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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default WotC Website: Swiftblade

    The Swiftblade was put on the WotC website this morning. What do you think of it? I can see some potential for twinkery, as it brings back a bit of the old 3.0 haste, but I also see potential for awesome in it too.

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    The loss of four caster levels makes completing it not much of an option. A two-level dip would, however, net you (at the cost of taking Dodge/Lightning Reflexes) Quicken Spell for +3 rather than +4 spell levels, and +Casting Stat Mod to Initiative (which gets to be as much as +13).
    I suppose going all the way to Blurred Acceleration could be worth it, since you'd still have some ninth level spells at 20th.

    Also, this requirement? "Special: The candidate must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level or higher spell slots to exclusively cast haste."
    That kills it.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Yeah, that is a tough req. Still, though, the two-level dip is pretty sweet.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Nice class. It could be interesting to combine Wizard/Swashbuckler with it. Though I wouldn't take it for primary caster. Maybe even Warblade would be good for it to.

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Yes the special requirement can be bit too much, but even third level isn't bad. It doesn't lose CL and it gives you some mobility.
    Last edited by marjan; 2007-03-29 at 02:26 PM.

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    Illiterate Scribe's Avatar

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Weird. I don't quite understand the special requirement though.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    You cannot cast anything aside from haste using 3rd lvl slots for entire level before taking this class.

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Third level *and over*. So no spells higher than second level that aren't haste.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    I think that's a really cool flavor compliment. Your character is obsessed with moving super fast, and then he discovers hiden talents for it.

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    So, its good for when starting at high levels, when you just hand wave that away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Chumleigh View Post
    Oh.
    Oh, my.
    You just earned seventeen cool points by my reckoning. And I'm so sigging that.
    Cheers,
    --Count Chumleigh

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Third level *and over*. So no spells higher than second level that aren't haste.
    Even uglier then I thought. Still if you take it as soon as possible you won't have spells higher then lvl3.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    The loss of four caster levels makes completing it not much of an option. A two-level dip would, however, net you (at the cost of taking Dodge/Lightning Reflexes) Quicken Spell for +3 rather than +4 spell levels, and +Casting Stat Mod to Initiative (which gets to be as much as +13)
    I would have thought if you're taking two levels you might as well take three: you don't lose any extra caster levels and get +1 BAB, a couple of save bonuses, and a kind-of-useful ability.

    But that 'only cast haste' prerequisite is just bizarre. Does any player really want to spend the first round of every single combat casting the same spell over and over again?

    - Saph

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Person_Man's Avatar

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    The entry requirements are insane. 3 feats, two of which are very weak, plus the whole "exclusively cast Haste" thing.

    Haste is nifty, but the main benefit, gaining an extra attack, is screwed by the caster requirement and mediocre BAB of the class.

    If Haste was on the Hexblade or Duskblade spell list it might be a good idea for them, but its not. A Beguiler/Swiftblade might be a good idea if Swiftblade had more Skill points or caster levels, but it doesn't.

    I don't see anyone using this. Great idea, poor execution.

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    EvilElitest's Avatar

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Might work ok for a bard though
    from,
    EE

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    The entry requirements are insane. 3 feats, two of which are very weak, plus the whole "exclusively cast Haste" thing.

    Haste is nifty, but the main benefit, gaining an extra attack, is screwed by the caster requirement and mediocre BAB of the class.

    If Haste was on the Hexblade or Duskblade spell list it might be a good idea for them, but its not. A Beguiler/Swiftblade might be a good idea if Swiftblade had more Skill points or caster levels, but it doesn't.

    I don't see anyone using this. Great idea, poor execution.
    Melee-focused Battle Sorceror, maybe, or a unoptimized Cleric with the Time domain.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    I really like this class. In all honestly, the sheer number of full spellcasting-progressing PrCs is one of the main problems with D&D. The Swiftblade is a great class for a Fighter/Sorcerer, or a Battle Sorcerer.

    9th level spells are overpowered, and losing them should be something most DMs aim for their players doing anyway. No 9th level spell is required to defeat any high-level opponent (short of the Tarrasque, but lack of 9th level spells just makes him more deserving his CR.)

    So in short: Nice flavour, great powers, and well balanced. Good class.

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    short of the Tarrasque, but lack of 9th level spells just makes him more deserving his CR.
    And CR X means that party of four level X characters has no way to defeat that enemy?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Well, the Haste requirement isn't so bad for a Sorcerer. After all, when they get a new tier of spells, they only get one spell known anyway. Given that metamagic isn't terribly popular at level 6, that's somewhat automatic. The only problem there is that the feat requirements scream "take Fighter levels!" whereas the Sorcerer part screams "take Paladin levels!" for Divine Grace.

    So... Fighter or Paladin 2/Sorc 6/Swiftblade 3/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8... 16th level Sorcerer casting, BAB +16. Not too shabby, but it's not exactly going to usher in a new era of gish-building.
    Merlin the Tuna

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Krellen's Avatar

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    And CR X means that party of four level X characters has no way to defeat that enemy?
    Defeat <> Kill. A party without 9th level spells can still beat the Tarrasque into submission, imprison it somewhere, lock it away. If you played the old Darksun video games - particularly the second, Wake of the Ravager, you know the sort of situation I'm talking about.

    It's supposed to be the Tarrasque. It shouldn't be killed.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    its very...gimmiky, but i like it alot, certianly interesting

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Defeat <> Kill. A party without 9th level spells can still beat the Tarrasque into submission, imprison it somewhere, lock it away. If you played the old Darksun video games - particularly the second, Wake of the Ravager, you know the sort of situation I'm talking about.

    It's supposed to be the Tarrasque. It shouldn't be killed.
    Defeat <> Monster will be up in under a minute and killing everything in it's way.

    And Big T is very chalenging if you don't dig out your MM and read its entry.
    Last edited by marjan; 2007-03-29 at 04:14 PM.

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    Closet_Skeleton's Avatar

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Lol. His capstone ability makes some of his abilities redundant. I hate it when they do that. All their abilities are about casting haste on themselves but when they reach 10th level their only use for the haste spell is buffing their allies who don't benifit from those class features.

    Oh well. It isn't as bad as the Serpent Slayer's first level ability becoming redundant by third level.

    At least moving around a lot doesn't hurt casters as much as it hurts fighters.
    "that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft

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  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin the Tuna View Post
    Well, the Haste requirement isn't so bad for a Sorcerer. After all, when they get a new tier of spells, they only get one spell known anyway. Given that metamagic isn't terribly popular at level 6, that's somewhat automatic. The only problem there is that the feat requirements scream "take Fighter levels!" whereas the Sorcerer part screams "take Paladin levels!" for Divine Grace.

    So... Fighter or Paladin 2/Sorc 6/Swiftblade 3/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8... 16th level Sorcerer casting, BAB +16. Not too shabby, but it's not exactly going to usher in a new era of gish-building.
    Well, one could Spellthief 1/Battle Sorceror 6/Swiftblade 3/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Arcane Trickster 5, to be more of a roguelike. BAB +12, CL 18, Sneak Attack +3d6, Sudden Raystrike +2d6, and with the proper application of feats, Steal Spell (9th level spells) with rays.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Krellen's Avatar

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    Defeat <> Monster will be up in under a minute and killing everything in it's way.
    You didn't play Wake of the Ravager, did you? The whole game was a mission to stop a cult from releasing the Tarrasque ("Ravager" on Athas) and, when that fails, you then have to beat it up and stick it back in the jar it came from.

    That's the sort of encounter that should involve the Tarrasque. An ending involving wishing it to death rather defeats its Legendary status. Once it's dead, there's no more legend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    Lol. His capstone ability makes some of his abilities redundant. I hate it when they do that. All their abilities are about casting haste on themselves but when they reach 10th level their only use for the haste spell is buffing their allies who don't benifit from those class features.
    As I read it, allies still benefit from the blur effect. They also continue to benefit from Quick Surge and Reflexive Celerity, even while being permanently hasted. The only benefit they lose is Bound Acceleration - which they don't really lose, it just becomes permanent.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    It looks like a decent prestige class for martial Bards who want something flashy. You end up with better Saves, the feat prerequisites are a bit more useful and you have a higher BAB. Your Spellcasting is weaker, but if you're going into a martial prestige class anyway, you should be fine with only a few low-level buffs and cure spells.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    You didn't play Wake of the Ravager, did you?
    No.

    That's the sort of encounter that should involve the Tarrasque. An ending involving wishing it to death rather defeats its Legendary status. Once it's dead, there's no more legend.
    His CR suggests that at lvl20 you should be able to beat the crap out of it with no sweat. And with partial caster you aren't going to do it. Tarasque is still legendary monster, but so are characters of lvl20. If the WotC wanted it to be much tougher they should have designed it with higher CR.

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    Krellen's Avatar

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    His CR suggests that at lvl20 you should be able to beat the crap out of it with no sweat. And with partial caster you aren't going to do it. Tarasque is still legendary monster, but so are characters of lvl20. If the WotC wanted it to be much tougher they should have designed it with higher CR.
    Once it's down, it's quite easy to keep it down, even with its massive regeneration. Once again, defeat <> kill. You don't have to be able to wish the Tarrasque dead to defeat it. If you can get it to -50, you can get it to -90, or -500, or -5000.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Once it's down, it's quite easy to keep it down, even with its massive regeneration. Once again, defeat <> kill. You don't have to be able to wish the Tarrasque dead to defeat it. If you can get it to -50, you can get it to -90, or -500, or -5000.
    Yes, but by defeating monster it means that you can leave the place and be done with it. With Tarasque you cannot. You will either have to beat it all day long or accept the fact that it will regenarate and continue doing what you stoped him from for a moment.

    Big T is not just a random encounter which you can just leave there and get on with your life. When you face it it is usualy required that you stop him from destroying countryside.

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    Big T is not just a random encounter which you can just leave there and get on with your life. When you face it it is usualy required that you stop him from destroying countryside.
    Indeed. But why, precisely, does this mean you need to kill him?

    For an 8th level solution, how about trap the soul? This is essentially the solution presented in Wake of the Ravager.
    Alternatively, there is binding or temporal stasis. Going down to 7th level, you can try a plane shift or greater teleport to seal it away; most DMs would likely allow you to imprison it, without killing it (maybe for the 1,000 years its fluff says it is supposed to remain dormant?) with a limited wish.

    9th level spells are not required.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: WotC Website: Swiftblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Indeed. But why, precisely, does this mean you need to kill him?

    For an 8th level solution, how about trap the soul? This is essentially the solution presented in Wake of the Ravager.
    Alternatively, there is binding or temporal stasis. Going down to 7th level, you can try a plane shift or greater teleport to seal it away; most DMs would likely allow you to imprison it, without killing it (maybe for the 1,000 years its fluff says it is supposed to remain dormant?) with a limited wish.

    9th level spells are not required.
    Those are perfectly nice solutions but they require your DM's agreement. And you would still need to spend more than 20% of your resouces if your wizard casts at 16th CL.

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