Dresden: Alternate anvil materials

[fluke1993]

Evening playground. I am currently taking part in a Dresden RPG game. To make a long story short, I am playing a (summer) Faerie smith who makes magical items. The problem here is that my character isn't particularly loved by his people and doesn't really have access to the supernatural materials they use to make their forge-craft. Since he iron will not conduct fae magic(and thus steel as well) he would have to use something else to ply his craft. While this isn't to big of a thing for the things he would be making (copper, silver and a bunch of other materials could be brought up to snuff as part of the forging) it does pose a problem for the tools that do the job. I could say the anvil is enchanted as well, but I don't want to do that.

So my question to all you metallurgists out there is this, what would be a good material to make an anvil out of that is not an alloy of iron. Note that alloys that MAY contain iron, but don't have to are fine, so long as the loss of the iron would not make it unusable as an anvil. Ideally this substance would do just as a good a job as a forged tool steel anvil.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm no metallurgist, and I don't have a clue about this setting, but here's a question: Do your magical items need to be forged? Can he cheat by casting instead?

[Red Fel]

I'd go old school on this one - stone. Hear me out, here.

Picture it. A stone table, in the open, surrounded by candles and bowls of water. Earth, air, fire, water - we know how important symbols are in Dresdenverse. The slab itself is magically reinforced, because d'uh. It is also inlaid with gold and silver filigree patterns - again, symbolism, the crude stone matter wrought with the elegant and precious metals. The designs of the engravings include various depictions of the Fae - tying the craftsman to his estranged kin, and through that to their power - as well as depictions of craftsmanship and combat - tying the craftsman and the crafted items to their inevitable uses. Again, symbolism everywhere.

Use an open furnace to smith the substances, as well as molds and the like. A nearby river is ideal. And all the final work is performed on this heavily symbolic slab of stone, risen from the womb of the earth itself.

[Anderlith]

I suggest old school stone as well. it's the oldest anvil material & resonates well with the Dresden world. (Like the Stone Table)

[fluke1993]

@Stone Pad suggestion:
While such a stone pad would be incredibly flavorful, it's not really the angle I want to play. What I am looking for is a hunk of metal, that a vanilla smith w/ no magic could use to forge a sword, that contains no iron. Problem with the stone pad is that this thing has to go into an actual place of business, where mortals will be walking into and out of on a regular basis.

@Honest Teifling:
Unfortunately no, enchanting an item someone else has made is much harder (GM house rule) so I need to craft this stuff myself.

[Red Fel]

@Stone Pad suggestion:
While such a stone pad would be incredibly flavorful, it's not really the angle I want to play. What I am looking for is a hunk of metal, that a vanilla smith w/ no magic could use to forge a sword, that contains no iron. Problem with the stone pad is that this thing has to go into an actual place of business, where mortals will be walking into and out of on a regular basis.

Not necessarily.

It wouldn't be hard to carve out a tiny corner of the Nevernever, and key a portal in the back to a door leading into a small courtyard. Design the courtyard, complete with stone anvil, to resemble your Nevernever smithy - thus further anchoring the connection.

Picture it. It's a small storefront, with a sign on the door and everything. The customer walking by on the street can see smoke rising behind the building, and somebody walking through can see that the storefront - with displays and whatnot - opens to a small garden in the back with an open-air forge and everything. You'll have all the necessary permits. Locals will find it quaint and intriguing - you can even promote it as an "olde style smithy" complete with pretentious extra "e"s. Smithing on a block of stone? How charming. However, when you (or someone at your direction) open the door, you walk right into your little garden in the Nevernever, with the real deal sitting there, waiting for your handiwork. This allows you to use the regular slab for mundane clients, and the real thing for "special" clients.

It also creates a nice little plot-hook for you. Maintaining a stable Nevernever portal has its own issues, as does trying to keep your own little slice of anything-but-paradise safe from squatters.

[cobaltstarfire]

(I don't know anything about the setting)

I haven't heard of anvils made of anything but stone, iron, or steel, but with some poking around I learned that before iron/steel there were sometimes bronze anvils?

Generally speaking whatever metal you choose for the anvil you're going to want it to be heavy and hard but not too brittle, with a heat tolerance higher than whatever metal you will be forging.

I've been told bronze is on the brittle side (and I believe it, as it's definitely harder to bend than steel), but it'll probably do for your characters needs. The main issue is that misuse or accidents may end in the horn breaking off if it has one, or the face being damaged more easily than with your typical iron anvil.

I've only ever forged steel though (and only for a semester).

[Knaight]

Bronze should work, particularly phosphor bronzes. If the character has some cash they're willing to throw around, tungsten alloys might work, though a less brittle one would have to be selected. That's kind of overkill on the temperature resistance end though, and phosphor bronzes are probably a better idea.

With that said, stone is the obvious choice. From the sounds of things the metals that are being forged with are generally softer metals which can be worked at comparatively low temperatures, a nice hard stone will handle that just fine.

[Sith_Happens]

Would titanium work? Or perhaps a carbide of some sort?

[Honest Tiefling]

@Honest Teifling:
Unfortunately no, enchanting an item someone else has made is much harder (GM house rule) so I need to craft this stuff myself.

Uh, I didn't mean casting as getting someone else to do it, but making a wax model and then casting the metal into the proper shape. I have no idea if this would work as I am not familiar with the setting.

[cobaltstarfire]

Alternatively make up a magical metal and don't worry about real world properties.

Most anvils are cast or forged, so if you must also make your own anvil you're going to have to start with a stone anvil and forge it, buy it from someone else, or cast it from a mold.

[BRKNdevil]

the fae in dresdenverse don't have to worry about magic screwing tech up for them, so there are a few metals he could go with. Most of their silver is enchanted to be decently strong but a basic steel blade will still cut through it since their enchantments are as weak to the iron as they are. He has used depleted uranium and damaged the fae so that might not work. Stones from places of Power seem to be harder to break than would normally be possible so that might be a solution. Could be he is just very careful and uses Iron. I know at one point Dresden payed off a gnome smith to have his personal summoner's ring have a band of iron with spells woven in so apparently there are fae who work with iron but only for a considerable sum.

Anyone hoping that dresden gets two bases, one on the island and one in chicago using all he gained from the king of the underworld?

[Xuc Xac]

Would titanium work?

Not very familiar with titanium, are you? It's not a super metal. It's like a slightly better version of aluminum.

[Knaight]

Not very familiar with titanium, are you? It's not a super metal. It's like a slightly better version of aluminum.

I wouldn't characterize it that way. It fills some of the same niches, but there are substantial differences between the two, including a number of areas where aluminum is a better option (for instance: the aluminum oxide coating is really useful in a lot of cases). Neither is particularly well suited for an anvil though.

[Sith_Happens]

Not very familiar with titanium, are you?

That's kind of exactly why I was asking rather than suggesting.

[Almarck]

Since more than a few people have no little idea of the setting, I'll add some information in the hopes that people would use it to form better feedback.

The setting is the modern day but with the supernatural/magical world hiding in the shadows in some form or another. Every myth seems to be real in one shape or another, including gods. Including the "Big G", Odin, and the other stuff.

The specifics are largely unimportant, but what is important is this:
The character is playing a fae. Despite that, fairies have done things such as use machine guns.
They do not like iron or steel and it does nasty things to them. They can use iron tools though if the tool in question has a grip that does not contain iron.
Ergo, what materials in the modern age would help make an anvil?

Other rules and specifics aren't important

[Sith_Happens]

Ergo, what materials in the modern age would help make an anvil?

For one thing, I still haven't gotten an answer as to whether there's a carbide that would.

[cobaltstarfire]

I have a feeling carbides would also make pretty bad anvils, carbide tipped tools and things crack and chip really easily. That's about all my experience with carbide things.

If iron is ok as long as fae don't touch it directly too much it should be fine to use your typical iron/steel anvil, you don't really touch an anvil much even when cold forging. And even if you might, unless it's small work it's much more comfortable to do all that hammering wearing gloves as they make for good shock absorbers.

[saxavarius]

Carbide is a very hard metal but is also brittle. A sharp impact that is hard enough will destroy carbide, So it would be terrible to make an anvil with it. The best idea i could think of would be to just use an iron anvil ad have it be coated in a layer some oxide that is impact resistant.

[Xuc Xac]

They can use iron tools though if the tool in question has a grip that does not contain iron.
Ergo, what materials in the modern age would help make an anvil?

At what point in the smithing process do you touch the anvil with your bare hands?

[cobaltstarfire]

The best idea i could think of would be to just use an iron anvil ad have it be coated in a layer some oxide that is impact resistant.

The best idea would be to go out into the country and just find a typical iron anvil to redress, or to buy a brand new one that'll be super shiny on account that patina isn't really a thing you do to anvils.

[Red Fel]

At what point in the smithing process do you touch the anvil with your bare hands?

It's not just that. It's the collateral risk. At one point, Harry (the first-person narrator or the books) compares leaving a piece of iron in the Nevernever (the Fae world) with leaving atomic materials there. Its presence is, at best, unnerving to Fae; at worst, prolonged exposure - even without contact - can be sickening. There's also the risk of accidental contact - if a Fae accidentally sits on, stumbles over, brushes against or otherwise makes contact, it's like rinsing your hand in acid. Worse, if, during the smithing process, a tiny fragment breaks off or becomes airborne, it could get embedded in the skin, or even inhaled - it could be lethal.

It's understandable why a Fae craftsman would want to avoid any contact with iron whatsoever.

I agree, if you can get the surface alloyed in an impact-resistant manner, that might do well, but never forget that what's underneath is still iron, and if that coating gets pierced, the whole thing becomes a ticking time-bomb.

[Almarck]

I should have pointed out in my example for fay using iron or steel things it was A. tiny fairy using an iron box cutter that was given to him by a powerful wizard. He regards it as one of his most valuable possessions. I forgot what the handle was, but the blade is rusted iron. And B. Some of the Bill Goats Gruff (yes, THOSE) using machineguns. While the weapons haven't been given much detail, I believe that there's a few mechanical parts in them that were iron based, if nothing else, the loading springs in the magazines.

[Knaight]

I have a feeling carbides would also make pretty bad anvils, carbide tipped tools and things crack and chip really easily. That's about all my experience with carbide things.

Most anything really hard is going to have problems with being brittle, which is the big downside to using tungsten, though there could still be functional alloys. It's part of the reason I've pushed for phosphor bronzes, as they're hard enough to do the job but not ridiculously hard.

[Xuc Xac]

Worse, if, during the smithing process, a tiny fragment breaks off or becomes airborne, it could get embedded in the skin, or even inhaled - it could be lethal.

If you can't handle that little bit of exposure, then you shouldn't have any iron involved at all. There are tiny fragments of iron flying everywhere in a smithy. Modern day blacksmiths have trouble getting through airport security when they fly because their eyeballs set off the metal detector due to all the tiny iron flecks that get embedded in their body. I imagine one of them in a fistfight with a faerie would effectively have super kung fu movie punches.

[Need_A_Life]

Well, if you were Winter Fae, I would have suggested ice. Cold, dark blue or black ice. Why isn't it melting? Because A) magic B) it's the Nevernever.

Stone has already been suggested, though and seems more reasonable for a Summer Faerie... unless you want to throw up a huge question mark as to just how you got that anvil and whom you owe for it...

[Almarck]

If you can't handle that little bit of exposure, then you shouldn't have any iron involved at all. There are tiny fragments of iron flying everywhere in a smithy. Modern day blacksmiths have trouble getting through airport security when they fly because their eyeballs set off the metal detector due to all the tiny iron flecks that get embedded in their body. I imagine one of them in a fistfight with a faerie would effectively have super kung fu movie punches.

The problem with iron is that for humans that's a minor iinconvience. For fey in this setting it's practically suicidal. He get might go completely blind in the case of iron getting into the eye balls not to mention feel his corneas melting... probably literally.

Stone might be the best then since it's traditional and fey do usually abide by old customs

[cobaltstarfire]

The OP Specifically wants to use metal, so I'd just go with the Bronze. It's been used in the past so it has precedent.

It'd also be the easiest to make on his own too if he must. It'd probably be expensive though, several hundred pounds of bronze tends to be regardless of the alloy.

Knaight You don't need to repeat what I said back to me? I understand quite well that hard things are often brittle, you'll note in the very first post I made that I mentioned picking a material that is hard but not too brittle.

[Knaight]

Knaight You don't need to repeat what I said back to me? I understand quite well that hard things are often brittle, you'll note in the very first post I made that I mentioned picking a material that is hard but not too brittle.

My bad. I lost track of who said what.

[Sith_Happens]

Read the OP again, it's not just the possibility of exposure that's the problem with an iron or steel anvil, this character makes a lot of magical items and too much iron laying around apparently interferes with that.