Crusader Kings 2 Thread III: Keeping Up With The Karlings

[Artanis]

I had a thought. Would you like a Paradox game which was partially designed so big Empires would collapse given time? Specifically I was thinking it would be cool if they made a game stretching from the Death of Alexander the great to eventually ending at one of the eventual sackings of Rome. Mostly I realized that was a period they hadn't explored for a while.

Gavelkind kind of does this. The bigger the empire, the bigger the Gavelkindsplosion when its ruler dies.

...of course, that only applies to Gavelkind, but still.

[Flickerdart]

Can you send missionaries to non-Christian lands with Christian rulers? Because if so I'd do that. They won't oppose the mission as it's aiding their faith and their heirs won't be able to raid you because they'll be too busy dealing with the effects of being a heathen in the eyes of their respective populaces.

I didn't think of that, next time I get into the game I'll be sure to try it.

[OrcusMcP]

I didn't think of that, next time I get into the game I'll be sure to try it.

I don't think you can do that, the "send foreign missionary" mission is dependent on the ruler's religion. Same reason you can't send missionaries to the King of Jerusalem after a Crusade.

[Artanis]

So...my latest ruler just had his first kid. A healthy daughter.

Well, healthy except for being a lunatic. I knew when my former ruler set up the betrothal that the wife-to-be had the small dim blood drop of a dynasty member, but I figured the risk of inbreeding was minimal because neither of her parents were close relatives and I couldn't find her in the tangled f***ing mess that my relatives have turned the dynasty chart into. After the birth of CrazyBaby, however, I scoured it again, and found out that my new ruler's wife is his second cousin.

That'll teach me not to use the console to check the DNA tags

[Manticoran]

So...my latest ruler just had his first kid. A healthy daughter.

Well, healthy except for being a lunatic. I knew when my former ruler set up the betrothal that the wife-to-be had the small dim blood drop of a dynasty member, but I figured the risk of inbreeding was minimal because neither of her parents were close relatives and I couldn't find her in the tangled f***ing mess that my relatives have turned the dynasty chart into. After the birth of CrazyBaby, however, I scoured it again, and found out that my new ruler's wife is his second cousin.

That'll teach me not to use the console to check the DNA tags

Nothing wrong with Lunatics. They're perfectly fine rulers in my experience, and actually get a bunch of cool benefits through event chains.

[Artanis]

Nothing wrong with Lunatics. They're perfectly fine rulers in my experience, and actually get a bunch of cool benefits through event chains.

I was more venting annoyance that my anti-inbreeding measures were thwarted by the fact that I had decided not to add "use the console to double-check" to the list

[Grytorm]

Mmh, sounds fun. I've kept going a little further in my Ireland game, I take things rather slowly so after twenty years I am not King of Ireland, but I am just three provinces shy of becoming King. So its going fine. Got a lot of family members so far, but at the very least my current Duke is on good terms with his most threatening brother. With luck I will be able to steal everyone's lands and fill every Bishopric and Castle in Ireland with my relatives. Which would be fun in my opinion. The Viking Kingdoms in the British Isles have at least partially fallen apart, they are still there but haven't grown.

But I have a question, why is it that when I look around England I find some pretty high ranking men married to pagans? Found a Duke (or Ducal heir?) married to a Tengri woman whose father was a King, understandable. But the Manichean with no notable relatives seems a little strange. Also my current character is married to a formerly Jewish Italian Princess of Ashkenazi culture. Although that one is pretty obvious.

[Flickerdart]

But I have a question, why is it that when I look around England I find some pretty high ranking men married to pagans? Found a Duke (or Ducal heir?) married to a Tengri woman whose father was a King, understandable. But the Manichean with no notable relatives seems a little strange. Also my current character is married to a formerly Jewish Italian Princess of Ashkenazi culture. Although that one is pretty obvious.

NPCs generally make really dumb marriage decisions. It could be that there were no suitable marriages available (the AI wanted to reserve the right to war someone, everyone else was already taken) and they simply picked out of undesirable options. The pagans could have been in their court after fleeing from other nations, for example.

[Corvus]

Speaking of the lunatic trait - is it hereditary? I had a patch in my Makuria game where it seemed ruler after ruler went mad (the ones so far in the aar aren't the end of that fun period.)

It is either that or the Byzantine Curse, as they call it, really does exist...

[Artanis]

Speaking of the lunatic trait - is it hereditary? I had a patch in my Makuria game where it seemed ruler after ruler went mad (the ones so far in the aar aren't the end of that fun period.)

It is either that or the Byzantine Curse, as they call it, really does exist...

It is not congenital per se, but I think that inbreeding can increase the chance of being born with it. I know that Zoroastrians get an increased chance of being born lunatics (with a corresponding decrease in the chance of the Inbred trait), just to make the religion playable.

[Corvus]

Hrm, okay. I haven't had inbred show up though, and I tended to marry outside the line, normally from foreign countries, to make up for weaknesses in the ruler's stats as well. Still, it made for an interesting time in the game.

[Leecros]

Huh, It looks like Umbra Spherae was updated back in February. Iiinteresting...I may have to take a break from achievement hunting to play it for awhile.

For those who are unaware, Umbra Spherae is a mod that was made back before Rajas of India. It was significant in the sense that it added India, China, Japan and the rest of Eastern Asia. However, after Rajas came out, the mod sort of fizzled out.

It would seem that they have returned and are now aiming for bigger goals of a global Crusader Kings II map.

Personally, I enjoyed Umbra Spherae while it was around...even though the regions added in were very vanilla compared to the regions made by Paradox. It was still enjoyable to see how The Far East turned out while you were building your own little empire in the west.

If anyone is interested...The thread is here. You will need a Paradox forum account to access it.

Just a little warning...it will likely greatly slow your game down...

[Tentreto]

On a playthrough now, and I might need a definitive answer, as it's ironman.

Starting as Flanders, I formed Friza, and eventually got into a few tussles with the HRH, and in order to survive, I had to join up.

Now, I have managed to imprison the Kaiser through intrigue but I need to know, what can I do from here, as it was more a lucky bit of spite than tactics.
I was hoping that I could declare myself Kaiser through factions, but, as it is ironman, I can't test it?
Any clarifications or better ideas would be great.

[Anxe]

On a playthrough now, and I might need a definitive answer, as it's ironman.

Starting as Flanders, I formed Friza, and eventually got into a few tussles with the HRH, and in order to survive, I had to join up.

Now, I have managed to imprison the Kaiser through intrigue but I need to know, what can I do from here, as it was more a lucky bit of spite than tactics.
I was hoping that I could declare myself Kaiser through factions, but, as it is ironman, I can't test it?
Any clarifications or better ideas would be great.

I don't think you can declare war on people you have imprisoned, so starting a faction for yourself taking the throne won't work. Backing a relative to take the throne might work? Just keep the Kaizer stewing in your prison and have your councilor go stir up trouble with someone in the HRE with a claim on the crown. Hopefully that person will start a faction and declare war. Then you can join that war. You have the opposing leader imprisoned, so you joining results in an instant victory. New Emperor will love you and hopefully shower your with fiefs.

[Rockphed]

Is the HRH elective succession? Then spend time making nice with the electors. Once they are voting for you, throw the Kaiser in the oubliette. He should die quickly enough.

[Leecros]

I don't think you can declare war on people you have imprisoned, so starting a faction for yourself taking the throne won't work.

It's interesting how you can, in the middle of a war, capture the leader of the opposition and immediately force him to surrender to you, but you can't actually declare war on him and press your demands. I suppose that would be too gamey, but what really is the difference between forcing him to sign over whatever you want while fighting a war while he is in your dungeon vs forcing him to sign over whatever you want to prevent a war while he is in your dungeon.

In other news, after taking a break from CKII to go play the latest EUIV expansion...I finally made it back to continue my India game.

Spoiler

Show

My Very Own Subcontinent: Get.

The amusing part is that after I formed my little pre-India Empire, I inherited the remaining two empires in India diplomatically as a proper Jainist. Nice and non-passively. Although inheriting so many empires has once again taught me how obnoxiously messy and bad the AI is at managing their vassals. I've pretty much given up on making them nice and pretty and just focusing on making sure none of them get too too powerful while trying to keep my vassal limit below maximum.

[Corvus]

Ouch, the Mongol border gore.

[IthilanorStPete]

On a playthrough now, and I might need a definitive answer, as it's ironman.

Starting as Flanders, I formed Friza, and eventually got into a few tussles with the HRH, and in order to survive, I had to join up.

Now, I have managed to imprison the Kaiser through intrigue but I need to know, what can I do from here, as it was more a lucky bit of spite than tactics.
I was hoping that I could declare myself Kaiser through factions, but, as it is ironman, I can't test it?
Any clarifications or better ideas would be great.

Unless they changed how factions work, you should be able to make yourself Kaiser. Start a faction for yourself, then send an ultimatum to the Kaiser. If he refuses, he's the one who technically declares the war, so the restriction against DoW'ing your prisoners doesn't affect you. As soon as the war starts, you'll have 100% warscore from holding the Kaiser captive.

[Leecros]

Ouch, the Mongol border gore.

Yeah...

The Mongols vassalized a Turkish Sultan. I believe he's the Sultan of Khiva and Turkestan, maybe Cumania? He was pretty large for the longest time...Anyway, after Ghengis Khan died, his successor suicided his hordes against Byzantium for Armenia and that Sultan decided to take that moment to revolt and took most of the Mongol Empire with him. It only happened a few years back which is why the border gore is so bad...Hopefully after a few decades, the Muslim rulers in the region will annex the remnants. I would, but Jain characters don't get Holy War CB's

[Avilan the Grey]

Hopefully I will buy Conclave next week.
I will start as Gälta again, in Dal (the speck of dirt between Norway and Sweden in 1066). Last time I played with the default ruler, and ended up king of Sweden within two generations. The first thing I did was to swear fealty to the King (Sweden) before he could demand it of me (Dal starts as independent, for some reason) so I soon became his favorite underling. Until I jailed the crown prince for life... but what was I to do? He (the crown prince) was my underling in my Duchy, and I could not NOT jail him for plotting to murder my wife...
I actually had no plans of doing that... But when the king then died of depression because of my actions, I put my Son's name forward on a lark and he won(!).

This time I wonder if I should swear fealty to Denmark instead. Just because. Also, a custom ruler (dwarf) with Dwarf and Wounded as bad traits and then fill up with good ones.

[Manticoran]

So, I openly declared myself as Emperor of Kislev as a Cultist of Khorne, along with summoning a whole bunch of demons... And I don't get the option to off all my vassals or even revoke their stuff with no penalties, so I'm now the really awkward Khornate Emperor of Kislev whose vassals all want to kill him, can't change succession type(And it's currently Elective), and am soooooo very screwed. You'd think Khorne would at least get to revoke titles from people who don't worship Chaos or something.

[Ionbound]

How many did you get with the 'Convert to Khorne' plot before you openly declared?

[Tentreto]

So, after deliberating, I decided to demand lowered crown authority in the HRH, in order to take over from the inside...and for some reason, the Kaiser accepted my demands, lowered crown authority... and thus stayed in my dungeon.
I decided to then put myself as Kaiser to steal prestige and gold from a war victory, only to discover some bishop had already started that faction- and I could in fact not be the leader of the 'me for Kaiser' faction.
Needless to say, Kaiser died, and status quo returned.
Though my character may have annoyed some elder gods, seemingly getting a strange ill omen event a few times. Either way, intrigue seems to be the way in an empire. Thanks for the clarifications!

[Avilan the Grey]

...Finally reading all the reviews and problems with this, and I might not buy Conclave after all. There seems to be horrendous balancing problems, for one thing.

[Leecros]

Most of the negative reviews I have read seem to revolve around people who can't, or won't manage their council effectively.

Personally, I've never had an issue passing laws that I want to and it's actually very abusable. You can essentially game the system by buying favors off of courtiers and then assigning them council positions and have them vote for whatever you want before kicking them out for your powerful vassals. If the council is empowered and allowed to do a vote on whether to declare war or not, then any person on your council cannot join factions unless the council is discontent. Which means that you can essentially eliminate several of your most powerful vassals from joining factions except in all but a few circumstances. The only times that the council gets discontent is for two years after succession and whenever you go against their wishes.

Although admittedly there is a fair chance of the council trying to increase their power after every ruler dies...It can be kind of annoying, but it's not like it's an independence war.

Overall I feel as if there could have been less backlash over the council idea if it was implemented from the start. Players have had four years of ruling their country absolutely with little to no consequences. Now they have to keep in mind the wishes of their council and some are crying foul.

The other thing i saw in complaints a lot was about the new education system. Personally I like the extra depth involved with it...although It can be a little tedious when you have a massive family tree with 3-400 members most of which lie within your borders. However, it has always been a little tedious.

With that said, if you're really unsure of whether to buy ti or not, wait for a 75% off sale. If you don't like the added mechanics, then disable the dlc and never speak of it again...

[Artanis]

I think the new education system is significantly better once you get used to it. You have much more control over what traits your future heirs have, and it's not like you have to put more effort into the kids you don't really care about. Culture and religion conversion via education is also a hell of a lot easier.

As for the council, what has ended up annoying me the most is how the "most powerful vassals" list keeps changing due to rebellions. Duke X gets annoyed for not being on the council, so I put him on the council, then his vassals start YET ANOTHER Increase Council Power rebellion, making him no longer one of my strongest vassals, so now Duchess Y gets bumped up onto the list and gets angry for me not firing Duke X, then the rebellion ends and Duke X is wanting me to fire Duchess Y and give him his spot back, but then Quadra-Count Z wins a holy war and becomes a double-duke, relegating Duke X to blah blah blah

[Leecros]

As for the council, what has ended up annoying me the most is how the "most powerful vassals" list keeps changing due to rebellions. Duke X gets annoyed for not being on the council, so I put him on the council, then his vassals start YET ANOTHER Increase Council Power rebellion, making him no longer one of my strongest vassals, so now Duchess Y gets bumped up onto the list and gets angry for me not firing Duke X, then the rebellion ends and Duke X is wanting me to fire Duchess Y and give him his spot back, but then Quadra-Count Z wins a holy war and becomes a double-duke, relegating Duke X to blah blah blah

Perhaps I have just been fortunate so far. However, in my experiences, when you're small if a powerful vassal becomes rebellious from not being on the council. They can typically be offput by just hiring a mercenary band or something(assuming you have the money for such things). When you're larger and your powerful vassal-Kings number in the twenty thousand range. They're much less likely to have the powerful vassal modifier shuffled around between them.

One thing that I have missed is Medium and above Crown Authority. Disallowing internal wars does wonders for keeping your realm stable. I have had to pull the Maharaja of Mongolia and the Maharaja of Khotan apart multiple times, because Khotan keeps attacking Mongolia for the Raj of Altay which drifted under the Khotan crown centuries before I took control of the region. Of course, I suppose that's the purpose of Enforcing Realm Peace now which the above situation is exactly what I've been using that option for every 10 years.

[Artanis]

Perhaps I have just been fortunate so far. However, in my experiences, when you're small if a powerful vassal becomes rebellious from not being on the council. They can typically be offput by just hiring a mercenary band or something(assuming you have the money for such things). When you're larger and your powerful vassal-Kings number in the twenty thousand range. They're much less likely to have the powerful vassal modifier shuffled around between them.

It isn't really a problem so much as it's just an annoyance. In my current game, I'm an Emperor with 8 Viceroy-King vassals who, despite a fair bit of effort to keep them even, are still in enough of a rough hierarchy for me to have a good idea of the probable members of the "red fist icon" club under normal circumstances. So I'm not really having much actual trouble keeping them in line. That doesn't change the fact that it's really f***ing annoying for somebody to suddenly have a -40 opinion penalty, only for it to go away a year and a half later when one of the other viceroys finishes bludgeoning rebels into submission.

[Avilan the Grey]

The big problems I have seen is both regarding the council, really:

1. You are basically no longer a feudal lord but instead a president, and the power of your council needs to be nerfed greatly to avoid that (I must say a permanent -40 for not being put on the council to begin with seems VERY VERY unbalanced, for example). In real life this is completely unrealistic. In fact the original setup is far MORE realistic than this.

2. The power of the council leading basically every single Catholic monarchy in the game becoming Elective within a few generations because of point 1. And I am talking about the non-played ones.

[Leecros]

1. You are basically no longer a feudal lord but instead a president, and the power of your council needs to be nerfed greatly to avoid that (I must say a permanent -40 for not being put on the council to begin with seems VERY VERY unbalanced, for example). In real life this is completely unrealistic. In fact the original setup is far MORE realistic than this.

Except...Not...The concept of an absolute ruler was not something that was prevalent in the Middle-Ages. It didn't start manifesting until the later periods of the time frame that Crusader Kings II covers. A King's vassals and (to a much greater extent) their council definitely had influence on what a King decided to do. Vassals had land and money and armies and it was an important task for a Feudal Lord to keep them content or they would express their displeasure in various ways. A King couldn't just do whatever he wanted with no backlash.

It was a union of necessity as the administration efficiency of the Roman Empire was gone outside of the ERE requiring rulers to give out land, because they could not possibly manage it all. In fact, part of the reason why France had such an issue during the Hundred Years War is because they were still very feudal at the time and their vassals were much more autonomous than their foes. That is also why for the longest time in Europa Universalis that France's land was full of vassal nations instead of the large, unified nations that other countries get. They were late to the party. There is a fairly large difference between a Feudal Monarchy and an Absolute Monarchy.

However, you certainly aren't a President. You can still do pretty much anything you want, t's just that there's consequences in doing so if the council doesn't approve...That is: The council will be discontent and will be allowed to join factions for...three years i think. After those three years, if they have joined a faction that hasn't fired. They leave it.

As far as the -40 opinion goes. I agree that It would be better if it was -20 or -30, -40 is a bit extreme, but it only applies to your most powerful vassals. Of course they would want to be on your council that badly. The are...in their opinion the most powerful people in the realm. However, I have really not found it to be that large of a deal, personally.

2. The power of the council leading basically every single Catholic monarchy in the game becoming Elective within a few generations because of point 1. And I am talking about the non-played ones.

I've had a game running from 867 to 1350 so far and there are only two elective monarchies in Europe. This isn't something that I have experienced.