OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread

[happycrow]

Also, Bozzok knows they're headed to the Northern Lands. Gnometown may just be the obvious port-of-call for people doing that travel.

[Liliet]

Okay, I was planning to respond to all biphobic bs in this thread individually, but nah.

1. I will accept your need for more proof Haley is bi when you present me evidence in the comic that suggests she is not. You might also want to find some proof that V isn't aro ace, Roy isn't pan, Durkon isn't greyromantic bisexual, and Belkar isn't aromantic heterosexual, while you are at it, because I don't remember any. Oh, and you won't be able to find any proof V isn't agender, because ve actually is.

2. Haley's line about having kissed a girl in that context is proof enough that queerphobia exists in OotSverse in some form. Maybe it's specific to one religion, maybe it's just a Thieves' Guild thing, maybe it was only Haley's father personal problem, but fact is, it exists and Haley internalized some of it.

3. I haven't first-hand witnessed what bi erasure looks like and how straight-up dumb it is before either. Ew.

Also, I agree that Bandana's question about an ex probably came from the place of personal experience. That, or she thought it a funny joke. Either one, or both.

[The Giant]

Yes, Latent bisexuality means Haley has not yet explored her bisexuality (except, apparently, for some kissing, which honestly doesn't mean much). But that does not mean she is not bisexual! She has literally stated outright she IS bisexual, she actually has a literal personification of bisexuality in her head.

(Snip)

Haley is bisexual. We know this. It is a fact, it is canon. She is attracted to men and women, she just hasn't told anyone she is attracted to women, or that she experimented with kissing girls when she was younger. (just like she hasn't told anyone anything else about herself, either.) But "not acting on your sexuality" does not mean "not having your sexuality". So she is attracted to women, and that's why she said "I have better taste in girls than this". She means, IF she would have ever dated a girl, then they would have been better than Crystal, which honestly doesn't say much.

I've heard about bisexual erasure from my bisexual friends, but never really understood how bad it was until I saw someone state outright they were bisexual and see people STILL denying it. Ouch.

Yes to all of this.

"Latent" means simply that Haley has not fully explored that aspect of her sexuality, and that there's not much opportunity to do so now that she has fallen in love with Elan (and he happens to be a man). It does not mean that aspect of sexuality doesn't exist, or that she's not attracted to women, or that she's not attracted to women anymore. It doesn't even mean she hasn't fooled around with girls, just that there are lines that have not been crossed that—in her mind—would need to be crossed in order for her to feel OK calling herself "openly bisexual." I am not going to detail what those lines are because they're not important and would only cause more pointless arguments. I also don't think it would be in very good taste for me to spend time inventing the details of my female main character's previous sex life just to satisfy the curiosity of forum-goers.

So, because no one can ever accept anything that is heavily implied or alluded to in the comic and only me stating it outright here on the message board ever seems to matter: Haley is bisexual. Quick, run off to the index thread to catalog it for academic posterity!

As to why she is OK talking about it with Bandana: 1.) Bandana's own queerness makes it a non-issue, 2.) She is actively trying to be better about keeping secrets for the sake of secrecy, and 3.) Sometimes, when you're trying to change, it's actually easier to do so with someone you just met than someone who has known you for a long time. The person who knows you will always be expecting the old you, while the new person accepts what you present them as who you are until shown otherwise.

[Bitzer]

This is a great comic; and despite having been in the Revenant camp myself, I'm glad we can settle the golem/undead debate. As for Haley's sexuality, the Giant has provided pretty ironclad evidence about Haley being attracted to women in the past. Assuming she is speaking fact to Bandanna, however, she does not feel that attraction at this time. This conclusion comes from her use of the past tense when speaking of her taste in women. Now, it is entirely possible that Haley is lying to herself (because when has that ever happened), but I am convinced that at this point she only feels attraction towards Elan.

EDIT:: Ninja'd by the Giant himself.

[Liliet]

Yes to all of this.

"Latent" means simply that Haley has not fully explored that aspect of her sexuality, and that there's not much opportunity to do so now that she has fallen in love with Elan (and he happens to be a man). It does not mean that aspect of sexuality doesn't exist, or that she's not attracted to women, or that she's not attracted to women anymore. It doesn't even mean she hasn't fooled around with girls, just that there are lines that have not been crossed that—in her mind—would need to be crossed in order for her to feel OK calling herself "openly bisexual." I am not going to detail what those lines are because they're not important and would only cause more pointless arguments. I also don't think it would be in very good taste for me to spend time inventing the details of my female main character's previous sex life just to satisfy the curiosity of forum-goers.

So, because no one can ever accept anything that is heavily implied or alluded to in the comic and only me stating it outright here on the message board ever seems to matter: Haley is bisexual. Quick, run off to the index thread to catalog it for academic posterity!

As to why she is OK talking about it with Bandana: 1.) Bandana's own queerness makes it a non-issue, 2.) She is actively trying to be better about keeping secrets for the sake of secrecy, and 3.) Sometimes, when you're trying to change, it's actually easier to do so with someone you just met than someone who has known you for a long time. The person who knows you will always be expecting the old you, while the new person accepts what you present them as who you are until shown otherwise.

Amen to this.

[goodpeople25]

Yes to all of this.

"Latent" means simply that Haley has not fully explored that aspect of her sexuality, and that there's not much opportunity to do so now that she has fallen in love with Elan (and he happens to be a man). It does not mean that aspect of sexuality doesn't exist, or that she's not attracted to women, or that she's not attracted to women anymore. It doesn't even mean she hasn't fooled around with girls, just that there are lines that have not been crossed that—in her mind—would need to be crossed in order for her to feel OK calling herself "openly bisexual." I am not going to detail what those lines are because they're not important and would only cause more pointless arguments. I also don't think it would be in very good taste for me to spend time inventing the details of my female main character's previous sex life just to satisfy the curiosity of forum-goers.

So, because no one can ever accept anything that is heavily implied or alluded to in the comic and only me stating it outright here on the message board ever seems to matter: Haley is bisexual. Quick, run off to the index thread to catalog it for academic posterity!

As to why she is OK talking about it with Bandana: 1.) Bandana's own queerness makes it a non-issue, 2.) She is actively trying to be better about keeping secrets for the sake of secrecy, and 3.) Sometimes, when you're trying to change, it's actually easier to do so with someone you just met than someone who has known you for a long time. The person who knows you will always be expecting the old you, while the new person accepts what you present them as who you are until shown otherwise.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Liliet]

This is a great comic; and despite having been in the Revenant camp myself, I'm glad we can settle the golem/undead debate. As for Haley's sexuality, the Giant has provided pretty ironclad evidence about Haley being attracted to women in the past. Assuming she is speaking fact to Bandanna, however, she does not feel that attraction at this time. This conclusion comes from her use of the past tense when speaking of her taste in women. Now, it is entirely possible that Haley is lying to herself (because when has that ever happened), but I am convinced that at this point she only feels attraction towards Elan.

EDIT:: Ninja'd by the Giant himself.

I think the past tense is just because she can't possibly be attracted to Crystal now and is referencing the time when she was alive and so it was a possibility.

[happycrow]

Liliet: don't understand the phobic comment. Haley is clearly bi, as established in-comic and reiterated by forum statement by Giant. Similarly, Qarr refers to V as a "she" and V's mate has the lego-brick male bottom (which is artistically consistent in artwork depicting elves, c.f. scenes with the Resistance). To me that's enough to say "Qarr could care less what kind of plumbing V has, but is able to perceive it accurately." I could easily be wrong -- I usually am. Is it important? Well, only if it's important to the story. So far, outside of some laughs at Belkar's expense, I'd have to say "no, not particularly." And the laughs at Belkar's expense seem to me to be precisely because he's such an immature doofus that to him it's a burning issue. As I see it the only real importance of the Haley situation is "oh look, character growth" and that she appears to have a pretty good friendship with Bandana. Could care less about any of the rest of it, because so far as I can tell, none of it has any relevance to the story.

Sorry if I irked you -- I just don't see why gender questions always have to be such an issue.

Bitzer: I picked revenant too, but I'm never, ever right about these things. My dramatic instincts and those of the Giant are different, which is part of why it's such fun to read these puppies.

[The Giant]

I think the past tense is just because she can't possibly be attracted to Crystal now and is referencing the time when she was alive and so it was a possibility.

The past tense was simply in response to the fact that she had previously referenced Crystal as being "from her past." Most people do not have the same exact taste in romantic partners in their mid-20's that they had as a teenager, so Haley was specifically saying, "Even as a teenager, I had better taste." It has nothing to do with her orientation.

[Bulldog Psion]

Also, Bozzok knows they're headed to the Northern Lands. Gnometown may just be the obvious port-of-call for people doing that travel.

I've been arguing that for a long time. Nice to see that someone else concurs it may be the case.

I mean, if you receive information that someone is transiting through the Netherlands, guessing that they're going to be at Schiphol Airport at some point is a logical inference. (To use a somewhat inexact, but appropriate, real-world simile, and one that I have personal experience with.)

[Keltest]

I've been arguing that for a long time. Nice to see that someone else concurs it may be the case.

I mean, if you receive information that someone is transiting through the Netherlands, guessing that they're going to be at Schiphol Airport at some point is a logical inference. (To use a somewhat inexact, but appropriate, real-world simile, and one that I have personal experience with.)

Certainly if youre traveling by airship rather than water ship, youre going to need to use a more specialized port for maintenance and refueling, even without the massive god-storm.

[Crusher]

3.) Sometimes, when you're trying to change, it's actually easier to do so with someone you just met than someone who has known you for a long time. The person who knows you will always be expecting the old you, while the new person accepts what you present them as who you are until shown otherwise.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Since Elan's out cold, Haley's talking to a slightly different audience than if it was the 3 of them chatting. Not that keeping secrets from your bf/gf is something you want to make a habit of, but talking casually about your romantic past in front of them (especially with other people around) can come across as awkward/rude in general.

[Liliet]

Liliet: don't understand the phobic comment. Haley is clearly bi, as established in-comic and reiterated by forum statement by Giant. Similarly, Qarr refers to V as a "she" and V's mate has the lego-brick male bottom (which is artistically consistent in artwork depicting elves, c.f. scenes with the Resistance). To me that's enough to say "Qarr could care less what kind of plumbing V has, but is able to perceive it accurately." I could easily be wrong -- I usually am. Is it important? Well, only if it's important to the story. So far, outside of some laughs at Belkar's expense, I'd have to say "no, not particularly." And the laughs at Belkar's expense seem to me to be precisely because he's such an immature doofus that to him it's a burning issue. As I see it the only real importance of the Haley situation is "oh look, character growth" and that she appears to have a pretty good friendship with Bandana. Could care less about any of the rest of it, because so far as I can tell, none of it has any relevance to the story.

Sorry if I irked you -- I just don't see why gender questions always have to be such an issue.

In unequal power dynamics, it's common for one with more power to not understand why it's always such an issue for the one with less.

Representation is very important for MOGAI people. If you are curious about why, PM me. It's getting off-topic.

(also, the fiends don't know V's biological sex either, and also apparently are not aware what non-binary is and what pronouns they could use without desperate anatomical guessing. If Qarr knew, he'd have told them)

Certainly if youre traveling by airship rather than water ship, youre going to need to use a more specialized port for maintenance and refueling, even without the massive god-storm.

Yeah. I don't think "how they were found" is any sort of a big question. OotS are kind of noticable, what with their near-epic levels and all.

The question is, what is going to be made of this encounter? Giant doesn't show fights just for the sake of fights...

[FallenFallcrest]

Hey Rich, sorry for all of the confusion you have had to deal with this particular strip. It would seem that a formal lesson in Grammar, definitions, and reading comprehension is in order. But I do have to say for this one that you really went all out on the artwork. It is an excellent battle scene that takes the stick figure artwork to an extreme. The dialogue between Crystal and Haley is a bit awkward; I guess it is supposed to be since Crystal is sort of undead (flesh construct with a soul/mind or whatever) and they are in the middle of battle. I just wish Haley could get rid of those annoying people in her past because the Theives Guild is not much of a threat, but they have the resources to always be a nuisance if they wanted to be. Hopefully sending agents across the world after one person will prove too expensive and they will give up. Or some other solution, which I am sure will be quite clever. Until then.

[Stella]

But to get this Golem wouldn't Bozzok have to raise Grubwiggler, thus requiring the means of raising someone *and then* the means of making a golem?

Grubwiggler's golem apparatus was based on !science!, he just hooked up the body and waited for a storm. Or a lightning burst from a convenient outsider. Anyone who watched him operate it, such as his faux-hunchedbacked minion, could have created the Crystal golem.

[Inevitability]

Hm... Awakened Flesh Golem? Though that would imply the Thieves' Guild has access to 9th-level spells...

[UristMcRandom]

Grubwiggler's golem apparatus was based on !science!, he just hooked up the body and waited for a storm. Or a lightning burst from a convenient outsider. Anyone who watched him operate it, such as his faux-hunchedbacked minion, could have created the Crystal golem.

Not true, actually, he makes mention of casting spells a couple of times times (strips 575, panel 5 and 576, panel 4), not to mention his process requires at least eleven secret herbs and reagents (also 576, panel 4). It's possible that Giro (the assistant) knows what goes in these formulas, but unless he's got that knowledge (or a sample of one of the formulas), and enough levels in whatever spellcasting class Grubwiggler uses to cast the appropriate spells? We'd need Grubwiggler himself to operate it.

[t209]

So anyone what skills does Flesh Golem have, other than Crystal's similarity to the Frankenstein's novel version (super human and ran fast thought the latter had more intelligence).

[Keltest]

So anyone what skills does Flesh Golem have, other than Crystal's similarity to the Frankenstein's novel version (super human and ran fast thought the latter had more intelligence).

Off the top of my head, theyre healed by electricity, are strong and durable, and have all the benefits of being mindless constructs. Crystal though may not get all of those, as she has something resembling a mind. Theyre also immune to magic.

[Stella]

Yes to all of this. [...] Haley is bisexual. [And has always been bisexual.]

If it's "forced" now, that's only because I failed to include any obviously gay characters for 900+ strips and that is so completely uncool that I need to fix it NOW, not later.

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

[Bulldog Psion]

Hm... Awakened Flesh Golem? Though that would imply the Thieves' Guild has access to 9th-level spells...

I could almost swear I'd come across something Frankenstein-like in one of the Monster Manuals, or perhaps Dragon magazine. It's right on the tip of my tongue ...

[Gnoman]

2.) She is actively trying to be better about keeping secrets for the sake of secrecy

This is the only reason I really found the line important, as it shows just how far along Haley's gone with one of her more important character arcs.

[Snails]

But yes, a golem with DR and immunity to sneak attack is very effective against a rogue. Even Roy's sword, which is starmetal, not adamant, should suffer the DR.

It is quite possible that Starmetal can defeat Adamant DR. The fact Roy's sword could destroy Girard's Gate is a possible hint.

[Giggling Ghast]

My guess of "cadaver golem" is looking more and more likely.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...051007a&page=6

Granted, she's not Large size, but Crystal is a relatively new golem that probably hasn't had time to add any body parts and some allowances can be made given the medium.

[Canisius]

This has to be a homebrew of some kind. As to why she was turned into a flesh golem, I offer two speculations:

1) Raise dead and/or resurrection is a lot less commonly available than we might think. It took a whole book to get Roy raised, which would not have happened if every town had a resurrection-while-u-wait drivethrough.

2) It may be cheaper to make a flesh golem than it is to pay the diamonds for raise dead, plus flesh golem Crystal is a more dangerous enemy than living Crystal was, especially if Bozzak has a deal with whomever is running the show now that Grubbwiggler is dead ..

<snip>

Gah! Someone in the discussion thread from the previous comic had ID'd what Crystal is, and since I don't speak native D&D I can't remember what it was. But it fits perfectly with the DR and slam attacks. Now I'm gonna have to pour through that discussion to satisfy my curiosity. I'm pretty sure whoever it was nailed it.

[Kaytara]

Rich, is it okay if I ask you how you gained your - for lack of a better word - proficiency in talking about and tackling the subject of marginalised groups? Most people don't just stumble on something social justice-ey and keep reading, not with the kind of ingrained bias we're all brought up with, and a lot of people in your position - men with a runaway successful project in a male-oriented genre - tend to get blinded by hubris and become resistant to any and all criticism, never mind that on the subject of representation.

In terms of a rescue by another PC, architecturally they don't look like they're near the Temples. But the building Elan bounced towards *does* look a bit like "Hats and MORE!" That's probably reading too much into it given the clear backgrounding of the other buildings, but given their locations in town, if there were to be an intervention, I'd expect it to come from Belkar or Varsuvius rather than Roy.

I'd ask why, precisely, V needs to be "nailed down". Non-binary people exist. They're not an unknown, and they've existed in various cultures historically. Not every culture is as adamant about gender essentialism as Western culture is. And, in-between the extremely consistent lack of gendered pronouns to refer to oneself, and an outright "I fail to see what difference it makes" when the party tries to guess the Oracle's gender, V seems to be pretty damn clearly of the opinion that gender in general is irrelevant, and probably doesn't identify as either.

In some ways, trying to "guess V's gender" is a beloved traditional pasttime of forum goers, but after becoming more aware of the genderqueer community, I've come to the conclusion that the very frequency with which this question arises and the desperation with which people keep asking and guessing if V's "a boy or a girl" says some pretty troubling things about how much we're conditioned to believe the gender binary myth. If you're interested in why it's a myth, read the Wiki page on 'Intersex'. The sheer breadth of sexual characteristics that show up in nature alone disprove the "it's biology" aspect of it, which gender essentialism tends to be based on.

[Liliet]

This is the only reason I really found the line important, as it shows just how far along Haley's gone with one of her more important character arcs.

There are other reasons it's important, but this one is good too.

[Burner28]

Pretty cool strip.

[cybishop]

Getting back to a discussion of the actual plot...

I'm hoping Haley will just straight-up run away and get Roy. There's a time and place for proving yourself or dealing with your own rival, but Rogues don't fare well against golems, to put it lightly. A little Power Attack action ought to take her down a notch.

Haley probably realizes that she's not well-matched against a whatever-Crystal-is, but she can't outrun Crystal while carrying Elan and shouldn't leave him behind. Ideally she'll send Bandanna and/or a bystander to get help while she distracts Crystal.

[Giggling Ghast]

Probably Cadaver Golem. "Misshapened constructs easily mistaken for flesh golems, but they are more intelligent and dangerous, capable of making use of the skills and abilities of those who contributed to its body."
Edit: It cannot be a cadaver golem, as it requires at least six bodies.

Haley definitely killed more than six members of the thieves guild.

And yes, while Grubwiggler is dead, I think his assistant may still be alive.