy-world level of sexim as sexist as Saudi Arabia, if not worse. (And this in spite of me having told him I didn't want to have anything to do with that country when the group formed).

    I complained. I was complaining all the time. (In character, but as I am a woman in real life, it was obvious that I resented the whole thing just as much as my character did) So, after that adventure, I thought he had gotten it, but THEN, he came up with the idea to turn our characters (at that time we were down to to players, me and a man) into orcs, a race whose males in that game considered the women of their race animals. He also made my character the property of the male player's character, which that player thankfully handled in a respectful way.
    That was when I asked GM guy whether he was intentionally trying to piss me off. He accused me of "closedmindedness" due to me not being open to learn about the interesting and wonderful misogyny of fantasy cultures.

    He also cited his female aquaintances as proof that "women like that" and of course, women are a monolith.

    That was when I told him that we should go separate ways.


    So, no, it will not get better, it IS sexism, and he might try harder to make your character conform to his idea of femininity the longer you let him do this unchallenged. It is no use trying to work against that within the game mechanics. You have to talk about it openly.

    I don't know if a male friendship can survive something like this, a friendship between a woman and a man definitely can't. One thing I can tell you, though: Don't want anymore. You will just become gradually angrier and angrier, which does not help reducing conflict. (I don't think the guy in my group would have been redeemable, but I still think I waited much too long until I called him out on his bull****)
    Ugh. Yeah, that's intollerable.

    I wouldn't be sure that everyone like that is unchangeable, and it certainly depends on age. I know I held at least a few obnoxious opinions in middle and high school, mostly because nobody called me on them.

    Being a guy calling out a guy might help, but I'm not certain. I don't get called a humorless harpy like some of my female friends do, but I do get called a *****, a white knight, and various other terms to imply I'm less than manly. Most people who hold explicit sexist/racist/other-ist views don't like getting called on them by anyone. Women/blacks/gays/etc. are ignored because they're not worth listening to and men/whites/straights/etc. are ignored because they're traitors.

    That said, I still encourage talking to the guy if you think its at all possible you might get through to him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
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