Crusader Kings 2 Thread III: Keeping Up With The Karlings

[OrcusMcP]

I can't help but feel as if Horse Lords still needs quite a bit of work. It seems like not more than a couple of decades pass before a khan decides to settle down, becomes independent from the khagan and either goes on to be conquered, or just becomes this weird empire-tier title.


I feel like in order to settle down and become feudal, they shouldn't immediately gain independence. There's enough penalty between nomads and feudals that It's fairly likely that a feudal vassal will be rebellious towards their overlord at some point.

I feel like a fix might be to handle it similarly to the "your son wants land" events that the Europeans get. You can say yes or no, saying yes keeps them in the empire and happy, but runs the risk of future independence the way you describe it. Saying no causes resentment and a big risk of clan war.

[Mabn]

So I recently pick up crusader kings II and took a few tries to not mess everything up royally. I did notice that the game doesn't seem to explain things well and I haven't found a really good guide yet. That said, so far I started as Karl Karling, had him kill his brother in a duel, gained Italy due to a conspiracy I had nothing to do with just after I conquered Saxony and just before 12,000 rebels spawned due to an event. This left me exhausted, way over vassal limit, and without my only maybe ally, but I managed to get through it thanks to 65% of the rebels dying without me doing anything due to causes I do not understand and my having stumbled into a remedial understanding of in game combat.

After that Karl lived for another 30+ years, was a doting father to his family, gained control of Pomerania somehow (seriously, I just had it at some point), became best friends with Byzantium, put his cousin in charge of Bavaria, formed the HRE, and got his son elected to lead it.

However, I seem to have triggered something I saw referred to as the devil child event chain that apparently caused my new ruler to kill all his siblings, gain terrible traits, and hear Satan. So now chunks of the HRE are being eaten away, there is no way my heir is getting elected to lead it, there is less way I can change its inheritance laws, every other nation detests me, and my ruler goes around torturing people every month or so. Is this typical? Any advice? Apart from intentionally steering things into some melodramatic tragedy I really don't see where the game intends for me to go...

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Oh, that's just terrible bad luck to get so early. The Devil Child chain you can survive if you have a larger family, but so early in the game may be a death-sentence.

You may want to let parts of the realm spin off, if it's getting too hard to control with that.

The usual suggestion for your first game is to start as an Irish Duke in 1066, but you seem to have been doing pretty well with the larger empire, if a bit confusingly, up until the bad luck hit.

[Rockphed]

So I recently pick up crusader kings II and took a few tries to not mess everything up royally. I did notice that the game doesn't seem to explain things well and I haven't found a really good guide yet. That said, so far I started as Karl Karling, had him kill his brother in a duel, gained Italy due to a conspiracy I had nothing to do with just after I conquered Saxony and just before 12,000 rebels spawned due to an event. This left me exhausted, way over vassal limit, and without my only maybe ally, but I managed to get through it thanks to 65% of the rebels dying without me doing anything due to causes I do not understand and my having stumbled into a remedial understanding of in game combat.

After that Karl lived for another 30+ years, was a doting father to his family, gained control of Pomerania somehow (seriously, I just had it at some point), became best friends with Byzantium, put his cousin in charge of Bavaria, formed the HRE, and got his son elected to lead it.

However, I seem to have triggered something I saw referred to as the devil child event chain that apparently caused my new ruler to kill all his siblings, gain terrible traits, and hear Satan. So now chunks of the HRE are being eaten away, there is no way my heir is getting elected to lead it, there is less way I can change its inheritance laws, every other nation detests me, and my ruler goes around torturing people every month or so. Is this typical? Any advice? Apart from intentionally steering things into some melodramatic tragedy I really don't see where the game intends for me to go...

Make sure to give your heir land. Preferably a duchy that is reasonably powerful. Looks like you will have to win the Empire back from the inside or gain independence and conquer it from without. Is it going to be 5 generations of "yes, lowly family who used to be our vassals, I shall polish your boots with my tongue"? Yes. But with some pluck and determination, you will be able to regain your title. The nice thing is that as the Karlings, you have a nice bunch of dynasty prestige built in, so you should be able to get just about any marriage you want. Well, once your ruler isn't a devil spawn sent to cause pain to your ancestors, that is.

[Grytorm]

Also random thought I have had about Crusader Kings. When you get the your son wants land event if you are under Gavelkind succession then you should be able to give your son the land he could inherit and have him not be about to inherit more land when you die.

[Artanis]

So I recently pick up crusader kings II and took a few tries to not mess everything up royally. I did notice that the game doesn't seem to explain things well and I haven't found a really good guide yet. That said, so far I started as Karl Karling, had him kill his brother in a duel, gained Italy due to a conspiracy I had nothing to do with just after I conquered Saxony and just before 12,000 rebels spawned due to an event. This left me exhausted, way over vassal limit, and without my only maybe ally, but I managed to get through it thanks to 65% of the rebels dying without me doing anything due to causes I do not understand and my having stumbled into a remedial understanding of in game combat.

After that Karl lived for another 30+ years, was a doting father to his family, gained control of Pomerania somehow (seriously, I just had it at some point), became best friends with Byzantium, put his cousin in charge of Bavaria, formed the HRE, and got his son elected to lead it.

However, I seem to have triggered something I saw referred to as the devil child event chain that apparently caused my new ruler to kill all his siblings, gain terrible traits, and hear Satan. So now chunks of the HRE are being eaten away, there is no way my heir is getting elected to lead it, there is less way I can change its inheritance laws, every other nation detests me, and my ruler goes around torturing people every month or so. Is this typical? Any advice? Apart from intentionally steering things into some melodramatic tragedy I really don't see where the game intends for me to go...

Start as the Duke of Munster in 1066*. That's about as easy and simple as starts can get, so much so that Ireland is often called "tutorial island".

Also, there's a really useful wiki.

And of course, don't hesitate to ask questions, since we all know just how d*** much there is to learn in this game


*Note: Make sure it's 1066, because the earlier start dates involve complications like being tribal instead of feudal and having to put up with vikings.

[Guancyto]

Apart from intentionally steering things into some melodramatic tragedy I really don't see where the game intends for me to go...

Melodramatic tragedy is really where the game is at its best.

Just remember that while it's inconvenient for you personally, your ruler is doing right by the world by stamping out the Karling menace.

[Leecros]

So I recently pick up crusader kings II and took a few tries to not mess everything up royally. I did notice that the game doesn't seem to explain things well and I haven't found a really good guide yet. That said, so far I started as Karl Karling, had him kill his brother in a duel, gained Italy due to a conspiracy I had nothing to do with just after I conquered Saxony and just before 12,000 rebels spawned due to an event. This left me exhausted, way over vassal limit, and without my only maybe ally, but I managed to get through it thanks to 65% of the rebels dying without me doing anything due to causes I do not understand and my having stumbled into a remedial understanding of in game combat.

After that Karl lived for another 30+ years, was a doting father to his family, gained control of Pomerania somehow (seriously, I just had it at some point), became best friends with Byzantium, put his cousin in charge of Bavaria, formed the HRE, and got his son elected to lead it.

However, I seem to have triggered something I saw referred to as the devil child event chain that apparently caused my new ruler to kill all his siblings, gain terrible traits, and hear Satan. So now chunks of the HRE are being eaten away, there is no way my heir is getting elected to lead it, there is less way I can change its inheritance laws, every other nation detests me, and my ruler goes around torturing people every month or so. Is this typical? Any advice? Apart from intentionally steering things into some melodramatic tragedy I really don't see where the game intends for me to go...

Welcome To Crusader Kings.


Admittedly the devil child event chain is actually pretty atypical. The event chain trigger has like a Mean Time To Happen(That Is:The average length of time for it to trigger) of 500 years i think. That means that it's an event chain that you'll see happen maybe once per game. It's pretty rare.

[Aevylmar]

However, I seem to have triggered something I saw referred to as the devil child event chain that apparently caused my new ruler to kill all his siblings, gain terrible traits, and hear Satan. So now chunks of the HRE are being eaten away, there is no way my heir is getting elected to lead it, there is less way I can change its inheritance laws, every other nation detests me, and my ruler goes around torturing people every month or so. Is this typical? Any advice? Apart from intentionally steering things into some melodramatic tragedy I really don't see where the game intends for me to go...

Well, the specifics will vary with your situation, but general pieces of advice:

• Those traits can still change. Even though you're the anti-christ, you can become a good (or at least functional) ruler given time. If you have Way of Life, I'd recommend switching to Stewardship focus. Otherwise, just don't ever commit tyrannous acts and maybe they'll like you once you get enough of a Long Reign boost.
• Save all your money for mercenaries. Use these mercenaries to crush revolts. Each crushed vassal revolt is a large boost to the opinion of all the vassals still in the empire, so if you crush two major revolts, even if you're the Devil, they'll still be terrified into obedience.
• If you have Sons of Abraham and a minute free, turn the Pope into your vassal via appointing an anti-pope, then pressing his claim against the real pope. The Pope will then grant you divorces (he'll do that even if you don't have SoA) and large sums of gold in return for piety, even if he has a -100 opinion of you due to you being the Devil.
• Marry women to give you alliances with high-ranking families outside your empire. Call their father/brother into wars until they get sick of you. Divorce (preferably) or murder them. Repeat.
• Transfer vassals who hate you to be the vassals of people who kinda sorta don't hate you, thus making them like you.

[Leecros]

I've got to say...Living in a Post-Horse Lords world as a Merchant Republic with the Silk road route is glorious.

So much money for me!



Also this happened:

Spoiler

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But that has nothing to do with Horse Lords or Merchant Republics. Just The Pope winning a crusade.

[Artanis]

So I'm playing my first real* game as pagans, and Elective Gavelkind is kind of confusing. Not because I don't understand what's going on, but because it seems like it's trying to consolidate my stuff, rather than scattering it. I recently became King of Denmark, and everybody's voting for my vassal brother, which would result in player-me getting back four of the five counties that the first succession took away...

On a related note, the Norse make a 769 Shattered World start just silly. Everything between Denmark and Normandy has been taken over by one "conquer this place" war or another and everything between that and Galicia is on fire. All those wars (and no small number of sacked Bishoprics) have long since doomed Catholicism to a downward spiral of heresy, and it's now sitting at 0% MA with vast swathes of turf either held by or under siege from heretics. I, on the other hand, am ~100 Piety and one Claim Fabrication away from becoming head of the second-highest-authority organized religion in the world


*The time I used the Ruler Designer to create a Norse-religion Venetian Patrician doesn't really count since the Patrician Elective lock takes priority over the Gavelkind lock, not to mention what raiding and concubines do to balance.

Also this happened:

Spoiler

Show

*starts counting trade posts*



Now I want to see screenshots of the two trade mapmodes.

[Leecros]

*starts counting trade posts*



Now I want to see screenshots of the two trade mapmodes.

I can certainly provide that...Although I don't think it looks as impressive as it could.

Trade Zones Mapmode:

Spoiler

Show

Family Trade Zones(for Sicily):

Spoiler

Show

That nasty break in Egypt. I'll be dealing with that soon.

I also feel it's important to note that i'm going for the Who Needs Vasco da Gama? Achievement which requires you to own all of the silk road ports in India as a Merchant Republic. Thus why I'm taking the more difficult/dangerous path through The Red Sea rather than the easier and probably more financially profitable route of going through Tartaria.

[Mabn]

So I recently pick up crusader kings II and took a few tries to not mess everything up royally. I did notice that the game doesn't seem to explain things well and I haven't found a really good guide yet. That said, so far I started as Karl Karling, had him kill his brother in a duel, gained Italy due to a conspiracy I had nothing to do with just after I conquered Saxony and just before 12,000 rebels spawned due to an event. This left me exhausted, way over vassal limit, and without my only maybe ally, but I managed to get through it thanks to 65% of the rebels dying without me doing anything due to causes I do not understand and my having stumbled into a remedial understanding of in game combat.

After that Karl lived for another 30+ years, was a doting father to his family, gained control of Pomerania somehow (seriously, I just had it at some point), became best friends with Byzantium, put his cousin in charge of Bavaria, formed the HRE, and got his son elected to lead it.

However, I seem to have triggered something I saw referred to as the devil child event chain that apparently caused my new ruler to kill all his siblings, gain terrible traits, and hear Satan. So now chunks of the HRE are being eaten away, there is no way my heir is getting elected to lead it, there is less way I can change its inheritance laws, every other nation detests me, and my ruler goes around torturing people every month or so. Is this typical? Any advice? Apart from intentionally steering things into some melodramatic tragedy I really don't see where the game intends for me to go...

so, I won like 10 wars and I still ended up absurdly in debt with a dissembled empire before reigning 5 years. Turns our if people hate you enough crushing 6 major revolts doesn't actually act as a deterrent. Also probably didn't help that Jesus started speaking in the guy's other ear and all of a sudden he's Frantecelli.

[Anxe]

How did you manage 6 Major Revolts in 5 years? How did you even put down those revolts in the space of 5 years?

[Mabn]

How did you manage 6 Major Revolts in 5 years? How did you even put down those revolts in the space of 5 years?

Oh, I managed 5 major revolts at once. I put down 4 of them, lost the fifth, had some more revolts, some invasions, etc. You don't loose half the continent of Europe in 5 years because you're winning all your wars, I just manage to pull off 10 of them. On another note, do stats even do anything? Because the guy's military and espionage scores were in the 40s but I failed and was blackmailed by at least 4 people on every plot I attempted (over quite a few spymasters who ostentatiously loved me) and regularly lost battles against outnumbered and technologically inferior forces.

Edit: also, I'd ruled for about a year before the first post, so I'm not counting those wars here.

[Sallera]

I assume you were assigning him as a general? Martial score, if I recall correctly, increases the chances the general will choose favourable tactics in a given combat phase (scores under 8 actually make them more likely to choose poor tactics than an unled army would), but it mostly acts as a multiplier on the character's relevant traits. Brave characters suffer less morale damage, Cruel characters inflict more, and so on, and then there are all the combat-specific traits like Cavalry Leader, Flat Terrain Master, and such, which directly improve soldiers' combat performance in the relevant units or situations (again, multiplied by Martial/10). You can mouse over the shield on a character's profile to see all of their potential modifiers. Also watch for terrain penalties - attacking into poor terrain or across major rivers will give your units negative modifiers - and check army compositions. An army composed primarily of light infantry won't be likely to accomplish much of anything against an enemy force stacked with heavy cavalry or horse archers.

(In case it isn't obvious enough yet, there is as much detail in CKII combat as you feel like looking at, and I don't claim to be anywhere close to an expert. The wiki has far more information if you really want to get deeply into it.)

[Artanis]

Oh, I managed 5 major revolts at once. I put down 4 of them, lost the fifth, had some more revolts, some invasions, etc. You don't loose half the continent of Europe in 5 years because you're winning all your wars, I just manage to pull off 10 of them. On another note, do stats even do anything? Because the guy's military and espionage scores were in the 40s but I failed and was blackmailed by at least 4 people on every plot I attempted (over quite a few spymasters who ostentatiously loved me) and regularly lost battles against outnumbered and technologically inferior forces.

Edit: also, I'd ruled for about a year before the first post, so I'm not counting those wars here.

For stats, AFAIK, their order of importance is considered to be:
1-Stewardship (more demesne size = more money and more troops = more power to help you snowball and keep your minions in check)
2-Diplomacy (higher vassal limit and higher vassal opinion)
3/4-Martial and Intrigue, depending on whether your murder focuses more on armies or more on individuals
5-Learning

The combat mechanics are opaque, counterintuitive, or (all too often) both. A commander's raw military stat is often the smallest factor in determining how well a flank fights...unless it's one of the times when it's really d*** important...except those times when the commander has one trait that renders irrelevant every other factor besides...yeah. Seriously, the wiki can describe things better than any of us can in a forum post. Or at least it can describe things more thoroughly than a forum post can, at the cost of information overload. I'll add a tip or two to the end of the post that will help.

As for plots, you have apparently discovered why I don't use them. As far as I can tell, plot power is the only thing that matters, and all your intrigue stat does when plotting is increase the plot power. A plot with 80% probably won't work, especially without you being revealed. A plot with 800% power is likely to succeed perfectly...except when it doesn't, giving three fail+reveal results in a row, thereby backfiring spectacularly despite almost the entire target's court, including their spymaster, being in on it. Yes, this is a thing that has happened to me. tl;dr: screw the plot system with tree branch.



Military tips:

1-Too much troop diversity in a flank is bad. Try to have only two each of "skirmish" unit types (archers, light cavalry, horse archers, camel archers) and only two of each "melee" unit types (pikemen, heavy infantry, heavy cavalry, elephants) in a given flank. Light infantry aren't either type, so they don't count towards this "two of each" rule. One of the most egregious examples is when having just 0.1% of a flank be light cavalry can make your commander decide to screw over several other unit types in order to boost light cavalry. No, I am not joking: adding 5 light cavalry to a flank with 4995 non-LC troops can utterly screw you mid-combat. It's highly unlikely, but it can happen.

2-Avoid commanders with Craven, Lisp, Stutter, Slothful, and Shy at all costs.

3-Rivers, straits, amphibious landings, and rough terrain (hills/forests/etc.) all give the defender an advantage. Use this to gain an edge in battle.

[Mabn]

I assume you were assigning him as a general? Martial score, if I recall correctly, increases the chances the general will choose favourable tactics in a given combat phase (scores under 8 actually make them more likely to choose poor tactics than an unled army would), but it mostly acts as a multiplier on the character's relevant traits. Brave characters suffer less morale damage, Cruel characters inflict more, and so on, and then there are all the combat-specific traits like Cavalry Leader, Flat Terrain Master, and such, which directly improve soldiers' combat performance in the relevant units or situations (again, multiplied by Martial/10). You can mouse over the shield on a character's profile to see all of their potential modifiers. Also watch for terrain penalties - attacking into poor terrain or across major rivers will give your units negative modifiers - and check army compositions. An army composed primarily of light infantry won't be likely to accomplish much of anything against an enemy force stacked with heavy cavalry or horse archers.

(In case it isn't obvious enough yet, there is as much detail in CKII combat as you feel like looking at, and I don't claim to be anywhere close to an expert. The wiki has far more information if you really want to get deeply into it.)

how does one assign a general? The game prompts me to pick commanders from time to time, but it doesn't mention generals.

[Artanis]

how does one assign a general? The game prompts me to pick commanders from time to time, but it doesn't mention generals.

In this case, "commander" = "general". When you have an army selected, there should be some portraits near the top. Click on their name to choose one of your designated commanders to lead the flank.

[Corvus]

Had my first real run in with the Horse Lords and yeah, they do need a little toning down. Huge stacks of pure cavalry moving faster than you can, blitzing through those low support counties to swarm all over your armies. Even when you outnumber and out tech them they still cause horrific casualties. It's little wonder that Khazaria tends to go crazy, at least from what I've seen. In the current game I'm playing they've pushed deep into Europe, knocking over Poland, Pommerania and even Finland. They only seem to stop when they settle down, but then the next wave comes rolling in.

I did also notice that if they convert to Islam (which they did early on in my game) that they don't get a decadence stat... Surely that has to be some form of error.

[Flickerdart]

They only seem to stop when they settle down, but then the next wave comes rolling in.

Wasn't this how horse nomads basically worked?

[Leecros]

I did also notice that if they convert to Islam (which they did early on in my game) that they don't get a decadence stat... Surely that has to be some form of error.

I....don't think it is. Think about it: How would a nomad deal with decadence? They can't exactly give land out to their family members.So the only way they would be able to manage decadence would be with family members leading battles and I'm not sure you can manage it with that alone.


Although admittedly the AI is terrible at dealing with decadence anyway...

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I....don't think it is. Think about it: How would a nomad deal with decadence? They can't exactly give land out to their family members.So the only way they would be able to manage decadence would be with family members leading battles and I'm not sure you can manage it with that alone.


Although admittedly the AI is terrible at dealing with decadence anyway...

Pah! Mighty Nomads are not tempted by the sins of your puny `civilised world`*. We don't get punished for decadence*, we are the punishment for decadence!

(Cue general Horse-based smugness)

*Except when we settle down. Then we get punished hard, but we're not Nomads anymore so it doesn't count.

[Artanis]

So...a couple comments/questions related my current game:

1) I've noticed a couple bugs that I want to ask if anybody has seen in the unmodded game, since I started this game immediately after the most recent patch and, as I'm sure you're all sick of hearing, has the Shattered World and Better Gender Law mods.
--1a: The first is randomly-generated characters (usually baron-level rulers, but sometimes others like the Robin+Marion from the Robin Hood event chain) with no education trait. I usually see it paired with the Poet trait.
--1b: Rounding issues with the displayed sizes of armies and navies. For instance, a navy that has 18 boats (and actually has 1800 capacity), will display 18 in some places, and not-18 in others. Please let me not have screwed up the link to this screenshot.

2) For the first century or so, I had to use the console to kill the leaders of raid-hosts (NOT claim-hosts) because Shattered World turns them from "powerful but often surmountable annoyances" to "unstoppable engines of destruction larger than literally all but two or three entire militaries"

I....don't think it is. Think about it: How would a nomad deal with decadence? They can't exactly give land out to their family members.So the only way they would be able to manage decadence would be with family members leading battles and I'm not sure you can manage it with that alone.


Although admittedly the AI is terrible at dealing with decadence anyway...

Considering how broken Decadence is anyways, having somebody - whether player or AI - not have to deal with it is probably the best possible gameplay choice they could have made. Seriously, any time somebody asks, "what could they possibly improve enough to make a CK3 worth it" in the future, I'm probably going to answer, "an underlying foundation upon which it's possible to build a Decadence system that actually works."

[Corvus]

I guess nomads not having decadence is logical (though the game doesn't exactly run on logic all the time...), but as long as they aren't getting the benefits of being muslim, then not having the penalties is fair too.

Speaking of logic, it would be nice if my Emperor could tell some petty duke not to go to war with my ally who I just installed in a neighbouring country, please. I know absolute crown authority prevents it, but an option to ask them to stop would be nice. Or at least let me help my ally fight off my vassal :)

[Leecros]

Huh, i just had the realization that i haven't played a Muslim the whole way through the game since The Old Gods comes out. Well gee, i guess i'm going to have to add that to the list of games i want to do.

So after my European-Indian Trade Empire, i'm going to have a run at the Norse-East achievement. Then i'm going to aim for a Roman Empire run. After that i'll have a Muslim run.

That's like 200 hours of gameplay there to finish all that and by then either new expansions will be out, or i'll have new plans.

I think i have a problem.

[The Great Wyrm]

--1b: Rounding issues with the displayed sizes of armies and navies. For instance, a navy that has 18 boats (and actually has 1800 capacity), will display 18 in some places, and not-18 in others. Please let me not have screwed up the link to this screenshot.

Yes, I've seen this. It's annoying, but not game-breaking.

[Leecros]

It would seem as if my Merchant Republic has run into the most unfortunate of bugs. i suspect it has something to do with Custom Empires and Kingdoms.

I was playing the Most Serene Doge of Sicily, Africa, and Egypt when i decided to create my own little empire. The Mediterranean Trade Empire. Now it seems, whenever my ruler dies I immediately become feudal, lose all of my trade posts(outside of Silk Road Routes) and of course I lose everything that i get as a Republic. I've experimented with several different heirs: Heir's with Claims, Heir's that are landed with City Titles, and Heirs with neither claims or land. All of them results in the same problem.

Unfortunate. I was doing quite well.

[Avilan the Grey]

It would seem as if my Merchant Republic has run into the most unfortunate of bugs. i suspect it has something to do with Custom Empires and Kingdoms.

I was playing the Most Serene Doge of Sicily, Africa, and Egypt when i decided to create my own little empire. The Mediterranean Trade Empire. Now it seems, whenever my ruler dies I immediately become feudal, lose all of my trade posts(outside of Silk Road Routes) and of course I lose everything that i get as a Republic. I've experimented with several different heirs: Heir's with Claims, Heir's that are landed with City Titles, and Heirs with neither claims or land. All of them results in the same problem.

Unfortunate. I was doing quite well.

Not a bug. Empires and kingdoms cannot, by definition, be republics.

[IthilanorStPete]

Not a bug. Empires and kingdoms cannot, by definition, be republics.

I'm pretty sure you can have king/emperor-level republics by creating de jure titles, though. Is it just that custom kingdoms/empires don't work the same way?