Crusader Kings 2 Thread III: Keeping Up With The Karlings

[Cristo Meyers]

I think I remember this being mentioned somewhere in the thread, but damn if I can find it: did Way of Life change how pilgrimage worked? It seems to have disappeared from the Intrigue menu.

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Well, the Emperor I wanted dead has finally died...in his sleep...at 68. I put that man at the fore of every conflict during his reign, and he only came out of them more skilled. Now I just have to undo the damage done to the Imperial Demense while he ruled and re-claim some counties.

[Sange]

With WoL, you have to have the Theology focus to go on pilgrimages.

[tyckspoon]

With WoL, you have to have the Theology focus to go on pilgrimages.

Same way you have to be on Hunt focus to go on grand hunts and Frat Party focus to throw feasts.

[Cristo Meyers]

That's what I was figuring, thanks.

I'd have to double-check, but I think you can do Feasts without the Party focus. It's in my Intrigue menu and my current Emperor has War.

Could be wrong, though, since the past 75 years have been a pretty constant series of wars, being called into wars, and defending in wars so it wouldn't matter if it was true.

[Flickerdart]

Success! After murdering loads and loads of people I've now inherited Castille. Unfortunately, in the time it took me to die, my husband managed to lose all but a handful of provinces in various stupid revolts and factions. With the weight of Britannia behind me, the Reconquista should be a cinch though.

[Cristo Meyers]

Finally finished my first full playthrough: 867 to end, Duchy of Toulouse.

-5 Crusades for Jerusalem, only one of which was successful (the first).
-Aztecs came, tried to conquer, and were ultimately finished off by a Scottish uprising...but not before leaving their mark on Ireland. It's a trip to see names like Coixuatl Gilbert.
-The de Toulose dynasty ruled most of Mainland Europe, with only a handful of enclaves of other dynasties. At least three Popes were of the dynasty, one was a bastard of the dynasty.
-I had to fight off three consecutive Great Holy Wars for Taurica. Apparently the Tengri hate it when you take Crimea from them.
-The Muslim world shattered completely, and yet was still able to repel multiple Crusades. It was about the only thing that could make them stop killing each other for long enough to get anything done.
-One Emperor pre-empted Gallileo by a couple of decades thanks to the Learning focus and an observatory. This, of course, ticked off the Pope to no end (which kinda annoyed me for reasons that have little to do with the game itself).
-And apparently the EU4 converter no longer works. Then again...

I think I'll try Newbieland next, just for something different.

Once I started getting into Way of Life, I really started liking it. I still have both of the Intrigue options and Diplomacy options to get into, but right now I'm leaning towards Hunting as being my favorite. You don't need Carousing in order to have a Feast, though, Carousing opens up it's own Feast-like option.

[IthilanorStPete]

Finally finished my first full playthrough: 867 to end, Duchy of Toulouse.

-5 Crusades for Jerusalem, only one of which was successful (the first).
-Aztecs came, tried to conquer, and were ultimately finished off by a Scottish uprising...but not before leaving their mark on Ireland. It's a trip to see names like Coixuatl Gilbert.
-The de Toulose dynasty ruled most of Mainland Europe, with only a handful of enclaves of other dynasties. At least three Popes were of the dynasty, one was a bastard of the dynasty.
-I had to fight off three consecutive Great Holy Wars for Taurica. Apparently the Tengri hate it when you take Crimea from them.
-The Muslim world shattered completely, and yet was still able to repel multiple Crusades. It was about the only thing that could make them stop killing each other for long enough to get anything done.
-One Emperor pre-empted Gallileo by a couple of decades thanks to the Learning focus and an observatory. This, of course, ticked off the Pope to no end (which kinda annoyed me for reasons that have little to do with the game itself).
-And apparently the EU4 converter no longer works.

I think I'll try Newbieland next, just for something different.

Once I started getting into Way of Life, I really started liking it. I still have both of the Intrigue options and Diplomacy options to get into, but right now I'm leaning towards Hunting as being my favorite. You don't need Carousing in order to have a Feast, though, Carousing opens up it's own Feast-like option.

What's the issue with the EU4 converter?

[Cristo Meyers]

What's the issue with the EU4 converter?

Actually I think it was user error. I've been able to get it working since:

Spoiler

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For comparison:

Spoiler: CK2 Map

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Anyone north of that France line bordering Poland is Tengri, though it extending to the northern coast is the Converter's doing. Other than that, pretty close.

I do like how the British Isles have essentially returned to the pre-Aztec borders now, just with more weird bird-headwear:

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This guy's predecessor went full-on beak and eyes with the headwear.

[Flickerdart]

What do y'all spend your money on? I'm currently making about 15-20 ducats a month, and my treasury is now about 4000 even with vikings constantly stealing stuff. I blew two thousand on a huge mercenary army to beat down an adventurer while the rest of my men were busy getting slaughtered in an ill-advised Holy War for Aragon (what's the point of pouncing on heretics when they're allied with the orthodox Muslims anyway?) but made all that money back in short order.

I suppose I could upgrade some of my tribal holdings in Scotland...how large are the benefits of that?

[OrcusMcP]

What do y'all spend your money on? I'm currently making about 15-20 ducats a month, and my treasury is now about 4000 even with vikings constantly stealing stuff. I blew two thousand on a huge mercenary army to beat down an adventurer while the rest of my men were busy getting slaughtered in an ill-advised Holy War for Aragon (what's the point of pouncing on heretics when they're allied with the orthodox Muslims anyway?) but made all that money back in short order.

I suppose I could upgrade some of my tribal holdings in Scotland...how large are the benefits of that?

Well, if you have money to burn then doing a mass upgrade of tribal land would go through it pretty quick. You'll have to buy a few cities/castles/churches in the new feudal land to make them actually valuable, as you stop getting the tribal bonuses.

If you have the time/patience to spend prestige to upgrade the secondary buildings in a tribe, then that'll save you a little money when you feudalize.

[Flickerdart]

Is it worth it to transform one of my High Chiefs into a Doge instead of a Duke? Genoa and Amalfi have kept to the Mediterranean for the most part (although there's a Genoan trade post in Waddenzee somehow) so there's nobody around for them to clash with.

Also, how useful would forming the HRE be? I have all the requirements except "owns Italy" and the Lombards are weak enough that I could take them. I don't even think they have any alliances - the Karlings only control West Francia and Saxony, while Middle Francia is controlled by Wildlings and Germany got eaten up by Poland. I'm already Emperor (and am working on booting the Moors out of Hispania to form a second empire) so that's not going to be a benefit.

Also also, should I boot out the Knights of Calatrava and turn Asturias into Leon? As far as I can tell, all it gives me is 500 prestige (for 1000 piety spent on kicking out the knights).

[OrcusMcP]

Is it worth it to transform one of my High Chiefs into a Doge instead of a Duke? Genoa and Amalfi have kept to the Mediterranean for the most part (although there's a Genoan trade post in Waddenzee somehow) so there's nobody around for them to clash with.

I think you can only do that if you are republican yourself already, but I could be wrong. Either way, they won't be very effective counties until you buy them some other holdings to go along with the city/castle.

[Artanis]

*snip maps*

Hmm, Byzantium seems to have fared rather poorly in the transition. Out of curiosity, is that due to shifting provinces (such as occurred with you at the Baltic coast), or some other factor like a large rebellion? Regardless, it looks pretty cool.

Relatedly, between the relatively-unified India, the SSI-blobbed New World, and there still being a fair amount of not-you left in Europe*, you might even be able to keep going without it getting TOO boring


*And you could always release some of the stuff like the Big Blue East and Bluetalia, I guess.




Addendum for Diplo-Assassin Options:

Well, if you have money to burn then doing a mass upgrade of tribal land would go through it pretty quick. You'll have to buy a few cities/castles/churches in the new feudal land to make them actually valuable, as you stop getting the tribal bonuses.

If you have the time/patience to spend prestige to upgrade the secondary buildings in a tribe, then that'll save you a little money when you feudalize.

On a related note, the wrong holding type penalties make it so that it's good to delay a little while until you can upgrade a bunch of tribal lands all at once.

[Flickerdart]

Hmm, Byzantium seems to have fared rather poorly in the transition. Out of curiosity, is that due to shifting provinces (such as occurred with you at the Baltic coast), or some other factor like a large rebellion? Regardless, it looks pretty cool.

I remember reading that in countries with Autonomous Vassals, the converter creates them as vassal states of the sovereign.

[Cristo Meyers]

Hmm, Byzantium seems to have fared rather poorly in the transition. Out of curiosity, is that due to shifting provinces (such as occurred with you at the Baltic coast), or some other factor like a large rebellion? Regardless, it looks pretty cool.

Relatedly, between the relatively-unified India, the SSI-blobbed New World, and there still being a fair amount of not-you left in Europe*, you might even be able to keep going without it getting TOO boring


*And you could always release some of the stuff like the Big Blue East and Bluetalia, I guess.

Yeah, if I'm going to continue into EU4 I'll go back in and release Taurica, Wallachia, the other duchies in the Polish Line, the Italian provinces and the Spanish kingdoms. France is powerful enough in EU4, they don't need more land.

Byzantium was actually on the rebound for a while there, at one point they'd been pushed back past Constantinople and out of Greece by the Muslims. Then the Muslim dynasty fractured into that pretty patchwork, we won a Crusade for Greece, and they started making a little progress. A revolt (centered in Venice) had broken out just before game-end, I'm thinking that might have had something to do with the transition wonkiness.

[OrcusMcP]

Yeah, if I'm going to continue into EU4 I'll go back in and release Taurica, Wallachia, the other duchies in the Polish Line, the Italian provinces and the Spanish kingdoms. France is powerful enough in EU4, they don't need more land.

Byzantium was actually on the rebound for a while there, at one point they'd been pushed back past Constantinople and out of Greece by the Muslims. Then the Muslim dynasty fractured into that pretty patchwork, we won a Crusade for Greece, and they started making a little progress. A revolt (centered in Venice) had broken out just before game-end, I'm thinking that might have had something to do with the transition wonkiness.

I wonder if there's a way to easily give yourself the "HRE" switch instead, or as an alternative.

[Sange]

Yeah, there is. You have to mod the defines.lua files of the converter dlc (dlc030 IIRC) and change hre = e_hre to hre = e_france or something similar.

[Cristo Meyers]

Yeah, if I'm going to continue into EU4 I'll go back in and release Taurica, Wallachia, the other duchies in the Polish Line, the Italian provinces and the Spanish kingdoms. France is powerful enough in EU4, they don't need more land.

Went in and did just that, just to see what Europe would look like:

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De jure drift meant that every Spanish kingdom other than Andalucia is territory of the French Empire, so I couldn't actually give them Independence.

[Flickerdart]

So this is 1000% going to bite me in the ass, but...

Let's set the scene. Britannia has expanded to control the Christian half of Spain. The old emperor has died, and the new one is but a child, forced by a low vassal limit and general ill will towards him to weaken his hold over the realm by creating new duchies to tuck away the more belligerent Counts. Between this and generous bribes to all these Dukes, the treasury is half of what it used to be. By the time the emperor comes of age, his realm is still weak and divided against him.

Desperate to assert his strength, the emperor seeks an easy conquest, ideally one that will help bridge his disparate realms. Britanny is a perfect target, and though it will further weaken the realm by crowning the Duke of Castille a King (the first vassal king under the British crown) the emperor agrees. The war is easily won, especially since Middle Francia actually gets off its butt and helps fight the Breton forces while the emperor's own troops lay siege.

The war is swiftly won, the gobs of Prestige it bestowed upon the emperor pacifying his subjects somewhat. But the newly minted king is not done - through whatever happenstance, it turns out that not only does he also have a weak claim to Aquitaine, but said kingdom has just been saddled with a child ruler. After an absolutely brutal war that claimed half of Britannia's 30,000 strong army, the island empire now controls Aquitaine, putting the entire coast from Vannes to Santiago into its hands. After we pressed two king-level claims, there couldn't be a more loyal vassal - but he is pushing 60, and his children are bound to be much less understanding than their father when it comes to reasons why they should keep their knee bent to some overseas fop with a fancy hat.

[IthilanorStPete]

So this is 1000% going to bite me in the ass, but...

Let's set the scene. Britannia has expanded to control the Christian half of Spain. The old emperor has died, and the new one is but a child, forced by a low vassal limit and general ill will towards him to weaken his hold over the realm by creating new duchies to tuck away the more belligerent Counts. Between this and generous bribes to all these Dukes, the treasury is half of what it used to be. By the time the emperor comes of age, his realm is still weak and divided against him.

Desperate to assert his strength, the emperor seeks an easy conquest, ideally one that will help bridge his disparate realms. Britanny is a perfect target, and though it will further weaken the realm by crowning the Duke of Castille a King (the first vassal king under the British crown) the emperor agrees. The war is easily won, especially since Middle Francia actually gets off its butt and helps fight the Breton forces while the emperor's own troops lay siege.

The war is swiftly won, the gobs of Prestige it bestowed upon the emperor pacifying his subjects somewhat. But the newly minted king is not done - through whatever happenstance, it turns out that not only does he also have a weak claim to Aquitaine, but said kingdom has just been saddled with a child ruler. After an absolutely brutal war that claimed half of Britannia's 30,000 strong army, the island empire now controls Aquitaine, putting the entire coast from Vannes to Santiago into its hands. After we pressed two king-level claims, there couldn't be a more loyal vassal - but he is pushing 60, and his children are bound to be much less understanding than their father when it comes to reasons why they should keep their knee bent to some overseas fop with a fancy hat.

It's probably too late, but one thing I try to do with powerful vassas is educate their kids myself; the bonus opinion from being their mentor is nice, plus you can shape their traits to be more malleable.

[Flickerdart]

Unfortunately his children are all adults by now, and before these last few years he was a nobody duke in a nowhere province. In fact, Castille might actually have been one of the duchies I created, so he would have started this emperor's reign a Count and then within the span of like a decade become double-king, none of it being his achievement in the slightest.

I'm considering starting a new game, anyway - my Bulgaria > Carpathia game got boring at around this time, when I was beating up Karlings for claims and then revoking/destroying the kingdoms to prevent uprisings against me. I scythed through Europe in a flash and then nobody could stand up to me anymore. I think the idea behind that game was to restore the Roman Empire as a Bulgarian, but it became way too easy to do stuff. The ERE is actually very strong right now, but Seljuk just showed up with 60,000 troops, so we'll see how much of it is left once the dust settles.

[GnomeGninjas]

How do you repay a loan to the templars?

[Flickerdart]

Come on over to the CK2 thread and let me sell you on how awesome the start is.

So what's this about the amazing Tunis start?

[OrcusMcP]

So what's this about the amazing Tunis start?

My favourite start, the Zirid Sultan of Africa, 1066:

1) Starts in Tunis, one of the best duchies in the whole map, but only a sliver of it. Having the sultanate title already makes it easier to initially expand.
2) African coast is super advanced in 1066 compared to much of Europe. Very easy to have a powerful realm that can transport your troops wherever they need to be.
3) You can expand to the west into Mauretania, Northwest into Iberia, Northeast into Sicily, or East into Egypt as the Fatimids collapse.
4) Because your kingdom is mostly coastal, you'll have lots of money.
5) This also means you can never relax, as the republics will want you real bad. Makes for some tense challenges.

Personally, I really like the start. You have to be careful in the first few years as you re-establish your presence along the coast, but once you do you can do anything you want. The challenge never goes away, though. Republics, adventurers and other powerful Muslims and Christians will always want your land.

[Flickerdart]

Fatimids collapse? I don't think I've ever actually seen that happen. They always blob and blob some more.

[OrcusMcP]

Fatimids collapse? I don't think I've ever actually seen that happen. They always blob and blob some more.

Mileages vary, I suppose. They start with high decadence now, so they're not the invincible juggernaut they often were.

[Sange]

So, I'm currently trying the Emir of Sicily in 1066, and I can't find any viable strategy that makes me stay Muslim and independent. I always get DoWed almost instantly by Guiscard and lose even in mountains/strait crossings. Any tips?

[OrcusMcP]

So, I'm currently trying the Emir of Sicily in 1066, and I can't find any viable strategy that makes me stay Muslim and independent. I always get DoWed almost instantly by Guiscard and lose even in mountains/strait crossings. Any tips?

That's a tougher start to be sure. See if you can cozy up to the Fatimids to get them to send help for you, though it might be a long shot. There unfortunately aren't many other Shia powers.

Alternatively, you could invade Tripolitania and abandon Sicily until Robert it gone, though that may backfire.

You may also be able to buy/sweet talk him away, but I haven't tried that.

[Corvus]

I've had the game for a while but never done much more than experiment with it (all in east of west Africa oddly.) So I decided I want to play a game through. Got all the major DLCs except the new one but have Aztecs turned off. Playing in the Charlie era as Lesser Poland. Currently up to the third ruler and things are going interestingly. Still lots to learn, such as not knowing about raiding. May have solved a lot of the money issues.

First ruler unified the Polish tribes into a kingdom, though didn't do much beyond that. He only grabbed a couple of neighbouring tribes.

His eldest son followed. Though a schemer he ended up a warrior king. At one stage he spent about 4 years in constant warfare fighting off one invasion after another (from Saxony, Lithuania and one of the eastern Slavic states). Only thing that enabled him to win them all was that he married his sister off to the heir to Bohemia, allowing him to call them into the war. With all that done he went on a rampage east gobbling up land, earning the wroth trait to go with his pride. I think that may have been what earned him the title 'Cruel', despite never actually doing anything all that cruel. He subjugated the High Chief of Kiev, a major power, but more on him later.

He was followed by a younger brother who consolidated the Polish lands and reformed the Slavic faith. He didn't do much fighting off his own - his Kievite vassal went a bit crazy gobbling up surrounding lands so that he ended up with five high chieftainships and making himself a little too powerful. He ended up falling on an arrow out riding which broke out his lands between three underage sons. Feudalism could be instituted but the lands aren't ready for it yet.

The lack of gold is what is holding things - there are 3 kingdoms and 6 duchies that could be formed but for lack of money. Not to mention all the forts that need upgrading before Feudalism is feasible.

Elsewhere things stand as follows;

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Francia blobbed to take in all of France (minus Saxony which rebelled) and then took over all of Italy. Barely had that happened than it fell apart, splitting first into two kingdoms and then spiralling down from there as it fractured further, which is causing problems down south.

The Umayyads have all but taken over all of Hispania and then overran the disorganised Franks to take over a large chunk of southern France. Nothing is stopping them continuing as most of Europe, except for Poland, is fractured badly.

The west Africans unified into two Malis at one point, then unified into one nation and grabbed a couple of provinces from the Muslims. A smaller nation of Ghana has broken away since.

The Abyssinians have taken control of half of east Africa, while the various Nubian nations are still disorganised.

The Abassids started out by being torn apart by revolts and uprisings. At one point they lost Egypt, part of the Mediterranean coast and large parts of the east and north, including one region which became a independent Nestorian Kurdistan. Sadly it was reconquered nine years later. Despite this the Abassid's have reclaim most of their former land and are butting heads with the Byzantiums.

The Byzantiums, despite numerous revolts and civil wars, are gaining ground. They've knocked off most of Bulgaria (with the northern part in Polish hands) and have pushed east to take over half of Armenian and Georgian lands as well as striking north beyond the Caucasus to grab some Khazaria land. The Abassids have twice tried to invade but been beaten back both times. The Byzantiums are in the Polish bad books though as they blinded the Polish King's 21 intrigue niece as she was poking around Constantinople.

[Flickerdart]

Retinues! Why must you bankrupt me?

Andalusia joined the stupid Crusade, and since I own half of Spain, that meant things were heating up in my backyard. So I mobilized my retinue and stomped around there a bunch, and then it turned out that this gave me 67% contribution. So I thought, hey, I might as well go to Jerusalem and fight, right? Well, the Muslims pulled out a giant stack (must have been mercs) after I steamrolled their main army, and crushed me. And then when I finally mobilized my levies, my 25 Martial king died and left my Maimed son in charge of the empire. An empire that now contains two very powerful kings (Aquitaine and Britanny) who have every reason to seek independence but the fact that the emperor's father pushed their grandfather's claim to these lands.

And the old emperor's last son didn't even inherit the minor claim his mother had on France. Not that there's much left of it - Middle Francia is very much the king of Europe proper, and Lombardy is stronger than at game start at the cost of Burgundian lands. Everything else is pagans - Poland has been a massive Slavic blob for basically ever, and Finland has somehow conquered the entirety of Scandinavia, except a small Catholic Swede holdout in the south.