How do I deal with a Chaotic Evil party member?

[Othniel]

A bit of a background might be in order. I originally posted a while back on how to keep my Paladin on the straight-and-narrow with a couple neutral characters in the party trying to make me fall. See the spoiler below for the link if you want to read the original post. I have a new issue: The Barbarian has somehow slipped from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Evil when I wasn't looking, and I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do now with my Lawful Good Paladin.

Here's what happened: The party agreed to aid the town in dispatching some bandits who were living in a nearby fort, and preying upon the townsfolk. We finished clearing the fort and arrived back in town at night. The Ninja (who got blinded by a caster in the fort and was not yet healed because none of our party has any ability to remove blindness yet) and my Paladin went back to the inn to rest and find a healer in the morning. The Barbarian had other plans. He wanted to be paid NOW, so he intimidated the innkeeper to find out where the Mayor lived, and went to pay a visit. This is where things turned south (for the Barbarian).

Being rather impulsive, he threatened one of the guards at the Mayor's house, and when the guard wouldn't let him in to see the Mayor (it being rather late at night), he killed the guard. That keyed off a fight between the Barbarian and 5-6 guardsmen, in which the guardsmen were all murdered. The Barbarian turned his attention toward breaking down first the gate to the Mayor's yard, and then his house door so he could get inside to demand payment. Meanwhile, my Paladin arrives on the scene, and (having been suspicious of the Barbarian in the first place) Detects Evil on him. Barbarian comes up as Evil, and putting two-and-two together, my Paladin comes to the conclusion that the Barbarian has jumped into the deep end of the Evil pool. After demands that the Barbarian stand down fall upon deaf ears, my Paladin decides that he has to stop the Barbarian before he murders someone else. While the Barbarian in his fit of rage keeps attacking the door (and taking arrows from town guards), my Paladin succeeds in damaging him enough to knock him unconscious. The Barbarian is put in jail, whereupon the Ninja (having by now been cured of his blindness) decides to break him out. He narrowly fails (after killing a couple guards), and is caught and also jailed by the authorities. We are now slated to have a trial for both the Barbarian and Ninja next session, and the DM has hinted that punishment will probably be exile, which I personally feel is letting them get away with murder, not that a random adventuring Paladin's opinion counts for anything.

What is a Paladin, who wants to uphold the law, to do? My Paladin cannot, in good conscience, continue to adventure with these two characters, and I was thinking about retiring him (after only 3 sessions, unfortunately) to stay in the town and train new town guardsmen (feeling bad about how his party members behaved), and also to avoid having a Lawful Good character traveling with a Chaotic Evil character. I may pick him up later, if my fellow players eventually change characters to something less annoyingly evil. The problem is that I like playing good-aligned characters, and I might have a hard time with a party member who likes to play a Barbarian who is happy to kill random guards and townsfolk when they inconvenience him. It is also my personal opinion that a Ninja who kills town guards in order to spring his murdering companion out of jail has ceased to be Chaotic Neutral and slipped into Chaotic Evil, although I suppose that's up for debate. Obviously, there is no problem mechanically with a new, less LG character traveling with a CE party member, but for Roleplay reasons, I feel like I'm kind of stuck. I'm the newest player in the group, and I don't want to rock the boat and cause discord between the players, but I need some advice here. The Ninja player is thinking about rolling a new character, but the Barbarian player flat out said that his character isn't leaving, so I have to either A) make a new character, or B) find some way for the Paladin to stay in the group. If I make a new character, or bring back a character I played previously, how do I maintain a working adventuring relationship with Chaotic Evil-leaning party members when I want to play a Good, or at least Neutral, character? I should also mention that these players are my friends and acquaintances, so I obviously don't want to cause any strife between us outside of the game (as friendships are far more important than getting one's own way in a game).

Spoiler: Link

Show

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ral-characters

[Beta Centauri]

An old, old problem, caused as always by the presence of a paladin.

Whatever you do, don't deal with it in-game. Talk to the player and the group. Lay out what you laid out here. You want to be a paladin, you don't (I assume) want to fall - despite that being one of the top three reasons for a paladin even to exist in a narrative - and you don't want (I assume) to have to police the other players. If the players are receptive to your wants, they'll help find a way to make it happen. If they're not, then there's not much you can do, except to play a different character, or leave the game.

[Othniel]

It seems to me that such a problem can exist without a Paladin in the group. If you have a CE character causing strife by murdering town guards, and another member of the party respects the law (and doesn't appreciate murdering people in cold blood), you have a problem whether there is a Paladin or not.

[Honest Tiefling]

Why isn't the Barbarian leaving? Does the player enjoy his character too much, or does he just not care about other's opinions? And it could very well be a case that their desires and your own are not compatible, sadly.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I would be willing to wager that your paladin is next on the barbarian's hit list. I think you should be prepared to retire your paladin immediately, if you're really worried about hard feelings amongst the players.

The barbarian has sank all the way to Chaotic Stupid. No chance he picked up a cursed alignment item I take it?

[Tarlek Flamehai]

An old, old problem, caused as always by the presence of a paladin.

Whatever you do, don't deal with it in-game. Talk to the player and the group. Lay out what you laid out here. You want to be a paladin, you don't (I assume) want to fall - despite that being one of the top three reasons for a paladin even to exist in a narrative - and you don't want (I assume) to have to police the other players. If the players are receptive to your wants, they'll help find a way to make it happen. If they're not, then there's not much you can do, except to play a different character, or leave the game.

I've played many games with someone else being a paladin. The only time I've seen this old, old problem it was always caused by the player with the evil character.

[Honest Tiefling]

I've been on both sides, seen Stupid Evil and Lawful Stupid. The problem isn't the class or alignment, it is the fact that there's a miscommunication or someone is unwilling to compromise for the enjoyment of all.

[Beta Centauri]

It seems to me that such a problem can exist without a Paladin in the group. If you have a CE character causing strife by murdering town guards, and another member of the party respects the law (and doesn't appreciate murdering people in cold blood), you have a problem whether there is a Paladin or not.

The difference is that in most editions Paladins have rules pertaining to this exact situation. If the paladin doesn't do something, they stop being a paladin. If the paladin DOES do something, they're at odds with members of the party.

If it's just any old class, then it's the players deciding that they have to act a certain way, and the players causing the problem. Unless the GM has house rules about alignment, then it's on the GM.

In any case, this needs to be handled outside of the game. It's very likely that not everyone is interested in playing the game the same way, and this should be dealt with.

[Beta Centauri]

I've played many games with someone else being a paladin. The only time I've seen this old, old problem it was always caused by the player with the evil character.

Nope. The evil player trigger's the paladin's rules, but its the rules for the paladin that are to blame. No one should be expected to adhere to rules for characters that aren't theirs, but that's what the rules for the paladin require: no one can be evil around the paladin, basically. That removes the free choice of the other players.

That's best case. The paladin is also a big, dorky target that is fun to mess with. It's an attractive nuisance, and if someone picks it in a mixed group then they're asking for situations like this.

[Othniel]

I would be willing to wager that your paladin is next on the barbarian's hit list. I think you should be prepared to retire your paladin immediately, if you're really worried about hard feelings amongst the players.

The barbarian has sank all the way to Chaotic Stupid. No chance he picked up a cursed alignment item I take it?

No, there is no cursed alignment item. While I am really enjoying the Paladin (lancer build) class (and I like playing a good guy), my main trouble is just adventuring with a character like the CE Barbarian. Even if I reroll to a more Neutral alignment character, having a character in the group who is willing to kill town guards on a whim is kind of annoying. Playing a Paladin is not really my issue here. Playing any kind of character who isn't OK with murder is. If the Barbarian stays in the group, how do I RP a neutral or good character who can stay in a group with such a person?

[Beta Centauri]

If the Barbarian stays in the group, how do I RP a neutral or good character who can stay in a group with such a person?

I'm not sure, but the first thing you would want to do is take "police and punish that character" off the table and go from there.

Talk to the player. You two might not be compatible. It happens.

[gom jabbarwocky]

Speaking as someone who has been in a practically identical situation, there are basically only two solutions to this problem that I have personally tried. The first is out-of-game, and best case, you work with the other players try and brainstorm a way that everyone can have fun together. More likely, you'll be told to suck it up - that's what I was told.

At this point, you can either be mature about this and bow out of the game, or, you can be a vindictive little bastard like I was, and make Mr. New PC a completely irredeemable CE monster. You know the type - kicks old ladies down stairs, lights the wizard's cat familiar on fire, uses pickpocket to drop cursed magical items in other PC's loot piles, and drops a blade barrier on the fighter when he can't cough up the gold pieces for a healing spell (hey, you're E, you can't afford to cast those for free! They call it extortion, you call it good business sense.) When the other players complain, drink up their tears as they choke on their own medicine. Basically, if I can't have fun playing this game, no one will.

No, I'm not still bitter.

[Beta Centauri]

Basically, if I can't have fun playing this game, no one will.

An all too common outcome. In fact, maybe that's what the player of the evil character already decided to do. Only way to find out is to talk to them.

[cobaltstarfire]

Even if I reroll to a more Neutral alignment character, having a character in the group who is willing to kill town guards on a whim is kind of annoying. Playing a Paladin is not really my issue here. Playing any kind of character who isn't OK with murder is. If the Barbarian stays in the group, how do I RP a neutral or good character who can stay in a group with such a person?

I think you should be asking that of your table more, maybe you and that other character can put together a way his and yours interact and such. That or if you're that uncomfortable and annoyed and can't work anything out you should just find a new table.

[Otomodachi]

Of course I'm in agreement that you need to talk this out OUT of character.

What I'd probably try to propose, in your shows, in this order...

1) Your paladin will try to challenge the barbarian to an unarmed fight, trial by combat, to decide who is the LEADER. If the barbarian character has any dignity or pride whatsoever, he'll abide by it... if your paladin wins, the barbarian has to listen and start reforming. If the paladin loses, he falls and I'd suggest becomes an NPC. I know this has a risk of your character changing in a way you dislike, but... consider, the barbarian might be really excited about where HIS character is going. It could end up sort of like Roy and Belkar in the comic, and *I* could find a lot of fun in playing a barbarian being reformed by a paladin, as long as everybody acted like adults.

2) Paladin and barbarian duel to the death.

3) Flip a coin to see who gets hit by a stray meteor. ;)

Remember- fighting evil DOES NOT have to mean SLAYING evil! Not saying you didn't already know that, though.

[Othniel]

I think you should be asking that of your table more, maybe you and that other character can put together a way his and yours interact and such. That or if you're that uncomfortable and annoyed and can't work anything out you should just find a new table.

I don't think I'll be finding a new table, as I prefer to game with people I know well, at least in person. (I am curious about how people play-by-post though, so I may check that out eventually.) I sent a message to our DM to get his take on the situation. I don't think he was entirely satisfied with the outcome of our last session either, so I wanted to let him know my concerns, and see what he says. I'll talk to the Barbarian player (and the Ninja player, who is my best friend) before I decide anything, and try to work it out. I think what bothers me most about his character is the irrational behavior (Stupid Evil, if you will). It reminds me of playing games like Knights of the Old Republic, where to be Dark Side, you essentially had to play a Stupid Evil character (murdering for the fun of it and such).

What I'd probably try to propose, in your shows, in this order...

Naw, the Barbarian would wipe the ground with my Paladin. The only reason I beat him before was that he was attacking a door instead of my character. Also, I'd rather keep the character alive in case I want to reuse him later. It would be especially amusing some day if I ever DM the group, and make him a quest-giver.

make Mr. New PC a completely irredeemable CE monster

Somehow, I don't think that'll go over all that well, although it does give me an idea. I could reroll my Bard* (my previous character) to a Skald, and chronicle the Barbarian's deeds everywhere we go, only to recount them in towns and villages in epic manner. Not to out-evil him, but to embellish the stories about him. Killing 5 guards on a whim because he wanted to be paid just turned into fighting off the entire town guard because the Mayor looked at him funny. Basically, the Skald's motive is that he loves a great story, and good stories sometimes need embellishing in order to make them great.

*The Bard was a fun character, but unfortunately, at the time we were a party of A) The Ninja, B) A Gunslinger, and C) My Bard. We were kind of a squishy group, so both the Gunslinger and myself rerolled to a Barbarian and Paladin respectively. As I said above, I was under the impression that the Barbarian was going to be Chaotic Neutral, rather than Chaotic Evil when I made the Paladin. Alas that the Barbarian fell. :P In retrospect, it may have been a better idea for only ONE of us to reroll to either a Barbarian OR Paladin, and leave the rest of the party as it was. If I remake the Bard to a Skald, that may fix the issue somewhat (even if I don't go the "recount his evil deeds and make them more impressive" route). Besides, we miss having some arcane spell casting.

[Otomodachi]

I could reroll my Bard* (my previous character) to a Skald, and chronicle the Barbarian's deeds everywhere we go, only to recount them in towns and villages in epic manner. Not to out-evil him, but to embellish the stories about him. Killing 5 guards on a whim because he wanted to be paid just turned into fighting off the entire town guard because the Mayor looked at him funny. Basically, the Skald's motive is that he loves a great story, and good stories sometimes need embellishing in order to make them great.
.

Personally, I think this is a FANTASTIC idea.

[Honest Tiefling]

Question is, are you doing this to annoy him OoCly, or because the bard would be a fun character and you think the two of you would enjoy the interaction?

[Othniel]

Question is, are you doing this to annoy him OoCly, or because the bard would be a fun character and you think the two of you would enjoy the interaction?

The latter. I honestly don't think he'd be annoyed by it, but would probably enjoy it, and it seems that Barbarians and Skalds would have good synergy together. Doesn't mean I wouldn't tweak him here or there with storytelling though. ;)

[Honest Tiefling]

Then go ahead with the plan. Sorry to assume, but sometimes people get upset and make bad decisions. Sorry to hear that the preferences don't match up, but I'd like to hear how the Barbarian and Skald get along.

[Othniel]

Then go ahead with the plan. Sorry to assume, but sometimes people get upset and make bad decisions. Sorry to hear that the preferences don't match up, but I'd like to hear how the Barbarian and Skald get along.

Believe me, I understand. I prefer peaceful resolution to problems in life whenever possible.

[icefractal]

It seems to me that such a problem can exist without a Paladin in the group. If you have a CE character causing strife by murdering town guards, and another member of the party respects the law (and doesn't appreciate murdering people in cold blood), you have a problem whether there is a Paladin or not.

This. I think every non-Evil character I've played would either:
A) Ditch this guy at the nearest opportunity.
B) Kill him myself.

And as for the evil ones - a couple would be fine with his actions. The rest would either be horrified (the ones who don't think of themselves as evil), think he's drawing too much attention to the group, and/or feel he'd serve better as an undead minion.

"Crazy berserker who kills anyone he feels like, including nominal allies" is about as extreme a concept as "pacifist who expects the rest of the party to follow suit". If it works at all, it's because the rest of the players decided to specifically make characters that are ok with it.

[goto124]

What to do about the Barbarian who's now in jail for killing guards? Is a backtrack to pre-guard-killing in order?

[Othniel]

What to do about the Barbarian who's now in jail for killing guards? Is a backtrack to pre-guard-killing in order?

He and the Ninja are going on trial in the town next session. The DM insinuated that they wouldn't be either A) Executed, nor B) Imprisoned as possible punishments. Exile seems likely (to my mind, that isn't much of a punishment for multiple counts of murder), but the DM may come up with something else interesting.

[goto124]

Is it played play-by-post, on an Internet Relay Chat, or in RL? I was wondering why things had escalated so quickly.

He and the Ninja are going on trial in the town next session. The DM insinuated that they wouldn't be either A) Executed, nor B) Imprisoned as possible punishments. Exile seems likely (to my mind, that isn't much of a punishment for multiple counts of murder), but the DM may come up with something else interesting.

And your paladin won't fall.

How would exile affect gameplay for those 2
people and the rest of the team? Would be difficult if the party blames them whenever they run into a roadblock due to exile. The party might have to move far, far away from the place afterwards.

Any plans to turn the Barbarian back to Neutral?

[Othniel]

Is it played play-by-post, on an Internet Relay Chat, or in RL? I was wondering why things had escalated so quickly.



And your paladin won't fall.

How would exile affect gameplay for those 2
people and the rest of the team? Would be difficult if the party blames them whenever they run into a roadblock due to exile. The party might have to move far, far away from the place afterwards.

Any plans to turn the Barbarian back to Neutral?

It's RL play, and there are three regulars (the Ninja, Barbarian, and myself) as well as 3 others who make it whenever they can (Rogue, Druid, and Magus), and it's been at least 3 sessions since there were more than the three of us regulars. There was also a summoner who quit playing a few sessions ago to run Shadowrun. The last was too bad because he was playing a Lawful Good character as a sort of sheriff-type. My Paladin would've got along well with him. The whole episode from Barbarian and Paladin meeting in the group up to this point has happened over three sessions, with the last session being where the Barbarian and Ninja killed guards and ended up in jail. Even if I wanted to turn the Barbarian back to neutral, I doubt the player would go for that. I think he enjoys what he's doing far too much.

[Tengu_temp]

And this is why things like "let's not play evil characters who kill NPCs that look at them funny" should be agreed on beforehand and characters shouldn't be made in a vacuum.

Personally? In this situation I'd kill the barbarian, and the ninja. This is a case where it's either them or me, and I have no desire to play in a party that's okay with murdering innocents.

[Frenth Alunril]

Take your dm aside, explain this to him, "I want to gather all the family members of the town guards killed, and promise them that they will have justice. I want to hire a group of bards to write an outlaw ballad of evil barbarians and ninjas, make a mockery of justice, because I know they are going to get of the hook, and when the trial happens every day, I will pay for the bards to perform their show every night, to disgrace the people who are going to let the barbarian and ninja off with simple banishment. Then, if they are let of with banishment, as they are lead out of town, I want to get on a soapbox, with the angry crowd of townsfolk I've ginned up behind me, and call for justice, call for those corrupt forces to be removed from office, call for a bounty on the heads of the barbarian and ninja, and if I don't become the new mayor of town, then the new sheriff or judge! I will gladly hand in my paladin as an npc, as long as you allow me a say in how the justice system is run in this town here after."

Then roll up an evil monk or something, and job them on the run.

[BWR]

Fix this OOC. Things rarely get better if handled IC only.

Don't listen to people claiming that this is somehow the paladin's fault - that is utter BS from any sensible point of view. This is entirely a player problem. Big question: did you bring the paladin in the group before or after the barbarian? If you came in first you have a strong case for getting the barbarian to mend his ways or have to retire. Why should your character and your fun as a player suffer because someone else has to go and be a ****?
Conversely, if the barbarian was there first and you brought in a paladin, well, make sure characters and classes you bring in to an existing group are going to work with what's there (an LG person with a bunch of morally neutral and chaotic people is a risky idea). If there is an irreconcilable conflict and the other PC was there first, you should retire your character.
If they were both brought in at the same time, then you should get in the habit of making sure characters will be able to work together before the game starts, and your only recourse now is to settle it OOC.

[lytokk]

What appears to be going on here is two different playstyles. The barbarian and ninja appeared to want to play an anything goes game, where you as a paladin wanted to be an upstanding good guy. As has been said, this really needs to be handled OOC, with a meeting with the DM regarding where he planned on the game going, and where all the players wanted to go. Granted, this is one of those things that should have been decided long before anyone rolled up a character.

If the DM doesn't really have an opinion as to the nature of the game, then it comes down to the rest of the players. You don't want to reroll, the barbarian doesn't want to reroll, but the ninja is willing to. It really comes down to him as the deciding vote on what the alignment of the party should be. If he rolls evil, then you're going to have to change. If he goes good, the barbarian has to change. But this should all be handled outside of the game, between the players and not the characters.