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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    These are the buffs I've been running for the Monk in my game. The game in question is mid-low power, with the rest of the group consisting of two sorcerers (one fire specialised, one enchantment specialised), one sword-and-board melee cleric and one ninja. Because of the relatively low optimization levels in the group, the Monk doesn't suffer too badly, but he's still a Monk. Hence, these changes are meant to bring the Monk up to a high Tier 4 kind of level. I'm not entirely sold on the Tier system to begin with, but that hopefully gives you an idea of the power level I'm aiming for - making the Monk's abilities less insultingly useless. So far, the player seems happy with the changes, but I thought I might as well get the playground's opinions on it too.

    AC Bonus (Ex)
    The additional bonus to AC is increased to 1/4 of the monk’s class level, as opposed to 1/5.

    (Very small change here, to try and improve the Monk's issue of his Wisdom-to-AC often being worse than just wearing armor in the first place)

    Agility (Ex)
    At 3rd level, a monk begins to push his body beyond the normal limits. He may choose to add a permanent +10ft. increase to his base speed, or add a permanent +10 competence bonus to any two of the following skills: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Swim or Tumble. He can add another +10ft. or another +10 bonus at every 3rd level from then on (6th, 9th, 12th etc.). He may choose the bonus freely each time, regardless of how he chose in the past.
    For example, a 9th level monk could have:
    • +30ft. move speed;
    • +10ft. move speed and +10 balance, +10 climb, +10 jump, +10 tumble
    • +10ft. move speed and +20 balance, +20 climb
    • +10ft. move speed and +20 balance, +10 jump, +10 tumble
    None of these bonuses apply when the monk is wearing any kind of armour, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

    (Firstly, the speed bonus is no longer an enhancement bonus, meaning Monks can benefit from speed-enhancing-items. Secondly, large bonuses to movement skills mean the monk can be a really mobile fighter instead of just being fast)


    Wholeness of Body (Su)
    At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds. He may restore an amount of hitpoints equal to his monk level multiplied by his Wisdom modifier. In addition, he gains a +5 perfection bonus on Heal checks.

    (Lay on Hands for Monks! LoH may not be great, but Wholeness of Body is atrocious as is, so this is a bit of a step up.)

    Abundant Step (Su)
    At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. He can do this a number of times per day equal 3+his wisdom modifier. His effective caster level is half his monk level. Unlike with dimension door, a monk using Abundant Step can usually only affect himself. He may bring willing creatures with him by expending an additional two uses per additional person, though he cannot exceed the maximum amount as determined by his effective caster level.
    A monk may also use Abundant Step as a move equivalent action, but doing so requires 4 uses and he cannot bring anyone else with him (except a familiar, should he have one). When he uses Abundant Step as a move action, he may use any remaining actions before finishing his turn. Thus, a monk can use abundant step as a move action to appear next to an enemy, and then use his standard action to attack them.
    For example, a 12th level monk with 20 wisdom has 8 uses per day. His effective caster level is 6, so he may bring up to two willing allies with him, but doing so would cost a total of five uses (1 for him and 2 for each ally).

    (This might be a bit over-complex, but it gives the Monk a little more utility and mobility, the latter of which I think is sort of supposed to be the point of the class in the first place.)


    This is what I have at the moment for the simple fact that higher level abilities haven't come online yet in game and so haven't been relevant. If I expand this, the important parts for buffing in the future would probably be Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm and Perfect Self.

    Constructive criticisms welcomed!

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    Looks fine so far, although I think the cost for the move-action Abundant Step is a bit high. Might I suggest having it be a reduced-range, no-passengers bit instead? Say, the standard action takes you the full 400ft+40ft/level, while the move action only takes you 100ft or something. Maybe even have a Swift action version that just takes you 5ft/Wisdom modifier to get the full range of movement options.

    Otherwise... you've buffed some of the crappier options, but I'd recommend doing something about the following handful of issues:
    • Medium BAB on a full-melee class (without special powers or magic) is pretty sad.
    • MAD as a hatter-- you need Str for melee, Dex for AC, Con for health, Wis for AC and special powers, and Int to have enough skills to be interesting out-of-combat.
    • The class' two main features-- mobility and Flurry of Blows-- are mutually exclusive.
    • No ranged ability


    To solve MAD, you might allow Dex or Wis in place of Strength when using unarmed attacks and Monk special weapons. Flurry... you could replace it with Skirmish, but my favorite solution is to make the extra attack(s) apply to standard as well as full attacks. Thus, if your BAB was +6, you could Flurry as a standard action for +4/+4, or as a full-round action for +4/+4/+1. Doing so helps the Monk actually bounce around the battlefield, as opposed to having to sit in place and make full attacks like a plate-wearing fighter.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    Regarding the issues brought up by GtG...

    1. Having 6 + Int-mod skill points per level allows a monk to dump Int.
    2. Don't force a player to trade speed to gain skill bonuses. Simply granting +1 bonus per odd Monk level to all mobility skills won't break anything.
    3. Have Wis replace Str for attack rolls and damage as levels go up.
    (the above serve as a powerful tool to battle MADness)
    4. Embrace GtG's suggestions regarding Abundant Step and FoB. This will finally allow a monk to act as a decent skirmisher.

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    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    2. Don't force a player to trade speed to gain skill bonuses. Simply granting +1 bonus per odd Monk level to all mobility skills won't break anything.
    I actually like Poolol's version better-- the big bonuses (+30 at 9th level?) help make the movement skills interesting by letting you pull off impossible/epic stunts.
    3. Have Wis replace Str for attack rolls and damage as levels go up.
    Be careful about when you grant abilities like that. Getting Wis to attack and damage at 6th level is great if you start at 6th, but makes for 5 levels of pain if you start at 1st.
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    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    AC Bonus I have used +1 class bonus to AC per level for years. It works out just fine. The getting of a +4 or anything less then +10 at 20th level is pointless. And 20th level is +20 AC works out nice.

    Agility (Ex) I don't think mixing speed with skill bonuses is the right way to go. I use +10 every even level for speed(max +100).

    I really don't like the big skill bonuses though. Having like +30 or +50 in a skill is way too much. The game already has too many skill points. It's annoying as a DM to have to make every single wall in the world a phased enchanted guardian repelling wall of Ill Omen and Fear and Flame, just so every character does not climb every wall like a monkey.

    But big pluses don't help much vs ''cool effects''. Sure +100 to climb is cool, but it can only be used to climb walls.

    Wholeness of Body (Su) Eh, it will never be enough if you ''fight, heal and repeat''.

    Abundant Step (Su) Rewrite! This is a horrible example of getting an ability far too late.

    I like:

    Abundant Hop(Su) At 3rd level the monk gets the ability to make short dimensional steps as per the spell, Dimensional Hop, as a swift action, once a day for every level. Caster level equals the monks level.

    This is so nice, and lets the monk 'hop' all over the battle field. And it has the nice limit of 5 feet per two levels. So a 6th level monk can only hop 15 feet, six times a day.....but 15 feet is huge in combat. Now the ''swift action'' is over powered to some....but I don't think so. You can nerf it to ''move action'' if you feel the need too.

    Abundant Step (Su) At 7th level the monk can make short dimensional steps as per the spell Dimensional Step, as part of any move action, once a day for every other level . Caster level equals monk level.

    This is nice as it's 'teleport' distance equal to the monks base speed. So that is 50 feet for a 10th level monk.

    Abundant Jump At 11th level, as Dimensional Door, standard action, once a day per three levels.

    Abundant Travel At 15th level, Teleport, full round action, once a day per five levels.

    All the Dimension movement does over lap, but I like that. I also like giving monks teleport as it fits with my ''Master Kane wandering the world monk style''

    (Though my Houserules also change all teleport spells too)

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    Regarding flurry fixes: give them full BAB, then let them make their extra flurry attacks as part of a standard-action attack. Before modifiers from ability scores and such, a 6th-level monk's attack-action flurry would be at +5/+5 and the full-attack flurry would be at +5/+5/+0. A 20th-level monk's attack-action flurry would be at +20/+20/+20 and the full-attack flurry would be at +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5.
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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I actually like Poolol's version better-- the big bonuses (+30 at 9th level?) help make the movement skills interesting by letting you pull off impossible/epic stunts.
    Yes, but that +30 at 9th will be for just a single skill... and of course no movement increase.
    My proposal covers all 6 of them, and if +1 per odd level seems too little, then +1 per level should do it.
    Between ranks, synergy, ability bonus, skill feats, skill tricks and class bonuses, that should be more than enough to make nearly any check an auto-success by 6th level. That +30 at 9th would hardly make any difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Be careful about when you grant abilities like that. Getting Wis to attack and damage at 6th level is great if you start at 6th, but makes for 5 levels of pain if you start at 1st.
    I don't get how Wis to Att & Dmg at 1st level is a pain (not that I was proposing that, but still I wonder)...... unless you mean pain to the DM (which I'd agree).

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I don't get how Wis to Att & Dmg at 1st level is a pain (not that I was proposing that, but still I wonder)...... unless you mean pain to the DM (which I'd agree).
    What he means is, it's five levels of waiting until you're actually effective.
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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    What he means is, it's five levels of waiting until you're actually effective.
    Ok, I didn't say it's a perfect fix, but it's a start.

    If applied starting at 1st level, then at the very least, it should be capped by the monk's level, so as to not walk all over other melees.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Ok, I didn't say it's a perfect fix, but it's a start.

    If applied starting at 1st level, then at the very least, it should be capped by the monk's level, so as to not walk all over other melees.
    And to keep it from being a dip class for battle Clerics.
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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Ok, I didn't say it's a perfect fix, but it's a start.

    If applied starting at 1st level, then at the very least, it should be capped by the monk's level, so as to not walk all over other melees.
    It's tricky. If you give "Wis instead of Strength" at first level, it makes the class super dip-friendly, but means that players don't have to waste a decent score on Strength. If you give it at, oh, fifth, then it means that the player either needs to put a decent score into an Ability that will quickly become meaningless, or spend the first part of his career as a melee character utterly unable to hit or damage things.

    In the end, I'd come down on the side of playability, rather than balance, and give the ability at first or second level. You might include a rider like "as long as you have more monk levels than any other," but you might also just say the hell with it and let it be dip-able. Better that the character functions from the start than to cripple them for a few levels in the name of a "balance" that doesn't really exist in 3.5 to begin with.
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    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: A few small changes to the Monk (PEACH)

    What not letting them use Wis to melee attacks from 1st level and then Wis to damage from 5th-6th level? That way the character should still be able to punch things at lower levels, even though he'll have to wait to see his damage output increase
    Last edited by CinuzIta; 2015-01-04 at 01:55 PM.

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