Experimenting with the unwashed masses makes you STRONG (WoT d20)

[Dragonmuncher]

So I was flipping through a copy of the WoT d20 book, and I noticed something interesting. Channeler base classes- intiate and wilder- are much more powerful with a bit of multiclassing than by themselves.

Initiate for two levels, wilder for your third (while simultaneously using your 3rd level feat to take Eliminate Block). Then keep taking intiate for the larger number of feats.

You get the Overchannel bonus and the Cha bonus weaves, along with a free Affinity and Talent from wilder level one.

Add those benefits to the intiate's faster channeler feat progression, the intiate's Weavesight bonus, her Wis and Int bonus weaves. A wilder/intiate multiclass uses the intiate's weaves per day chart, with the levels stacking for CL.

Seems pretty sweet to me, and definitely better than a straight intiate.


Or am I missing something here?

[melchizedek]

Well, it might work in theory, but no good DM would allow it. A wilder is someone who learned to channel by herself, without aid from any group. An initiate is someone who had help learning from a group such as the Aes Sedai. It might be possible to start as a wilder and then take levels in initiate. I'd have to look at that, but I would never allow someone to take levels in wilder after taking levels in initiate.

[Behold_the_Void]

Forgive my ignorance, but I can't seem to find it in the acronym thread. What's WoT?

[melchizedek]

Wheel of Time

[Indon]

Wheel of Time.

I recall playing part of a campaign in that, once. I was a wilder (Aiel, in fact); after wandering about and killing a bunch of trollocs, I got picked up by an Asha'man. It wasn't until then that it would be reasonable to advance as an initiate (and I did until I could qualify as Asha'man).

Wilders have no access to training. Initiates do. If anything, you would want to be an initiate who rebels against the discipline of their order, taking wilder levels alongside your initiate levels. It'd be unfeasible to do it the other way around.

Edit: And the Wilder-becomes-initiate thing is very much story-viable. I could name a couple powerful channelers who started out as wilders and picked up 'levels' in initiate by taking formal training, and it's as much said in the books that wilders are really powerful once they break their blocks.

[Dragonmuncher]

Sorry. Wheel of Time. It's a fantasy book series by Robert Jordan. They made a d20 game of it a few years ago.

As for you, mel, the book says that an intiate might take some wilder levels if they're away from their tradition (Wise Ones, White Tower, Sea Folk, Asha'man) for an extended period of time. I can easily picture an Accepted (which is what a low-level intiate is supposed to be) who is for some reason out adventuring, and picks up uncouth wilder ways.

The adventure book Prophecies of the Dragon has a whole section of the appendix about multiclassed channelers, so it's definitely allowed, RAW.

That's what I meant about tweaking, though. Wilders should definitely be allowed to become intiates, and I really like the idea of an intiate learning some wilder techniques (although, RP wise, it would be pretty taboo). But seeing as this one-level dip gives you a bunch of goodies for the cost of one feat, something should be fixed, I think.

Maybe there's eratta I don't know about?

[Dragonmuncher]

Wheel of Time.

I recall playing part of a campaign in that, once. I was a wilder (Aiel, in fact); after wandering about and killing a bunch of trollocs, I got picked up by an Asha'man. It wasn't until then that it would be reasonable to advance as an initiate (and I did until I could qualify as Asha'man).

Wilders have no access to training. Initiates do. If anything, you would want to be an initiate who rebels against the discipline of their order, taking wilder levels alongside your initiate levels. It'd be unfeasible to do it the other way around.

Edit: And the Wilder-becomes-initiate thing is very much story-viable. I could name a couple powerful channelers who started out as wilders and picked up 'levels' in initiate by taking formal training, and it's as much said in the books that wilders are really powerful once they break their blocks.

Actually, I noticed something else odd. Wilders learn a free new weave each level, but as far as I can tell, intiates don't learn anything automatically. Then again, an intiate supposedly has a "mentor" that I guess can teach her spells. Still, it's weird.

[melchizedek]

If you look at the character sheets given in the book, Nynaeve (the clearest example) doesn't have levels in initiate. She remains a wilder throughout her character progression. That is what I would recommend if any of my characters who began as wilders wanted to become initiates.

I'd have trouble justifying taking Wilder levels after rebelling against their order. I might consider allowing it, but I might not. For one thing, no order is going to accept rogue members. Most orders will hunt down rogues and force them continue their training.

[Indon]

Well, per the books, Wilders have more raw power. Their power is so much that they have to supress it unconsciously, or it could kill them, in fact; thus the block, and the fact that an unblocked wilder can be very powerful.

The universe of a book series by no means needs to be balanced for powergaming.

[Annarrkkii]

I so wish Wizards would refine and republish the Wheel of Time Campaign Setting. After RJ puts out A Memory of Light, they absolutely HAVE to revamp and it and put it back out there. If they'd just PLAYTESTED once or twice, they could have made it so much better, and RJ's 15 years' work has created such a gorgeous setting for a campaign...

I've often considered just adapting WoT as a bit of a D+D module using Spell Point variants or something... There's an interesting Skill-based power use thing out there somewhere.

But yes. In general, no one in any published source has Wilder and Initiate levels. Though the characters in the back of the sourcebook are slightly off, when not wildly inaccurate, even the savvy net revisions on CalloftheHorn have even such characters as Nynaeve as straight wilder—often without even Aes Sedai levels. In my opinion, how you learned is everything. Once you've taken a class, you've learned, and your path is set. You can't be a wilder and then learn how to be an initiate. The epiphany Nynaeve has when Moggy sinks her wagon doesn't count—that's just her finally getting her act together and taking Overcome Block.

[Fizban]

I liked the idea, and thought about trying to convert some of the weaves into spells for DnD, but the "balance" of magic in the two systems is quite different (as in different effects cost more or less, wrapping people in air is common in WoT but freezing people in DnD is hard).

I was dissapointed in how they statted Rand, even though to stat him properly would have required either a crazy epic build or something like gestalt.

Finally, I was rather annoyed at the apparent time they released it relative to the books, it's waaay outdated.