Clerics and Shillelagh

[Osiris]

So far in the campaign, the DM has let us basically change our character every game session if we wish. This is because we just started 5th edition (it looks great!)
So far, I've tried out two clerics (a trickery one and a nature one). I'm now thinking about War Cleric, because they appear to be battlefield monsters. There's one problem, however.
The cantrip Shillelagh. Nature Cleric gets it, war cleric does NOT.
So I can (1) wait another level til 4th level to get that feat which gets you a cantrip, or (2) take a druid level.
Actually, I could take more than one druid level, but preferably not more than three.

Furthermore, Fighter can get me more attacks. I need to find a balance between Cleric, Druid (?), and Fighter (?).
Any help?

[Jlooney]

It really depends on what level your game is going to end at. If you have the possibility of getting 9th level spells then don't dip at all. There have been plenty of threads that did the math. If you're only going to hit mid levels then a fighter dip isn't bad but after that you use the multiclass spell slot chart. Druids on the other hand are alright but when you shapeshift you loose out on all the perks of being a cleric. You can't cast while shifted and you gain only marginal benefits if you're going the caster route.

[Fwiffo86]

So far in the campaign, the DM has let us basically change our character every game session if we wish. This is because we just started 5th edition (it looks great!)
So far, I've tried out two clerics (a trickery one and a nature one). I'm now thinking about War Cleric, because they appear to be battlefield monsters. There's one problem, however.
The cantrip Shillelagh. Nature Cleric gets it, war cleric does NOT.
So I can (1) wait another level til 4th level to get that feat which gets you a cantrip, or (2) take a druid level.
Actually, I could take more than one druid level, but preferably not more than three.

Furthermore, Fighter can get me more attacks. I need to find a balance between Cleric, Druid (?), and Fighter (?).
Any help?

Is one cantrip worth the effort? If your cleric is in beating down the bad guys without being a war cleric, I would recommend the fighter levels.

I don't see a "need" for class levels to get one cantrip.

[Shadow]

Is variant human not an option? Pure cleric with Magic Initiate (druid) for shillelagh, thorn whip and a 1st level druid spell to your liking.

[Osiris]

Is variant human not an option? Pure cleric with Magic Initiate (druid) for shillelagh, thorn whip and a 1st level druid spell to your liking.

That. . . Sounds really good, actually. The thing was that Hill Dwarf looks great as a cleric of war or nature. I can sacrifice it, however, if need be. Thank you.

In hindsight, perhaps I will wait until a couple sessions later before I pull out this third cleric in as many game sessions

[Socko525]

Also just be mindful if you decided to take a druid level, you wouldn't be able to use any metal armor to cast druid spells.

[hymer]

Also just be mindful if you decided to take a druid level, you wouldn't be able to use any metal armor to cast druid spells.

You would, in fact, be unwilling to wear metal armour at all. So saith the text, though I'm AFB and can't provide the page quote.

[Socko525]

You would, in fact, be unwilling to wear metal armour at all. So saith the text, though I'm AFB and can't provide the page quote.

Correct upon further inspection. Page 65, under Proficiencies: "Light armor, medium armor, shields (druids will not wear armor of use shields made of metal)"

[Inevitability]

Correct upon further inspection. Page 65, under Proficiencies: "Light armor, medium armor, shields (druids will not wear armor of use shields made of metal)"

That's where a wizard conveniently Dominates you into putting on the cursed unremovable armor he made. You can easily get a high AC while technically being true to your vows, see?

[SharkForce]

or, by that point in the game that the wizard can dominate anyone, you can probably get your hands on armour that is not made of metal but is as strong as metal. ankheg plate, for example, may not be statted out in 5e (to my knowledge; i don't own a DMG), but has traditionally in D&D been used for making excellent quality heavy armour.

[MeeposFire]

or, by that point in the game that the wizard can dominate anyone, you can probably get your hands on armour that is not made of metal but is as strong as metal. ankheg plate, for example, may not be statted out in 5e (to my knowledge; i don't own a DMG), but has traditionally in D&D been used for making excellent quality heavy armour.

Other classic options would include things like dragon skin or arumvorax pelts.

[Osiris]

arumvorax pelts.

Arumvorax what nows?
Anyway, I'm still debating Variant Human.

My current feat choices are as follows: Magic Initiate (Druid), Wis +2, Wis +2, Sentinel, War Caster.
The last two feats can change. However, that is not really the issue.
Should I be a variant human or stick with hill dwarf (netting me, primarily, +1 con and +1 hp per level)? I can't decide, but I don't even know what my last feat would be, so I may well stick with Hill Dwarf.
Thoughts?

[SharkForce]

Other classic options would include things like dragon skin or arumvorax pelts.

not sure aurumvorax pelts actually qualify for druid use. they are, after all, primarily gold by weight :P

[MeeposFire]

Arumvorax what nows?
Anyway, I'm still debating Variant Human.

My current feat choices are as follows: Magic Initiate (Druid), Wis +2, Wis +2, Sentinel, War Caster.
The last two feats can change. However, that is not really the issue.
Should I be a variant human or stick with hill dwarf (netting me, primarily, +1 con and +1 hp per level)? I can't decide, but I don't even know what my last feat would be, so I may well stick with Hill Dwarf.
Thoughts?

An aurumvorax (sorry spelling is not my strong suit) it is a critter that eats gold and if you kill it and take its pelt it can be made into a robe with great AC that anybody can wear (in AD&D anyway) though it is fairly heavy. It is a nasty critter though so look out.

[Dalebert]

Shillelagh seems great until Shocking Grasp scales up in damage at 5th level. After that, it's one advantage over SG seems to be that it can be used for AoO (unless you have War Caster).

[hymer]

Shillelagh seems great until Shocking Grasp scales up in damage at 5th level. After that, it's one advantage over SG seems to be that it can be used for AoO (unless you have War Caster).

Shillelagh damage (magical bludgeoning) is much more dependable than lightning damage. But that said, you're right that for Shillelagh to compete with other cantrips as levels advance, you need to find ways to attack multiple times with it in a round.

[SharkForce]

Shillelagh seems great until Shocking Grasp scales up in damage at 5th level. After that, it's one advantage over SG seems to be that it can be used for AoO (unless you have War Caster).

that all depends. if you have a way to get more attacks, shilellagh can stay pretty good. obviously pure clerics and pure druids aren't so great in that department, but it can be a handy thing for a monk for the first few levels, and i suppose if someone made a dex/wis rogue or something like that it might work out for them too (you'd probably need at least one monk level and a DM who agrees with the last WotC statement on monks with monk weapons counting as finesse for sneak attack to make it work as well, so it's a moderately complex combination).

[Dalebert]

that all depends. if you have a way to get more attacks, shilellagh can stay pretty good.

Good point. I wasn't thinking like that and I should have considering I recently made a valor bard/tome lock who took this in his tome with this in mind since he will get an extra attack before long.

[Osiris]

Hmmmm. . . Shocking grasp. . .
That will end up doing (at 20th level or somesuch) 4d8 electricity damage. avg d8 = 4.5, total DPS for one cast: 18.
Shillelagh spell on a Staff of Striking: d8 +5 +(staff of striking some thing here) = 9.5 damage + staff of striking damage. hmmm

However, War Priest, the 1st level War Cleric ability, can let me take another Attack action as a bonus action. New DPS: 19.
War Priest, however, only works (wis mod) so max 5 times per day, but in the current campaign, we rarely have more than two fights per day.

Looks like Shillelagh comes out on top, even without using the Staff's special ability.

Downsides: no advantage (many people wear armor), uses bonus action
Pros: not electricity damage, DPS can be boosted w/ Staff's ability.
Shillelagh it is.

[Rilak]

Hmmmm. . . Shocking grasp. . .
That will end up doing (at 20th level or somesuch) 4d8 electricity damage. avg d8 = 4.5, total DPS for one cast: 18.
Shillelagh spell on a Staff of Striking: d8 +5 +(staff of striking some thing here) = 9.5 damage + staff of striking damage. hmmm

However, War Priest, the 1st level War Cleric ability, can let me take another Attack action as a bonus action. New DPS: 19.
War Priest, however, only works (wis mod) so max 5 times per day, but in the current campaign, we rarely have more than two fights per day.

Looks like Shillelagh comes out on top, even without using the Staff's special ability.

Downsides: no advantage (many people wear armor), uses bonus action
Pros: not electricity damage, DPS can be boosted w/ Staff's ability.
Shillelagh it is.

Shillelagh at 16 is 3d8+5 with any domain that adds d8's to damage (more with a magic staff; note that a +3 staff does not require attunement, but a staff of striking does). Shocking Grasp is 4d8 and lower chance to hit unless it has advantage (uses INT). Bonus actions can be spent on different things (healing word, spiritual weapon, war cleric bonus attack, etc).

I don't think the War Priest abilities are that powerful except for Avatar of Battle (@17). The main things it has over Nature or Tempest is a rather impressive spell selection. If you are going to spend a feat on Shillelagh, I would just go Nature instead though.

[Osiris]

Shillelagh at 16 is 3d8+5 with any domain that adds d8's to damage

Oh yeah. It does. I think that I'll keep War Cleric, though. I like its abilities.

However, earlier I mentioned the sticky business of choosing a race.

My current feat choices are as follows:
Magic Initiate (Druid), Wis +2, Wis +2, Sentinel, War Caster.

I could take Variant Human (currently going Hill Dwarf) IF I wanted a feat. Does anybody have race or feat suggestions?

[Rilak]

I could take Variant Human (currently going Hill Dwarf) IF I wanted a feat. Does anybody have race or feat suggestions?

Given that Dwarves make the best clerics, you should be good (no STR needed to carry plate).

Since you can start with 15+2 CON 15+1 WIS, 2 stat increases on WIS is a given. And the Druid cantrips for Shillelagh. 2 choices remain. I would pick Resilient(CON) for the saves and concentration checks rather than War Caster (since you go to 18 CON with the resilient as well). Rather than Sentinel, I would go for Polearm Master since you would rely on Shillelagh (Sentinel is better if you want to cast spells more and mainly rely on OA's for swinging your weapon).

As for Resilient vs. War Caster, after +4 proficiency you are usually better off with Resilient:
At +4 proficiency, 18 CON, vs. 17 CON+adv, taking <=20 damage (DC10): 95% vs. 91%
At +4 proficiency, 18 CON, vs. 17 CON+adv, taking 30 damage (DC15): 70% vs. 70%
At +4 proficiency, 18 CON, vs. 17 CON+adv, taking 40 damage (DC20): 45% vs. 36%
At +4 proficiency, 18 CON, vs. 17 CON+adv, taking 50 damage (DC25): 20% vs. 0%

[Osiris]

Okay then. This looks great. Thanks all around!

EDIT: Wait, what about strength? Should I go Str 13 and Chain Mail, or Str 15 and Plate mail? The latter goes against the focus of using Shillelagh to become Single Attribute Dependent, but +2 AC (IIRC) is +2 AC.

[Rilak]

Wait, what about strength? Should I go Str 13 and Chain Mail, or Str 15 and Plate mail? The latter goes against the focus of using Shillelagh to become Single Attribute Dependent, but +2 AC (IIRC) is +2 AC.

You can ignore the STR requirements if you play as Dwarf. That is the beauty of it. 8 STR is enough to carry 120 lbs of equipment (plate mail is 65 lbs, shield is 6 lbs, staff is 4 lbs). STR will add a little at lower levels, but you could go 8 STR/INT/CHA 15 WIS/CON/DEX if you like (or probably lower DEX a little and even out the saves).

[SharkForce]

they aren't even strength requirements, per se. it just slows you down.

furthermore, don't be fooled too much by the heavy armour. if you have decent dex (and i would argue there's more benefit typically for having decent dex than decent strength), medium armour + shield is only 1 AC behind.

[Osiris]

*Checks*
Wow, you're right! With Half-plate armor (15 + 2 [dex]), I'd be just one point shy of Full Plate. Let me consider my stats then.
Magic Initiate, +2 wis, +2 wis, Polearm master, Resilient (con).

Wisdom 15 (dwarf +1) [stats +4]
Con 15 {resilient +1}
Dex 14
Str 10
Int 8
Wis 8

This. . . Works fine! Thanks.
As for my mental stats, well I think I drunk too much ale. . . .

[Rilak]

With Half-plate armor (15 + 2 [dex]), I'd be just one point shy of Full Plate.

Wisdom 15 (dwarf +1) [stats +4]
Con 15 (dwarf +2resilient +1)
Dex 14

Not to mention, you can choose either Full Plate or Half-Plate in treasures. The only difference is full plate would add 1 AC. This is amazing since you can use all of the treasure that the rest of the party no longer wants. Most warriors, paladins, and clerics tend to have low dex, so they are unable to use medium armor efficiently.

+2 DEX saves aren't amazing, but they are good enough to avoid a little damage. Your CON and WIS will end up at +10/+11. And as Hill Dwarf you get +5 HP/level. Very sturdy character.

[SharkForce]

+2 dex isn't just +2 to dex saves though (especially if you were going to dump dex to 8, at that point it's +3). it's +2 to stealth (group checks work based on half the group making those checks, so this can actually be helpful to have multiple group members reasonably likely to make the check), +2 to initiative (big one here!), and so forth. dex does a lot of useful little things.

[TheOOB]

No Clerics primary impact on battle is going to be through weapon attacks. Shillelagh is an alright cantrip, but weapon attacks are going to quickly become nothing but a backup before you hit double digit levels. You can just make such a bigger impact with a spell, and you'll have plenty of spell slots.

[Osiris]

No Clerics primary impact on battle is going to be through weapon attacks. Shillelagh is an alright cantrip, but weapon attacks are going to quickly become nothing but a backup before you hit double digit levels. You can just make such a bigger impact with a spell, and you'll have plenty of spell slots.

That is true and all, but my current party has NO tanks/melee warriors OR healers at all. Clerics (or druids) can do both. I'm just more familiar with Cleric. Thank you for mentioning that, though. I have not looked through every spell. What spells would you be casting at around level 15-20? I'm curious as to whether some 3.5 spells were nerfed or buffed, or if any new great spells arose.