Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 86
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default See this what do/alignment question

    You are a LG paladin. While marching on your way to the next village, where something is attacking local sheeps, you are a witness to {scrubbed}.

    What do you do? Do not read spoiler before you have a well constructed reply.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Bullies too are victims. If you smite them, you basically fall. How should LG react to such a situation?
    Last edited by Haruki-kun; 2014-12-13 at 10:50 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    This thread is sort of a can of worms, you know that right?

    That said, a paladin in my hands would wade in with the nonlethal damage in full swing, he doesnt have time for this crap. Once they are subdued its to the local authorities with them, or at least a nearby church or something with a note detailing what he witnessed and did.

    Then its back on the road to kill slay threats to civilisation and innocents and other heroic duties. He'll check back in later to make sure everyone was sorted out properly and if not, will try to find time to discipline them himself. But priorities being what they are, chances would be theres some dragon or necromancer or something that needs to be dealt with more immediately than horrible children.
    To be honest if he heard that they were continually getting out of hand and they refused to lern their lesson he would have fewer and fewer qualms about responding with reasonable force. He's a knight that defends the innocent, not a damned preacher.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kelb_Panthera's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Seeing as I'm almost certainly larger and far more imposing than either of the bullies; what with being clad in heavy armor, toting a large sword, and riding on the back of a radiant steed; I simply pull them apart (not a combat action) and demand an explanation, perhaps with an intimidate check. After at least an attempt to talk to them I'd walk the victim the remainder of the distance back to the village (or her outlying home if it's nearby) after admonishing the other girls to go about their business. Then continue on with the quest.

    While bullying isn't a minor issue for the people involved, it -is- a minor issue compared to some lethal beasty running around and/or people's livelihoods being threatened. It's certainly -far- beneath the notice of a soldier against the darkness like a paladin. Pass that noise off to a cleric or parish priest (NPC adept or expert). I wasn't given the ability to smite so that I could help teenagers deal with their crap.
    I am not seaweed. That's a B.

    Praise I've received
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

    Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    If I as a paladin, a trained warrior with weapons and armor, showed up then I could very easily intimidate the bullies to leave without using violence (because I have a sword and they are unarmed), if it doesn't work then I doubt a kick in the stomach would do the trick. Once they've run home I'd ask the bullied victim what it was about and if she needs help, and I'd probably offer to let her tag along to the village I'm headed to and give her some martial technique advice for self defense in the future.
    I may not be able to solve the problem of bullying forever, but if I can help her fend for herself in my absence then that's what I'll do.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Neat answers.

    I posted this because:
    - this vid really shocked me
    - i have problems roleplaying LG
    - want to troll my PCs with such an event or two when GMing

    The thing is in character I'd want to practically re-educate all three. Turn the victim into some sort of a monk and dig dig dig to find the reasons why the bullies are as they are. Which is not LG, especially given the beasties that roam the land.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Southeast
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Not every problem can be solved with an afterschool special. The bullies I have known were never "curable" they either grew out of it (like many personality flaws caused by the shallowness of youth) or they didn't. I have never known a bully to change their behavior because of "the magic of friendship."
    Hmm, seem to have left the last letter out of my name I wonder if I can change that somehow...

    Vestige by Marlowe http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...2&postcount=70

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Solaris's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Neither here nor there
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarlek Flamehai View Post
    Not every problem can be solved with an afterschool special. The bullies I have known were never "curable" they either grew out of it (like many personality flaws caused by the shallowness of youth) or they didn't. I have never known a bully to change their behavior because of "the magic of friendship."
    This is very true in the real world.

    However, thanks to D&D and the BoED, we can use Diplomacy to brainwash people, which isn't creepy at all.

    I use my Diplomancy to convince the parents of the bullies to come along, and the bullies that it's in their best interest to do so. Not only does it give me greater opportunity while not keeping me from pursuing my mission, seeing more of the world is generally good for young people. From there it's only a matter of time and rolling before they see the light. After the adventure, I return 'em to their village changed people.
    Last edited by Solaris; 2014-12-12 at 10:49 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarlek Flamehai View Post
    Not every problem can be solved with an afterschool special. The bullies I have known were never "curable" they either grew out of it (like many personality flaws caused by the shallowness of youth) or they didn't. I have never known a bully to change their behavior because of "the magic of friendship."
    No. But I've known two who changed their behavior because of a punch in the nose.

    My paladin stops them, without drawing a weapon. (And I have not watched and will not watch the video.) Unless the paladin has teaching skills, that ends his duties. Stopping one act does not imply taking on the job of local cop or spiritual advisor for the next year.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Michael7123's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    East of the Rockies
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Two words.

    Intimidate check.

    Maybe use a heal light wounds on the victim if it was needed, but probably not.

    Then back to saving the world.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Sith_Happens's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Dromund Kaas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Seeing as I'm almost certainly larger and far more imposing than either of the bullies; what with being clad in heavy armor, toting a large sword, and riding on the back of a radiant steed; I simply pull them apart (not a combat action) and demand an explanation, perhaps with an intimidate check. After at least an attempt to talk to them I'd walk the victim the remainder of the distance back to the village (or her outlying home if it's nearby) after admonishing the other girls to go about their business. Then continue on with the quest.

    While bullying isn't a minor issue for the people involved, it -is- a minor issue compared to some lethal beasty running around and/or people's livelihoods being threatened. It's certainly -far- beneath the notice of a soldier against the darkness like a paladin. Pass that noise off to a cleric or parish priest (NPC adept or expert). I wasn't given the ability to smite so that I could help teenagers deal with their crap.
    This.

    That said, I object to your spoiler. There's nothing about Smite Evil that precludes dealing nonlethal damage.
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    There is nonlethal damage for a reason

    I guarantee you, 90% of the parties you drop this on won't go full-on Attack Pattern Alpha on two peasant bullies. They'll send the fighter over with a quickly-acquired heavy stick, tell them to knock it off, then whack them around if they somehow ignore the Intimidate check.

    With the casters, rogue, ranger, etc. in full-on Attack Pattern Alpha buffed-up +5 Swords of Ass-Kicking drawn just in case this is a trap. Because this is D&D and anything that's not a level-appropriate random combat encounter is probably a trap.


    Also, I object to the notion that such plebeian matters are somehow "below" a paladin. Would you walk past a wounded Commoner without healing them just because they're a Commoner and such people are "beneath" you? Would you ignore the mugging behind the tavern because the alcoholic brigand is hardly a world-shattering evil?

    I'd be more inclined to make a Paladin fall after a (long) history of such behavior than the classic "if you do what's right, you'll Fall, because I as the DM have engineered an insidious Catch-22! (*twirls mustache*)" sort of nonsense. Lawful Good paladins don't have to be polite or patient, but they should at least be altruistic (because why else would they BE paladins), and should definitely be upholding the law. Because c'mon, these examples take up 15 seconds, tops.

    Then again, it kinda boils down to which god you support. St. Cuthbert would probably get fed up with his paladin ignoring matters of JUSTICE, whereas Wee Jas probably wouldn't care...it's always weird to me that people acknowledge Clerics as having different tenants and opinions, but Paladins are just...Paladins.
    Last edited by Milodiah; 2014-12-12 at 12:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Do not try a linear campaign, without some discussion with them. Players very often look at your hooks and then try to accomplish it in a different way, not touch it, try to do the complete opposite, or somehow set it on fire.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Solaris's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Neither here nor there
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    Also, I object to the notion that such plebeian matters are somehow "below" a paladin. Would you walk past a wounded Commoner without healing them just because they're a Commoner and such people are "beneath" you? Would you ignore the mugging behind the tavern because the alcoholic brigand is hardly a world-shattering evil?

    I'd be more inclined to make a Paladin fall after a (long) history of such behavior than the classic "if you do what's right, you'll Fall, because I as the DM have engineered an insidious Catch-22! (*twirls mustache*)" sort of nonsense. Lawful Good paladins don't have to be polite or patient, but they should at least be altruistic (because why else would they BE paladins), and should definitely be upholding the law. Because c'mon, these examples take up 15 seconds, tops.

    Then again, it kinda boils down to which god you support. St. Cuthbert would probably get fed up with his paladin ignoring matters of JUSTICE, whereas Wee Jas probably wouldn't care...it's always weird to me that people acknowledge Clerics as having different tenants and opinions, but Paladins are just...Paladins.
    Agreed. While the Paladin can't save everyone, that doesn't mean he shouldn't at least give it his best shot.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kelb_Panthera's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    This.

    That said, I object to your spoiler. There's nothing about Smite Evil that precludes dealing nonlethal damage.
    No but beating on children isn't the first course of action that comes to mind when I'm wearing steel plates around all my vitals and they're completely incapable of doing me harm. As a rogue I might be inclined to give 'em a little tap with a blackjack if they're approaching the age of majority since they -could- conceivably do me real harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milodiah View Post
    There is nonlethal damage for a reason

    I guarantee you, 90% of the parties you drop this on won't go full-on Attack Pattern Alpha on two peasant bullies. They'll send the fighter over with a quickly-acquired heavy stick, tell them to knock it off, then whack them around if they somehow ignore the Intimidate check.

    With the casters, rogue, ranger, etc. in full-on Attack Pattern Alpha buffed-up +5 Swords of Ass-Kicking drawn just in case this is a trap. Because this is D&D and anything that's not a level-appropriate random combat encounter is probably a trap.
    The paranoia I thoroughly approve of. Not so much the steel clad warrior clubing a couple of idiot teenagers.


    Also, I object to the notion that such plebeian matters are somehow "below" a paladin. Would you walk past a wounded Commoner without healing them just because they're a Commoner and such people are "beneath" you? Would you ignore the mugging behind the tavern because the alcoholic brigand is hardly a world-shattering evil?
    Two things:

    I never said to ignore the situation, just to pass it on to someone more suitable to the task. A paladin's skill set and abiliity is geared to doing lethal battle with truly evil foes, not counseling half-wit children.

    Of course a paladin should offer healing to any wounded persons he happens upon, however he shouldn't be going out of his way to find wounded people under normal circumstances. Again, not his wheelhouse. Same goes for muggers. A paladin is not a paramedic or a cop. He's a soldier in the war against evil.

    I'd be more inclined to make a Paladin fall after a (long) history of such behavior than the classic "if you do what's right, you'll Fall, because I as the DM have engineered an insidious Catch-22! (*twirls mustache*)" sort of nonsense. Lawful Good paladins don't have to be polite or patient, but they should at least be altruistic (because why else would they BE paladins), and should definitely be upholding the law. Because c'mon, these examples take up 15 seconds, tops.
    I agree. A paladin that sees himself as -too- good to bother with the common folk, even when they're suffering right in front of him. Probably -should- fall. It's not a violation of the code but such consistent behavior will lead to an alignment shift to LN as it represents a mind utterly consumed by duty to the exclusion of all else.

    Then again, it kinda boils down to which god you support. St. Cuthbert would probably get fed up with his paladin ignoring matters of JUSTICE, whereas Wee Jas probably wouldn't care...it's always weird to me that people acknowledge Clerics as having different tenants and opinions, but Paladins are just...Paladins.
    Eeeeehhhhhhh

    Maybe. In 3.5 the paladin's call and code don't come from the gods (except in FR) so they are, on a fundamental level, all coming from the same place. That place is certainly -colored- by whatever god they follow, if any, but their primary concern is finding and destroying evil.

    I'm given to understand that this is not the case in PF but I"m not overmuch familiar.
    I am not seaweed. That's a B.

    Praise I've received
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

    Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Red Fel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    As some posters have pointed out already, the OP seems to presume a false dichotomy: Your Paladin either leaves the victim to suffer or goes full-on murderhobo. And again, as others have pointed out, that's simply not so. There's a broad spectrum of options available.

    Think of Superman catching neighborhood bullies. I'm sure it must have happened on at least one occasion in the comics. Him, or any other recognizable superhero. Two kids picking on a third kid. Dude in spandex shows up, scowls, shakes head. Bullies look terrified, and bail. (As others have mentioned, "Intimidate check.") No violence required - heck, no words required. You're a freaking Paladin - a literal knight in shining armor. Your sword shouldn't be out for a couple of neighborhood thugs.

    Want to be aggressive? Fine. Provoke an attack. Once they utterly fail to hurt you, laugh until they slink away. Or, a few sharp, non-lethal blows. Or, buff the victim and let the victim fight back.

    Don't want to get involved at all? You monster. Fine. After the fight is over, approach the victim, patch up his wounds. Talk to him. Remind him that he has worth as a person, that bad people can't take that away. Remind him that he can stand up for himself, but also that there's no shame in running from a fight you can't win. If you don't want to be the shield that protects the victim, you can at least be the open hand that comforts him.

    Point is, it's not "ignore or resort to murder." There's a lot to be done here.

    As an aside: Kelb, I question your assumption that a Paladin's skillset isn't "counseling half-wit children." I think that's a characterization issue. My Paladins are all about helping people. Sometimes, that means using weapons. Sometimes, it means working the farm. Sometimes, it means giving them a shoulder to cry on, or being there to listen, or any number of other after school specials. I like playing Paladins with social skills, and I don't just take them because a Paladin has a use for Cha; I take them because it makes sense for someone whose role in life is to protect the innocent to have a way to comfort and inspire them. My Paladins aren't just soldiers in the war against Evil; they're protectors in the battle to save Good. And that means the occasional hug.

    My Paladins are huggers, is what I'm trying to say.
    My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.

    Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.

    My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Banned
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2013

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinjata View Post

    What do you do? Do not read spoiler before you have a well constructed reply.
    Kinda depends on what you think good is, and what type of paladin you are too.

    For example I would be fine with:

    1.Pathetic domestic disputes, even more so the actions of children, are beneath me. I'm a paladin, a holy warrior vs evil. I'm not a babysitter, a teacher or even a cleric. I'd be fine with ignoring it.

    2.Survival of the Fittest I'm a paladin that believes in strength, of mind and spirit and faith and body. I became a paladin by hard work and training, the very day I decided to be one of the strong. People that choose to be weak victims are left to their own devices. Again, I'd ignore it.

    3.Social Order I believe in a strong social order. And dislike anyone who does not fit into society. People must fit into society, not society to fit into people. The bullies are the majority, the strong social order, so they have both the right and duty to pick on the others who choose not to fit in. Again, ignore.

    Now, fair warning: my view don't follow the couple of scribbles in a D&D book on page 42 written years ago where someone who has radically different view then I do, wrote their bias in the book as ''official''. So, just don't bother saying ''oh on page 42 it says''.
    Last edited by jedipotter; 2014-12-12 at 04:24 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Sith_Happens's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Dromund Kaas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Kinda depends on what you think good is, and what type of paladin you are too.

    For example I would be fine with:

    1.Pathetic domestic disputes, even more so the actions of children, are beneath me. I'm a paladin, a holy warrior vs evil. I'm not a babysitter, a teacher or even a cleric. I'd be fine with ignoring it.

    2.Survival of the Fittest I'm a paladin that believes in strength, of mind and spirit and faith and body. I became a paladin by hard work and training, the very day I decided to be one of the strong. People that choose to be weak victims are left to their own devices. Again, I'd ignore it.

    3.Social Order I believe in a strong social order. And dislike anyone who does not fit into society. People must fit into society, not society to fit into people. The bullies are the majority, the strong social order, so they have both the right and duty to pick on the others who choose not to fit in. Again, ignore.

    Now, fair warning: my view don't follow the couple of scribbles in a D&D book on page 42 written years ago where someone who has radically different view then I do, wrote their bias in the book as ''official''. So, just don't bother saying ''oh on page 42 it says''.
    Um... okay. I personally can't wrap my head how 2 or 3 is anything but the exact opposite of Paladinly no matter how severely you houserule the code or the alignment system itself, but if you can then more power to you I guess.
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Banned
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2013

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Um... okay. I personally can't wrap my head how 2 or 3 is anything but the exact opposite of Paladinly no matter how severely you houserule the code or the alignment system itself, but if you can then more power to you I guess.
    2.Survival of the Fittest. This is the ''give the man a fish he eats for one meal, teach the man to fish and he can feed himself for life.'' A paladin can't body guard everyone in the world, it's up to each and every ''everyone'' to defend themselves. To teach someone ''just give in'' or ''call for help'' when attacked is wrong, and sooner or later that will lead to bad things happening to them. There will not always be help right around the corner. It's the big difference between ''the orc thug attacked my farm so I shot him in the head with a crossbow'' and ''local farm family murdered by orc thug''.

    The paladin only defends the truly helpless ones: small children, the elderly, the wounded and so on. Everyone one else from 13 to 60 only gets the paladins aid. The paladin will help the person do a needed task, but not do it for them.

    3.Social Order This is the more Lawful paladin that believes in order. And society provides order. And if an individual chooses to go against that order, then they are choosing to make themselves a target. They are free to do so, of course, but the burden is on their head.

    In most cases, even if you don't 100% believe in the social order, you should follow it. Take the Winter Ball. It's a formal affair. Period. You want to go to the ball, then you must dress up. Period. If you don't like it, then your free to not go to the Winter Ball....your even free to make a ''dress like trash'' ball if you wish.

    And in the bigger picture you should not stay in a place that does not fit your views. If your in Blood Town where they eat meat all the time, you as a grass eater would be better off moving to another place.

    And for the OP example attack: you should have protected yourself in advance. If you knew ''maybe'' someone did not ''maybe'' like you, you should have protected yourself. Don't be caught alone. Keep and find allies close by. Again, the burden of defense is on the person.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Solaris's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Neither here nor there
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    1.Pathetic domestic disputes, even more so the actions of children, are beneath me. I'm a paladin, a holy warrior vs evil. I'm not a babysitter, a teacher or even a cleric. I'd be fine with ignoring it.
    'Cause "Puny Mortals" is totally how a holy warrior ought to be addressing those less than him.
    I can see passing this up if you have a reason to believe your mission is that pressing - but in that case, you'd better have a good reason for having slept last night instead of riding hard all night, 'cause there's no reason you can't take ten minutes to deal with this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    2.Survival of the Fittest I'm a paladin that believes in strength, of mind and spirit and faith and body. I became a paladin by hard work and training, the very day I decided to be one of the strong. People that choose to be weak victims are left to their own devices. Again, I'd ignore it.
    That's... that's not remotely LG, much less the sort of paragon of good a paladin should be.
    At best it's CG (libertarian-style). At best. This might surprise you, but (and this is speaking as a former Army sergeant of the old breed who's been reprimanded more than once for being... less than kindly) letting people crumble is not going to help them levitate by their bootstraps.
    No, really. I'm all for people defending themselves. I'll freely dispense advice, pointers, and training on self-defense borne from my military experience. But it's straight up bull to sneer at someone as being weak just because they're getting their asses handed to them. It may well be that you were able to become a mighty and awesome champion of justice without any help... but probably not. Realistically, not.
    So how can you, mighty champion of justice, justify passing up the opportunity to right a wrong that's going down right in front of your eyes?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    3.Social Order I believe in a strong social order. And dislike anyone who does not fit into society. People must fit into society, not society to fit into people. The bullies are the majority, the strong social order, so they have both the right and duty to pick on the others who choose not to fit in. Again, ignore.
    You're, again, missing the good. Where's the altruism necessary for a paladin? Might does not make right. If it did, there'd be no need for a paladin to exist. Yes, paladins have to be lawful - but that doesn't mean they have to do anything but resist a genocidal, evil government.
    Furthermore, bullies are not the accepted social order. They're an aberration that's only barely tolerated by the social order, and then only because many authority figures in those bizarre environments wherein we throw children and expect them to emerge non-sociopaths are outright lazy. Thus, your pseudo-logic is doomed from the very conception on practically every possible front.

    And by the logic that it's the victim's fault for being caught unawares and defenseless... Do I really need to follow this through to its conclusion, or can we skip straight to "You're blaming the victim, and that's both morally and logically wrong" without resorting to rape analogies?

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kitten Champion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Any real-world responsible adult would have some idea of how to react to such a situation... and hopefully none of which involves drawing a weapon. Said adult might not want to get involved, because apathy is many a persons' watchword, but for someone subscribing to the concept of LG - much less a paladin - I would expect a greater determination and impetus to do what they believe is right when confronted with injustice. Even when they'd much rather drop their sword and shield, throw off their armour, slip into a warm bath to get the goblin blood out their hair, flop onto a cozy inn mattress, and sleep like they've just been enchanted.

    They're personable and chivalrous, otherwise what's the point?

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    I swoop in and keep the king's peace however he wants it kept, whether that means putting on a saturday morning special for these kids or just killing them all off hand.
    It always amazes me how often people on forums would rather accuse you of misreading their posts with malice than re-explain their ideas with clarity.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Banned
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2013

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    'Cause "Puny Mortals" is totally how a holy warrior ought to be addressing those less than him.
    This is the downfall of many a paladin from many a DM: they think being good means your a slave to every event that happens within your sight and you should always drop everything to do Disney Good.

    Now note, I'm not saying that good people should not do it, just that it is not a paladins job. The same way you don't send a SWAT team member to open someones locked car or you don't send an army ranger to help someone find a lost cell phone. Now you could send them sure, or they might volunteer or even choose to do the action themselves....but my point is that it is not a ''do this or fall from paladin status'' type thing. And there are plenty of non-paladin good people to send to do minor things.

    Lets take the military spin: Private Mallone is told to guard a door and left alone. Ten minutes later Sally comes over and asks her help as her kitty is stuck in a tree. Does Private Mallone disobey orders and leave his post just as ''helping a little girl'' as it is the right thing to do? Or is his job of being a solder more important then doing minor good acts?

    A paladin is an elite warrior, his job is to fight big evil threats....not be a good servant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    That's... that's not remotely LG, much less the sort of paragon of good a paladin should be.
    No, really. I'm all for people defending themselves. I'll freely dispense advice, pointers, and training on self-defense borne from my military experience. But it's straight up bull to sneer at someone as being weak just because they're getting their asses handed to them. It may well be that you were able to become a mighty and awesome champion of justice without any help... but probably not. Realistically, not.
    So how can you, mighty champion of justice, justify passing up the opportunity to right a wrong that's going down right in front of your eyes?
    The good paladin is seeing a different wrong: the wrong of weakness. The victim chose to be a victim, and that is there choice. And it makes them weak. Again a paladin might help someone in need, but is not going to fight their fight for them.

    So it's not saying they are weak as they are loosing a fight, it's more saying they are weak as they refuse to fight and worse are not ready. It comes back to again that the paladin wants people to know how to fish, and does not just want to hand out free fish every day.

    For example, take Alyssa, 13 years old. She is in great shape and works out regularly and eats good food. She is quite well read on a wide range of topics. She has taken several self defense classes. Several first aid classes. Several survival classes. She has had basic weapons and gun training, she owns plenty of knives and a gun. She has been taught several skills deemed necessary, like she can change a car tire or jump a car that won't start, she knows how to treat and handle dogs, and so forth. And both her parents keep on top of her and make sure that all of the above skills are razor sharp.

    Then take Zoe 13 too. She is out of shape and eat garbage...and knows very little other then what she half remembers from watching TV or maybe vaguely half remembers learning about in school(so she might know some geometry).

    Now take any traumatic event: Who is has a better chance of dealing with anything? Say the girl and her aunt get a flat tire way out on route 99. Well the aunt and Zoe call for help on their cells and just sit in the car, helpless, until help arrives. Meanwhile Alyssa calls to let everyone know what happened while she is changing the tire on the car. (true story) And a couple minutes later the aunt and Alyssa are well on their way. And later the aunt is beyond amazed that Alyssa knew exactly what to do and how to do it. And she tells the story of how Alyssa was very clam and confidant with a very good ''don't worry aunt, I got this''.

    Now see, the paladin wants a world were all little girls are Alyssas and not Zoes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    You're, again, missing the good. Where's the altruism necessary for a paladin? Might does not make right. If it did, there'd be no need for a paladin to exist. Yes, paladins have to be lawful - but that doesn't mean they have to do anything but resist a genocidal, evil government.
    Well, not a genocidal, evil government, sure.....but they have to support any other government. But then politics is hard and there is way too much gray. And few governments do ''pure evil'', it's more most governments are just ''not so good'' or they ''Try''.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Furthermore, bullies are not the accepted social order. They're an aberration that's only barely tolerated by the social order, and then only because many authority figures in those bizarre environments wherein we throw children and expect them to emerge non-sociopaths are outright lazy. Thus, your pseudo-logic is doomed from the very conception on practically every possible front.
    Bullies are the accepted social order....just look around. they are not ''barely tolerated'', they are rewarded.

    Take the classic: Quarterback Zack is a bully to Nerd Nate. And Nate ''does the supposed right thing'' and tells. Almost immediately no one believes it, why Zack is such a nice young boy and from a good family. Almost half of the people are very apathetic and just ignore it as ''eh, boys will be boys'' and worse almost half of the people that are left are football zombies and all they care about is the ''big game Saturday Night'' and making sure the ''cool football team wins''. And then the couple people that are left are 100% on Zacks side as they don't want to ''hurt his future'' with this bad stuff and want to just make it go away. Your lucky to find even one person to stand up and support Nate.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    And by the logic that it's the victim's fault for being caught unawares and defenseless... Do I really need to follow this through to its conclusion, or can we skip straight to "You're blaming the victim, and that's both morally and logically wrong" without resorting to rape analogies?
    It is the victims fault for being a victim. It's a choice. If you do something that is high risk, that is all on you. And if your not prepared, then your just asking to be in trouble.

    Take Alyssa and Zoe, just going to the mall. Zoe has her purse and cell phone and nothing else of real use. Alyssa has her purse, cell phone, pepper spray and three knives(one in her purse, one hidden on her body ''for them to find'' and one ''hidden on her body for them to likely not find''). Zoe just knows random pop culture trivia. Alyssa knows lots of self defense moves and lots of soft spots and weak spots to exploit on any human being...and that is not even using her knife. Zoe is utterly unaware of anything around her as she is texting all the time. Alyssa is always keenly aware of where she is, other people, and places and objects. Zoe just ''does whatever she wants'' and ignores her parents. Alyssa has set check in times where she must check in (and it has been years sense she missed one) and by her own choice she keeps her parents ''in the loop'' about every 15 minutes she is in ''public''(forcing her dad to delete 200 posts, that he read, a night, sigh).

    So if a scarey guy jumps out of the bushes...who is going to have a better chance?

    And this does not even mention that Alyssa knows plenty of mental self defense too. If worst come to worse, she knows how to act, what to say and what to do to manipulate someone to her advantage. And she is told, all most daily, that ''nothing is more important then you coming home safely to us. You must do whatever you need to do to keep yourself safe and come home. We support you 100%''.

    And again, the paladin wants every girl in the world to be like Alyssa....and not Zoe.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Banned
     
    Sartharina's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinjata View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Bullies too are victims. If you smite them, you basically fall. How should LG react to such a situation?
    In response to the spoiler - no, they are not. They immediately and permanently give up their 'victim' status the moment they attack and prey on someone weaker than them without provocation.

    Given that this is an all-out assault... sword through the chest, Smiting optional. Bullies cannot be tolerated, and the lesson an attempt at mercy would provide is 'just make sure you're the biggest fish around', instead of the importance of 'Don't be a bully." (Or maybe I just lack sympathy for abusive 'children' after seeing a teenager rape an elderly woman to death at a bus stop.)
    Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-12-12 at 08:35 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Palegreenpants's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Honestly, the LG thing to do would be to separate all the girls, then exit with the victim for consolation, or have some serious conversation with all of them right there. No combat necessary. This is the sort of thing should be peanuts to a paladin. Thwack major evil, and solve small-scale jazz in your off time.

    Edit: As a story-building point, the victim might make a good squire/apprentice. Oh, story branches everywhere!
    Last edited by Palegreenpants; 2014-12-12 at 08:42 PM.
    Check out:
    My Mortal Overhaul for Fifth edition.
    My custom filigree character sheets for 5th Edition.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Kinda depends on what you think good is, and what type of paladin you are too.

    For example I would be fine with:

    1.Pathetic domestic disputes, even more so the actions of children, are beneath me. I'm a paladin, a holy warrior vs evil. I'm not a babysitter, a teacher or even a cleric. I'd be fine with ignoring it.

    2.Survival of the Fittest I'm a paladin that believes in strength, of mind and spirit and faith and body. I became a paladin by hard work and training, the very day I decided to be one of the strong. People that choose to be weak victims are left to their own devices. Again, I'd ignore it.

    3.Social Order I believe in a strong social order. And dislike anyone who does not fit into society. People must fit into society, not society to fit into people. The bullies are the majority, the strong social order, so they have both the right and duty to pick on the others who choose not to fit in. Again, ignore.

    Now, fair warning: my view don't follow the couple of scribbles in a D&D book on page 42 written years ago where someone who has radically different view then I do, wrote their bias in the book as ''official''. So, just don't bother saying ''oh on page 42 it says''.
    I understand that different people have different views. In my game, anyone who does 1 is not a paladin, anyone who does 1 and 3 is not Good, and anyone who does 1 and 2 is not Lawful.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Banned
     
    Sartharina's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I understand that different people have different views. In my game, anyone who does 1 is not a paladin, anyone who does 1 and 3 is not Good, and anyone who does 1 and 2 is not Lawful.
    Anyone who believes in 2 is a Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter.

    Paladins of Freedom and Honor recognize that becoming strong is traumatic, and not for everyone. They subject themselves to the trials and tribulations to attain strength so others don't have to.

    The Paladin Code, not their alignment, requires them to put at least a token effort into resolving the situation. After all - all it takes for Evil to Triumph is for Good people to do nothing. Paladins go above and beyond the call, and cannot afford to Do Nothing. (But they may put it on the To Do list, or delegate it to another if it's urgent and they are not able to handle a situation immediately)

    A paladin is not responsible for all domestic disputes everywhere... but they ARE responsible for everything that happens around them. They are where they are for a reason, and they cannot shirk their duty.
    Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-12-12 at 08:43 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Palegreenpants's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I understand that different people have different views. In my game, anyone who does 1 is not a paladin, anyone who does 1 and 3 is not Good, and anyone who does 1 and 2 is not Lawful.
    In my mind, none of those points, as thus defined and accepted, are truly hallmarks of goodness. If a paladin cannot selflessly serve good and order at all levels of society, they're doing it wrong.
    Last edited by Palegreenpants; 2014-12-12 at 08:46 PM.
    Check out:
    My Mortal Overhaul for Fifth edition.
    My custom filigree character sheets for 5th Edition.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    London
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    It is the victims fault for being a victim. It's a choice. If you do something that is high risk, that is all on you. And if your not prepared, then your just asking to be in trouble.
    Any Lawful society assumes that any and all of its members have the right to safety, mostly regardless of preparedness. Paladins are lawful and therefore their code should force them to protect those that live in society, no matter their ability to defend themselves or their own alignment.

    Moreover I find it strange to assume that just because someone is prepared means they will not become a victim of a crime. There are always going to be some crimes one is not prepared for, random chance always plays a part and anyone can find themselves in a bad spot. Any adventuring party knows that. It is not the paladin's job to choose who in his society to protect and who should and should not suffer a crime. It is his job to wade in and sort out the situation with the best intentions as his code, order or god dictate.
    Last edited by Akulatraxis; 2014-12-12 at 09:11 PM.
    "Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced!" -Illidan Stormrage the Demon Hunter

    "If I am cut do I not feel the logical imprint of the injury? If I am thus injured do I not express my pain via an auditory request for aid?" -Captured Ambassador from the United Artificial Construct Commission.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Banned
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2013

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I understand that different people have different views. In my game, anyone who does 1 is not a paladin, anyone who does 1 and 3 is not Good, and anyone who does 1 and 2 is not Lawful.
    So is your view on 1. just that a paladin must be doing good 24/7? Is nothing too trivial for the paladin? And I don't want to go to the extreme of ''when a dragon attacks the city the paladin instead chooses to read a book to some school kids to teach them a good lesson'' as that is just a dumb argument.

    But do you see a paladin, a divine holy warrior, getting up in the morning and putting on their armor and shield and weapon and then getting their mount and heading off around town.....too look for incredibly minor acts of good they can do. You don't think the other good people should take care of the ''little stuff''?

    And if 1. is not good, are you saying all good people must do good at all times(other then emergencies). So are you going down the path that a good person would give [I]every last copper they have[/I to help others and be poor. And anyone that does not do so, and live poor, is not good?

    And if you will jump back and say the good person only needs to do ''a little good'', well who decides what ''a little is''? If someone needs help in the form of money a good person should give it....but ok how much? And if your going to say ''what they can afford'', well who decides that?

    Is the paladin that sells his armor and weapons to feed some hungry people good, and the paladin that says ''sorry I must keep my weapons and armor'' then not good?

    How is 3. not good?

    How is 1. not Lawful. Having a personal code of ''I don't get involved with little stuff'' is very lawful. It prevents the paladin from running around endlessly from dawn to dusk ''doing good'' every second.

    And 2. seems lawful, how is it not?

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Banned
     
    Sartharina's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    So is your view on 1. just that a paladin must be doing good 24/7? Is nothing too trivial for the paladin? And I don't want to go to the extreme of ''when a dragon attacks the city the paladin instead chooses to read a book to some school kids to teach them a good lesson'' as that is just a dumb argument.

    But do you see a paladin, a divine holy warrior, getting up in the morning and putting on their armor and shield and weapon and then getting their mount and heading off around town.....too look for incredibly minor acts of good they can do. You don't think the other good people should take care of the ''little stuff''?

    And if 1. is not good, are you saying all good people must do good at all times(other then emergencies). So are you going down the path that a good person would give every last copper they have to help others and be poor. And anyone that does not do so, and live poor, is not good?
    Paladins are not only Good - it's their Code, not Alignment, that requires them to act. And even then, it's not "Get up in the morning, then go looking around town for Evil to quell" - it's "When going out and about on your business, keep an eye open for Evil to quell and Good to encourage." Mr. Paladin wouldn't be hunting down all the little things - but he won't overlook it when the little things plop down right in front of him.

    And we're not talking about "Doing Good" here - we're talking about "Stopping Evil"
    How is 3. not good?
    Because it's Tyranny. "Stand up for what's right, even if you're standing alone". "What's right is not always popular. What's popular is not always right"
    How is 1. not Lawful. Having a personal code of ''I don't get involved with little stuff'' is very lawful. It prevents the paladin from running around endlessly from dawn to dusk ''doing good'' every second.
    Because 'little stuff' isn't defined, and is nothing but a can of loopholes.
    And 2. seems lawful, how is it not?
    Because it's individual-driven, and entirely Evil.
    Last edited by Sartharina; 2014-12-12 at 09:25 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Banned
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2013

    Default Re: See this what do/alignment question

    Quote Originally Posted by Akulatraxis View Post
    Any Lawful society assumes that any and all of its members have the right to safety, mostly regardless of preparedness. Paladins are lawful and therefore their code should force them to protect those that live in society, no matter their ability to defend themselves or their own alignment.
    The protection is the problem though. You want everyone to be strong and able to stand up for themselves, if you ''protect'' people too much, they become helpless.

    You don't want the paladin running over and killing every foe before the other good people can even draw their weapons. They will never get things like experience, confidence and ''on the job training'' if they never draw a weapon. The same way you don't want people just sitting back and doing nothing when a foe attacks and have them say ''oh just call our servant lap dog paladin to take care of it.''

    Again, it's the fight a foe for some one and you protect them for the moment. Teach them how to fight and stand up for themselves and they are protected for life.



    Quote Originally Posted by Akulatraxis View Post

    Moreover I find it strange to assume that just because someone is prepared means they will not become a victim of a crime. There are always going to be some crimes one is not prepared for, random chance always plays a part and anyone can find themselves in a bad spot. Any adventuring party knows that. It is not the paladin's job to choose who in his society to protect and who should and should not suffer a crime. It is his job to wade in and sort out the situation with the best intentions as his code, order or god dictate.
    Very few prepared people become victims of crimes. They know what to do to avoid it, and how to stop the crime seconds after it starts.

    Random chance can put you in a bad spot, but it depends if your ready for that spot or not.


    And I will go back to it's not the paladins job to be a community activist. That is a job for priests (not clerics either) and even common folk.

    It's again like saying a Navy SEAL reports for duty at 0600. He equips himself with full tactical armor, battle gear and weapons. Then he will go wander around the local schools and playgrounds, looking for things like kids fighting that he can break up.

    Now, no Navy SEAL does that. It is not the job of a Navy SEAL to do that. The same way it is not a paladins.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •