My group is guinea pigging several classes for me

[big teej]

classes that I know, either from experience, reading through these forums, or other sources of info - to suck

I have made a commitement to these players to do everything I can to tweak, bend, break, repair, and whatever contort these classes into a functioning shape.


I have formed several of my own ideas about where the problem areas will arise, and I've begun the process of weeding through solutions I am happy with.

however, I am but one DM, with an incredibly full schedule.

so I am coming to ask for your collective input on where I should be watching problem areas to arise. (i.e. class features are under-powered, does not perform on par with similar classes, etc.)

the classes my players are playtesting for me are
The Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior)
The Soulborn (Magic of Incarnum)
and
A Monk fix found on this forum that I am tweaking to better suit my needs.
link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-Monk-Remixed

for the sake of aiding discussion, the changes I have made thus far to the monk are:
- 3rd level - empty strike - wisdom applies to attack and damage
- skills
- class gets 6+int skill points per level
- removed: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Forgery, Perform, and Profession from skill list.
- Tweak: instead of having all knowledge skills as class skills, the player may choose a number of knowledge skills equal to the character's intelligence modifier.

Spoiler: Potential alternatives to Knowledge skills

Show

Knowledge (any 4)
or
I will pick through and specify knowledge skills I find appropriate (such as Religion, Nature, History, etc.)

I am (attempting to) deliberately leave out as much information as possible, as I seek to have the classes discussed in a relative vaccuum. what is wrong with a class? why is it weak? where should these weaknesses be apparent/meaningful? where should the class be strong that it is not? what are your most common remedies for these problems?


please refrain from suggesting solutions based on Optimization or replacing a class with another. (for example, if the Fighter class was on my guinea-pig list, I would not find it helpful to be directed to an uber-charger build, a lock-down tripper build, or "use a TOB class instead")

you are free to inquire after further information, but I feel (read: hope) that this is sufficient for the type of discussion I am seeking to generate.


thankyou for your time.

EDIT: this post/thread was moved over from the 3.5 forum (thanks mods) and was left unchanged, for sake of continuity. read: I'm lazy

[unbutu]

Questionning your approach
So you are refering to these classes rating on the tier list I presume.

What are those classes respective tiers ? If they are all low tier, is it really a ''Problem'' still ? If so, why ?


Small contribution

I suspect you have tought about some changes for the other classes, not only monk, have you ? If so, I suggest you add those, so that your thread starts from further.

[WeaselGuy]

Personally, I don't find the Swashbuckler to be all that weak. There are a number of builds and scenarios in which a well played Swashbuckler is a great choice. I would assume (or advice, if he doesn't) that he has an above average Dexterity, to capitalize on the free Weapon Finesse, and the same for Intelligence, with regards to Insightful Strike.

Spoiler: Some optimization, if you're interested...

Show

If I may offer a few suggestions with regards to this character, advise him to pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Thinblade) at level 1, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Hand Crossbow) at level 3, take a level of Fighter at around level 6, with the Hit & Run Tactics ACF, netting Dexterity to damage versus flat-footed opponents, then both Hand Crossbow Focus and Versatile Combatant.

Basically, the Thinblade ups his damage die by 1 (from d6 to d8). The Hand Crossbow, well, I just like Hand Crossbows. Hand Crossbow Focus allows you to reload it as a free action, without provoking an attack of opportunity, and functions as Weapon Focus for the Hand Crossbow as well. Versatile Combatant lets you mix in a free shot with your Hand Crossbow with stabs from your Rapier, without provoking attacks of opportunity from shooting while threatened. The Thinblade specifically says that it counts as a Rapier for the purpose of other feats.

If you can fit in 3 levels of Rogue before switching back to Swashbuckler, take Daring Outlaw at level 9 and Craven at 12. Now you have sneak attack as a 19th level Rogue (at level 20), and bonus damage on your sneak attacks equal to your level. Carry marbles around to force your opponents to become flat-footed, or drop a crapload of points into Use Magic Device during your Rogue levels (I'd suggest this anyways) and snag some Wands of Grease. Marbles are cheaper though.

[Troacctid]

For Soulborn, the first thing I would do is increase the frequency of their bonus feats. Every odd level seems like a good starting point. And the bonus feats could be any feat from MoI, including Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra et al. I'd allow them to reallocate essentia from [Incarnum] feats normally instead of locking it in at the beginning of the day, although that should really be a fix for the feats, not the Soulborn. Finally, I would make their smite opposition function per encounter rather than per day so that they can actually get some good use out of it. That seems like a reasonable place to start.

[big teej]

For Soulborn, the first thing I would do is increase the frequency of their bonus feats. Every odd level seems like a good starting point. And the bonus feats could be any feat from MoI, including Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra et al. I'd allow them to reallocate essentia from [Incarnum] feats normally instead of locking it in at the beginning of the day, although that should really be a fix for the feats, not the Soulborn. Finally, I would make their smite opposition function per encounter rather than per day so that they can actually get some good use out of it. That seems like a reasonable place to start.

I will definitely add these to my list of things to keep an eye on, and my list of fixity things.

wait... fixity is a real word?

[Karl Aegis]

Looking at the classes, they don't seem to have class features that anyone would actually want. The only things of note are the Monk's AC Bonus and the Swashbuckler's Intuitive Strike. But, the classes don't actually have skills that go with the stat. Swashbucklers get Craft for their Int skill and Monk gets Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, and Profession for Wis skills.

It'd be nice if the class had actual more uses for skills like a skill check replacing a save (like Diamond Mind manuevers) or being able to charge at angles other classes can't (also Diamond Mind manuevers). Wouldn't it be nice if you could convince yourself with a bluff that the spell wasn't that scary? Or being so fast you can act before everyone else and attack someone before initiative is rolled?

[atemu1234]

Looking at the classes, they don't seem to have class features that anyone would actually want. The only things of note are the Monk's AC Bonus and the Swashbuckler's Intuitive Strike. But, the classes don't actually have skills that go with the stat. Swashbucklers get Craft for their Int skill and Monk gets Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, and Profession for Wis skills.

It'd be nice if the class had actual more uses for skills like a skill check replacing a save (like Diamond Mind manuevers) or being able to charge at angles other classes can't (also Diamond Mind manuevers). Wouldn't it be nice if you could convince yourself with a bluff that the spell wasn't that scary? Or being so fast you can act before everyone else and attack someone before initiative is rolled?

Hence, Unarmed and Unarmored Swordsage.

[big teej]

wouldn't it be nice if people could accept the stated premise that I'm not using TOB?

[Karl Aegis]

wouldn't it be nice if people could accept the stated premise that I'm not using TOB?

Tome of Battle classes don't have a trap stat attached to their classes. Would anyone ever invest in wisdom on their monk if it didn't give a bonus to AC? Would anyone invest in intelligence on their swashbuckler if it didn't give a bonus to damage? Does a swashbuckler even use charisma at all? Even with these bonuses, wouldn't you be better off just using a two-handed weapon and heavy armor?

[big teej]

my group does not, and likely never will, use Tome of Battle.


why is this such an impossible concept to grasp?

I explicitly called it, and Optimization suggestions, out as not being useful to this discussion.

[Karl Aegis]

my group does not, and likely never will, use Tome of Battle.


why is this such an impossible concept to grasp?

I explicitly called it, and Optimization suggestions, out as not being useful to this discussion.

Using an example of a class with desirable class features is not the same as telling you to use that class. Would it make you feel better if Druid was used as the example of how a class needs class features?

[WeaselGuy]

It seems to me that in this particular case, what you are looking for is homebrewed class fix solutions (a guess), and not character optimization fixes (a fact, since you said that). Since you also don't want alternate class suggestions (as evidenced by the ToB debate), I doubt you appreciated my Swashbuckler solution either (since it was basically a Daring Outlaw build, predicated on specific feats and taking levels in classes other than Swashbuckler). What this all boils down to is the following:

You seem to be in the wrong place. Check out the Homebrew threads.

Just my 2c worth.