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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    The racial write-ups look okay. Changeling and Shifter are solid. Warforged ... are okay, though I'm tempted to create a variant with innate body armor.

    And while as a quick and dirty conversion, it's okay, I'd rather see the Artificer as it's own base class.

    Dragonmarks as a feat, is probably the only way to model it, though it does mean most PCs can't start with one.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader View Post
    The racial write-ups look okay. Changeling and Shifter are solid. Warforged ... are okay, though I'm tempted to create a variant with innate body armor.

    And while as a quick and dirty conversion, it's okay, I'd rather see the Artificer as it's own base class.

    Dragonmarks as a feat, is probably the only way to model it, though it does mean most PCs can't start with one.
    It bugs me that so many shifters sub races get a bonus to dexterity... They could have put a little thought into making sub races that got a +1 Cha (hey, kids today are all about twilight...).

    Wotc really needs to think outside boring outdated cliches.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Atmosfear View Post
    I feel like everyone who loves this Artificer needs to take a good, long look at the actual potions and Magic Items Table A and B before they get too excited. They took one of the most unique and interesting classes and made him a generic, bland mess.
    I mean, in all fairness, this is a pretty good way to get the Artificer feel from an existing class in the existing structure of 5e. I get the distinct impression that WotC won't be releasing new, full-fledged classes until they're done getting feedback on the classes that already exist. It'll be a lot easier for them to move forward and start filling the niches left behind in 5e's design space after they get a good idea of what players actually want from the edition.

    It's a strategy I think will work for them in the long run, but right now, it does seem like 5e development is proceeding pretty slowly. I imagine they just want to get it right the first time without breaking any promises rather than pledging a bunch of stuff they can't deliver.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Atmosfear View Post
    I feel like everyone who loves this Artificer needs to take a good, long look at the actual potions and Magic Items Table A and B before they get too excited. They took one of the most unique and interesting classes and made him a generic, bland mess.
    I think you're being too literal with that list.
    Any L3-4 or lower spell which affects the caster can be made into potion form. Any L3-4 spell which can affect anyone, including the caster, can be made in a potion form which only affects the imbiber.
    Yes, I realize that many of those spells aren't listed on the tables, but that doesn't mean a DM has to immediately disallow them.
    Example: potion of disguise self isn't on the list, but why would a DM disallow it?

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by calebrus View Post
    I think you're being too literal with that list.
    Any L3-4 or lower spell which affects the caster can be made into potion form. Any L3-4 spell which can affect anyone, including the caster, can be made in a potion form which only affects the imbiber.
    Yes, I realize that many of those spells aren't listed on the tables, but that doesn't mean a DM has to immediately disallow them.
    Example: potion of disguise self isn't on the list, but why would a DM disallow it?
    Sorry, but no. If that's what they intended, they should've included that. Potion of Growth and Potion of Climbing are both based on second level spells, but cost a first-level slot. Potion of Invisibility is based on a second-level spell but costs a third-level slot.

    If we're trying to divine RAI from this, then I'd choose to divine Keith Baker's version, which doesn't suck.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Seems strange that all the races only have a +1/+1 to stats, while almost all PHB races have +2/+1. (Except Dwarf. Don't know why mountain dwarves get +2/+2. Seems stronger than the rest. :/) Especially Changeling. The shapechanging seems to basically be the High Elves cantrip choice, but you don't get to choose the cantrip.

    That being said, love to see that they're putting out new stuff. Especially changeling. One of my main characters in 3.5 was a changeling.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Myrmidon View Post
    Seems strange that all the races only have a +1/+1 to stats, while almost all PHB races have +2/+1. (Except Dwarf. Don't know why mountain dwarves get +2/+2. Seems stronger than the rest. :/) Especially Changeling. The shapechanging seems to basically be the High Elves cantrip choice, but you don't get to choose the cantrip.

    That being said, love to see that they're putting out new stuff. Especially changeling. One of my main characters in 3.5 was a changeling.
    Maybe wotc thinks that just the pleasure of olayingbonebof these races is worth the +1 to ASI.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Atmosfear View Post
    I feel like everyone who loves this Artificer needs to take a good, long look at the actual potions and Magic Items Table A and B before they get too excited. They took one of the most unique and interesting classes and made him a generic, bland mess.
    I'm looking at it, and seeing that they can make spell scrolls of any spell of 3rd-level or lower, as well as a small pile of useful magic items. Any spellcaster can get formulas to make more powerful magic items, so the better crafting can be represented by that. Personally, I really like this iteration of the artificer. They've got some neat stuff to set them apart from the other wizards (focus on "storing" spells for later use, ability to enchant items), and the fact that they trade slots for their abilities means that it avoids the pitfalls of the 3.5 artificer's crafting and WBL-mancy.

    I'm not seeing a viable way to import the 3.5 artificer wholesale into 5e without losing at least something, so they dropped the most problematic thing (breaking the game through item crafting) and kept some of the other cool stuff (buffing things, creating consumable items to use as needed). Artificer in 3.5 was the most broken class in the game, bar high-op Psion and Paladin. There's no possible way to import that sort of thing into 5e, a game already have less in the realms of christmas trees and magic items, without breaking the game into little pieces.

    I would have given them some way to get construct minions, but overall, I am quite happy with what we got.

    On the note of the races, I'm a bit annoyed that they're all +1/+1 for ability scores, but otherwise I'm glad that they're supporting the setting online. I'll probably buff them for my games to +2/+1.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Yay for long replies!

    Quote Originally Posted by AirApparent View Post
    My only issue with the dragonmarks as feats is that barring houserules you have to be human to have one at first level.
    Ah, a houserule! Here's mine, which I just now made up:
    If you with to take a dragonmark at level 1, you may do so without spending a feat. However, you only gain access to the cantrip, and you must spend your next available feat slot to get the dragon mark feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    But they need to stop with this type of stuff and start working on Magic of Incarnum already...
    Yeah!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichneumon View Post
    I would like it if they'd publish an article on Incarnum and maybe the classes from 3.5's Tome of Magic.
    I think this would be bad. It's better to wait until the edition is well established to bring in entirely new rulesets, especially ones that add so much complexity. If they do these now, they'll be half-baked subclasses that lose the majority of the subsystems' flavor. I want to see incarnum done justice.
    Oh, and a a low-quality instant-partial-homebrew binder:
    Spoiler: Warlock patron: Binder
    Show
    (notes: I do not have my books on hand (which is why there are no spells here). Also, this has only a very vague semblance of balance.)

    Instead of choosing one patron to make a pact with, you have chosen them all.
    Binding: You may make temporary pacts with the other warlock patrons. As a 1-hour ritual (which may be part of a long rest), you may form a 1-day pact with one of the other warlock patrons. The powers granted by that patron lie silently within you until you choose to activate them, at which point you gain the full benefits of that patron for a number of hours equal to your charisma modifier. You must complete a short rest before you can use this ability again.

    When you would get your next patron feature, you gain the ability to conduct a 1-hour ritual to change the pact that you benefit from. This effect is permanent. If you change pact then return to your previous pact, you keep the same version of the pact you previously possessed (for example, you may not change the spells in your book each time you choose the Pact of the Tome).

    Alternate binding: At level 1, you get something. For the second patron feature, you gain the ability to choose one of the other patrons each day, and get the first ability they grant. As the third feature, you also gain the other patron's second feature, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Pretty much nailed the concept behind the races (Changeling and Warforged would be in, Shifter would have its own set of subraces), but I'm sorely disappointed about Artificer being a Wizard subclass.
    What about the Kalashtar?
    And yeah, it sucks that artificer had to be lost inside wizard, but it's not bad.

    If there's a lot of sound behind it and perhaps a solid response in a survey, they might make an actual Eberron supplement; otherwise, at least they pay lip service.
    They'd better...
    And such a supplement might contain a better artificer!

    Kinda surprised that they decided to go with Dragonmarks as feats, and make them auto-scale. It's the simplest way to handle it, but it kinda ruins the idea of having characters without more powerful Dragonmarks and it sorta begs the question of how they'll handle Siberys marks.
    1. If you don't want the bigger dragonmark, you could say you don't have it and never use the ability.
    2. That does not beg any question. It raises the question.

    Surprised as well that they didn't dealt with Magic Items other than the Artificer providing a temporary boost to weapons and armor and creating temporary potions and scrolls. Not sure how many people will miss the Homunculus, though (then again, the Iron Defender might probably be a Familiar in this case, available only to Artificers?)
    Another houserule! Yay me!
    Homunculus: When you cast the spell find familiar, your familiar is of the construct type instead of its normal type, ignoring the types normally used by that spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by calebrus View Post
    Basically, at our table, it would be like disguise self, but actually a physical change rather than magical.
    Yeah, that seems like a good idea. IIRC, that's exactly what I did in my homebrew changeling, but with a much longer and more complex wording.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rfkannen View Post
    What are all the shifters supposed to be decendants of again?
    All the were-things!

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader View Post
    The racial write-ups look okay. Changeling and Shifter are solid. Warforged ... are okay, though I'm tempted to create a variant with innate body armor.
    What? +1 AC isn't innate body armor?
    Yeah, the Warforged here is a bit lackluster, but it has nice abilities. Personally, I'd give +2 Con (possibly replacing the strength bonus), and I'd make some sort of subraces for the different metals.
    Ooh, ooh, ooh! More homebrew!
    Spoiler: Warforged subraces
    Show
    Spoiler: Warforged as presented in the article
    Show
    Ability Score Increase. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 1.
    Size. Warforged are generally broader and heavier than humans. Your size is Medium.
    Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
    Composite Plating. Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
    Living Construct. Even though you were constructed, you are a living creature. You are immune to disease. You do not need to eat or breathe, but you can ingest food and drink if you wish.
    Instead of sleeping, you enter an inactive state for 4 hours each day. You do not dream in this state; you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.
    Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language of your choice.

    Base (this is a variant of the normal warforged)
    Abilities. +1 Str, +2 Con.
    All others as presented in the article.

    Adamantine
    Abilities. +2 Con. This replaces the normal racial ability score modifiers
    Composite Adamantine Plating. +2 AC. You have a maximum dexterity bonus to armor class of +2. This replaces the normal Composite Plating trait.
    Speed. 25 feet.
    (For additional balance, consider adding these: requires 6 hours pseudo-sleep instead of 4, only knows one language, speed down to 20 feet, and/or a max dex bonus of +3).

    Mithral
    Abilities. +1 Dex, +1 Con. This replaces the normal racial ability score modifiers.
    Speed. 35 feet.
    (Alternative: +1 Str, +1 Dex)



    Tl;dr:
    I made a bunch of quick home-brew!
    Level 1 dragon marks, binders as a partial warlock subclass, an artificer's homunculus, and warforged subraces!

    UP WITH EBERRON! DOWN WITH THE FORGOTTEN REALMS!
    Last edited by Zweisteine; 2016-01-20 at 12:43 PM.
    Jon Snow and Ghost avatar (not currently in use) by Gurgleflep 15370262 328.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Atmosfear View Post
    One reliable concentration buff. One.
    Yeah, but it's a sweet one.

    Also, I'll be allowing all the other potions and this gives me a framework to base it around.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by calebrus View Post
    Yes and no.
    If a potion casts a spell (such as invisibility) that requires concentration, then the imbiber must maintain concentration.

    DMG, Chapter 7, page 141 > Activating an Item (drinking a potion activates it) > Spells:
    "Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration.
    Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell."


    So the Artificer doesn't have to concentrate on it unless he's the one that drinks it. It still requires concentration, just maybe not from the Artificer.
    ok, and what's the next sentence after the bolded part say?

    "Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration"

    which is pretty important, because all the stuff before that is talking about how you handle items that let you cast a spell... ie not potions, because potions don't let you cast the spell. it bypasses casting the spell, and confers the spell's effects with their usual duration. the spell is never cast as such, and if nobody casts the spell, nobody needs to concentrate on the spell. the rules before are for things like, say, wands, which do allow you to cast a spell. if you use a wand of web to cast a web spell, you must concentrate it. if you were to drink a potion of web (if such a thing even exists), nobody casts a spell, you just get all webby and your life sucks.

    additionally, as written, the artificer appears to be able to use the ability to create scrolls to create a scroll of any spell they know. I pretty much expect that to change, because right now the artificer can use that to essentially cast high level spells twice in one day... something which WotC seems to have gone to a great deal of effort to ensure does *not* happen in every other situation I can think of.

    add to that the ability to give bonuses to AC and attack/damage (up to +3 AC and up to +4 attack/damage if used for a ranged character, +2 attack/damage for melee) which last 8 hours and take no concentration, as noted... admittedly not stacking with magic weapons or armour, but still, pretty significant.

    it really does not look at all weak to me. quite the opposite, in fact.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Thats true a 20th level Wizard Artificer could make a 9th level Scroll at the start of the day and still have a bit of Spell Levels to refresh his lowers. That is a very good ability.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    ok, and what's the next sentence after the bolded part say?

    "Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration"

    which is pretty important, because all the stuff before that is talking about how you handle items that let you cast a spell... ie not potions, because potions don't let you cast the spell. it bypasses casting the spell, and confers the spell's effects with their usual duration. the spell is never cast as such, and if nobody casts the spell, nobody needs to concentrate on the spell. the rules before are for things like, say, wands, which do allow you to cast a spell. if you use a wand of web to cast a web spell, you must concentrate it. if you were to drink a potion of web (if such a thing even exists), nobody casts a spell, you just get all webby and your life sucks.
    Wrong.
    It says it bypasses the casting of the spell and confers the spell's effects, yes.
    But that just means it reads like this instead:
    "The spell potion uses its normal casting time range and duration, and the user of the item potion drinker must concentrate if the spell requires concentration."

    It bypassed the "casting of the spell" because you didn't cast it, the potion did. You drank the potion to activate it. Beyond that, it works exactly like the spell, and if that spell required concentration, so does the potion (unless it specifically says otherwise, like the potion of growth).
    Last edited by calebrus; 2015-02-02 at 09:35 PM.

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    Kobold

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    I would have given them some way to get construct minions, but overall, I am quite happy with what we got.
    Animate Object usable 1/day no spell slot used up?

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by calebrus View Post
    Wrong.
    It says it bypasses the casting of the spell and confers the spell's effects, yes.
    But that just means it reads like this instead:
    "The spell potion uses its normal casting time range and duration, and the user of the item potion drinker must concentrate if the spell requires concentration."

    It bypassed the "casting of the spell" because you didn't cast it, the potion did. You drank the potion to activate it. Beyond that, it works exactly like the spell, and if that spell required concentration, so does the potion (unless it specifically says otherwise, like the potion of growth).
    eh, not seeing that.

    the caster is the one who has to concentrate on the spell. if there is no caster (which is the case because casting the spell got bypassed), there is nobody who has to concentrate on the spell.

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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Kind of like what Zwei said, I had an idea for the homunculus.

    Allow an artificer to craft a Small construct body around level 5 or 6. He may use the Find Familiar spell/ritual to infuse a fey/celestial/fiendish spirit into the body to animate it (or if he has a familiar already, put the spirit into the body, much like changing a familiar's shape). If the construct is destroyed, the familiar is as well. Should the artificer wish to change the homonculus' shape, he can craft a new body, and cast the spell again to move the spirit into a new body.

    "Homonculus" familiars should probably not be able to disappear into a pocket dimension, but should probably be more hardy.

    Give me some time, I could probably come up with some decent statistics for Iron Defender, Packmate, and maybe one or two more familiars.
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Even if it did force the potion drinker to concentrate on it, you still get to split concentration among other party members who wouldn't have normally done so.

    In an intrigue game, getting the rogue to concentrate on mind reading so you can cast charm person or somesuch

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    if there is no caster (which is the case because casting the spell got bypassed), there is nobody who has to concentrate on the spell.
    "and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration."
    I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp here. The casting of the spell got bypassed by the drinking of the potion. Using the Artificer's spell slot, the potion essentially cast the spell instead of the Artificer.
    There is someone to concentrate. The user of the item, in this case, the person who drank the potion.
    Just like the rules say.

    edit:
    Unless you're saying that no magic items that cast spells ever have "someone" casting them, and therefore none of them ever require concentration.
    If that's the case, why add that line about the user of the item in the first place?
    If that's the case, why do some of the potions (growth, heroism, etc) specifically state that no concentration is required? That would be a completely redundant line of text, which only appears in a handful of the potions listed.
    Last edited by calebrus; 2015-02-02 at 10:02 PM.

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    To all those who are going to call this abuse - sure, way too strong for a racial ability. But remember to keep your arguments game balance based, because RaW I'm 100% right - we know how polymorph works, and shapechanger specifies that you're polymorphing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    No because they just look like another Humanoid they don't actually get their traits or stats or any hp. Also they just straight up die and turn back to their normal form when killed while Polymorphed.
    See, that's actually not true. Polymorphing isn't a general condition, it's a specific spell, and it states that the target's game statistics are replaced by the new form's and that the transformation lasts until you hit 0 hp or die. The shapechanging ability has a few differences, namely that they revert to their new appearance if they die any can turn into any humanoid they have seen instead of beasts in general - which means, RaW, that they can flat out turn into party members and gain their stats. Great way to double up on the artificer's power at the start of the day!

    Side note - 0hp or die for polymorph, the only part that is changed for shapechanger is dying. If you hit 0hp, out pops your full HP normal form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Myrmidon View Post
    Seems strange that all the races only have a +1/+1 to stats, while almost all PHB races have +2/+1. (Except Dwarf. Don't know why mountain dwarves get +2/+2. Seems stronger than the rest. :/) Especially Changeling. The shapechanging seems to basically be the High Elves cantrip choice, but you don't get to choose the cantrip.
    Warforged get +1 AC, shifters get temporary HP+beasthide or razorclaw(others aren't worth using), changelings get a racial ability so absurdly good that they don't need stats at all - not sure why you're equating it to a cantrip, it's a humanoid only polymorph. Was a bit worried about the can't speak, cast etc part until I remembered it specified it was due to lack of hands or speech so the humanoid part fixes that.
    Last edited by Eslin; 2015-02-02 at 10:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    To all those who are going to call this abuse - sure, way too strong for a racial ability. But remember to keep your arguments game balance based, because RaW I'm 100% right - we know how polymorph works, and shapechanger specifies that you're polymorphing.



    See, that's actually not true. Polymorphing isn't a general condition, it's a specific spell, and it states that the target's game statistics are replaced by the new form's and that the transformation lasts until you hit 0 hp or die. The shapechanging ability has a few differences, namely that they revert to their new appearance if they die any can turn into any humanoid they have seen instead of beasts in general - which means, RaW, that they can flat out turn into party members and gain their stats. Great way to double up on the artificer's power at the start of the day!

    Side note - 0hp or die for polymorph, the only part that is changed for shapechanger is dying. If you hit 0hp, out pops your full HP normal form.


    Warforged get +1 AC, shifters get temporary HP+beasthide or razorclaw(others aren't worth using), changelings get a racial ability so absurdly good that they don't need stats at all - not sure why you're equating it to a cantrip, it's a humanoid only polymorph. Was a bit worried about the can't speak, cast etc part until I remembered it specified it was due to lack of hands or speech so the humanoid part fixes that.
    That is all assuming that the Changeling is casting the Polymorph spell, which he isn't. The description makes no statement regarding the spell but it does state that he transforms into humanoids which is mutually exclusive with the spell that can only transform things into beasts.
    The description is using the word polymorph as a verb, not some game defined term - it is merely stating that the Changeling can transform into other humanoids but it doesn't give us any specifics on what that actually means. However as the ability doesn't make any mention that the character's abilities are replaced in any way, it is safe to assume that the character's basic abilities remain as that is the status quo for any ability that doesn't state otherwise.

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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by calebrus View Post
    "and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration."
    I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp here.[QUTIf that's the case, why do some of the potions (growth, heroism, etc) specifically state that no concentration is required? That would be a completely redundant line of text, which only appears in a handful of the potions listed.
    SharkForce is interpreting that DMG paragraph differently than you are.

    I will attempt to clarify what Shark said, based on the passage from the DMG.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMG p141
    Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration.
    Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell.
    The first bolded statement says that some items let people cast spells. The paragraph then describes what happens when an item lets you cast a spell.
    The second bolded statement says that other items do not involve casting a spell, but simply grant the spell's effect.

    So Shark is saying that the bit about concentration applies only to items that let you cast a spell, and not items that bypass the casting, such as potions.

    This is the same position I hold, and might use in games I run. HOWEVER:

    If that's the case, why do some of the potions (growth, heroism, etc) specifically state that no concentration is required? That would be a completely redundant line of text, which only appears in a handful of the potions listed.
    This is the only reason I see to go the other way, and it's a powerful one. If one potion specifically states that it does not require concentration, I would be inclined to believe RAW is that other potions do require concentration.


    So my opinion on this matter is:
    The RAW is unclear and mildly contradictory. The RAI is unknown, and arguments could be made either way. It's entirely possible that whoever wrote the section about items and concentration meant for potions to bypass concentration, and whoever wrote the potions misread that.

    I would allow potions to bypass concentration unless my players abused then, at which point they would reach the point where their bodies are so used to the magic that they have to concentrate to maintain it.


    EDIT:
    EPIPHANY!
    I just realized what's wrong with this Eberron update.
    It's meant as a quick update, something to show off with. It essentially amounts to official WotC homebrew. It didn't undergo playtesting, doesn't seem unreasonably powerful on paper, and, most importantly, is not meant to be used without common sense. These new rules were built only to be used.

    They were not built to withstand the combined might of the internet. A reasonable DM most likely would rule that Changelings can not use polymorph as the spell at will, but have an ability more akin to a physical version of Disguise Self.

    Similarly, these are not meant to be used by DM's who have no idea what they are supposed to be. These are meant for reasonable players and DMs who know about Eberron and want to bring that setting's rules into 5e.

    EDIT 2:
    HA! Would ya look at that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Unearthed Arcana: Eberron
    You can think of the material presented in this series as similar to the first wave of the fifth edition playtest. These game mechanics are in draft form, usable in your campaign but not fully tempered by playtests and design iterations. They are highly volatile and might be unstable; if you use them, be ready to rule on any issues that come up. They’re written in pencil, not ink.
    It's right there in the article!

    Oh, and look, I made a failed project to do all this stuff myself once!
    Last edited by Zweisteine; 2015-02-02 at 10:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    EDIT 2:
    HA! Would ya look at that!

    It's right there in the article!
    Yeah I was about to quote it for you, but it looks like you found it between the time I read your post and hit reply myself.
    Just like everything in 5e, these things require common sense rather than rules-lawyering (these things just moreso). The rules-lawyering need only happen in feedback. Common sense rules at the table.

    Example: You can be certain that the word "polymorph" will be replaced with a phrase akin to " change shape to physically alter his appearance" under the Changeling feature.
    Last edited by calebrus; 2015-02-02 at 10:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Yeah.

    Actually, right after I made that post, I went and checked out Keith Baker's website to see if he'd said anything about this, and it was right there, that quote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell's effects, with their usual duration.
    The first bolded statement says that some items let people cast spells. The paragraph then describes what happens when an item lets you cast a spell.
    The second bolded statement says that other items do not involve casting a spell, but simply grant the spell's effect.

    So Shark is saying that the bit about concentration applies only to items that let you cast a spell, and not items that bypass the casting, such as potions.
    The thing you both seem to be missing is the part I bolded.
    "with their usual duration."
    Take invisibility, for example. What is invisibility's "usual duration?"

    Invisibility:
    Duration: Concentration, up to one hour.

    It doesn't matter if "someone" cast the spell or not. You use its usual duration. If its usual duration requires concentration, the the user of the item must maintain concentration.
    There are exceptions which change durations and/or require no concentration, but those exceptions are spelled out in the potion's description. If no exceptions are listed, it works exactly like the potion drinker cast the spell.

    The casting of the spell is bypassed, meaning it requires no verbal/somatic/material components. You drink the potion in place of doing these things. But unless it specifically states otherwise, the spell "uses their usual duration."
    In the case that its usual duration requires concentration, it tells you that "the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration".

    It's not ambiguous or murky. Like many other rules in 5e it's a little convoluted in how to reach that conclusion, but it's not ambiguous or murky.
    Last edited by calebrus; 2015-02-02 at 11:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    To all those who are going to call this abuse - sure, way too strong for a racial ability. But remember to keep your arguments game balance based, because RaW I'm 100% right - we know how polymorph works, and shapechanger specifies that you're polymorphing.



    See, that's actually not true. Polymorphing isn't a general condition, it's a specific spell, and it states that the target's game statistics are replaced by the new form's and that the transformation lasts until you hit 0 hp or die. The shapechanging ability has a few differences, namely that they revert to their new appearance if they die any can turn into any humanoid they have seen instead of beasts in general - which means, RaW, that they can flat out turn into party members and gain their stats. Great way to double up on the artificer's power at the start of the day!

    Side note - 0hp or die for polymorph, the only part that is changed for shapechanger is dying. If you hit 0hp, out pops your full HP normal form.
    No your 100% wrong. Because this is not the spell Polymorph. You are polymorphing (Which is a word for shapechanging into another thing) The changling then takes the form of a humanoid it has a seen. When they die they turn back to normal. But are still dead. This is not the Polymorph spell. If it was the polymorph spell it would say it was like every ability in the game that uses a spell.

    So no this is not even RaW because it's not the spell. Meaning you are a wrong here. Here is the guy that wrote the thing saying you are wrong.

    @mikemearls The changelings stats are supposed to be the same no matter the form correct.
    @CHoffos correct

    Plus the Pencil not Ink thing as written above.
    Last edited by Envyus; 2015-02-02 at 11:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    That is all assuming that the Changeling is casting the Polymorph spell, which he isn't.
    Yes he is. I've searched all the books for polymorph, it only comes up in the course of the polymorph spell - if it said the changeling got to nondetection or misty step, what would that mean? It would mean you used the spell. Polymorph exists nowhere in 5e apart from spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    The description makes no statement regarding the spell but it does state that he transforms into humanoids which is mutually exclusive with the spell that can only transform things into beasts.
    The description is using the word polymorph as a verb, not some game defined term - it is merely stating that the Changeling can transform into other humanoids but it doesn't give us any specifics on what that actually means. However as the ability doesn't make any mention that the character's abilities are replaced in any way, it is safe to assume that the character's basic abilities remain as that is the status quo for any ability that doesn't state otherwise.
    Except as a verb it still applies as the spell, since the spell is the only description of polymorph we have in 5e. Only differences we can see is humans instead of beasts and equipment remains instead of melding, other than that it's the same - so yes, you replace the stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    No your 100% wrong. Because this is not the spell Polymorph. You are polymorphing (Which is a word for shapechanging into another thing) The changling then takes the form of a humanoid it has a seen. When they die they turn back to normal. But are still dead. This is not the Polymorph spell. If it was the polymorph spell it would say it was like every ability in the game that uses a spell.

    So no this is not even RaW because it's not the spell. Meaning you are a wrong here. Here is the guy that wrote the thing saying you are wrong.
    But it is the spell. We have precisely one source of polymorph in 5e, and it's the polymorph spell - if you get an ability which uses haste as a verb, it pretty clearly means the spell haste. Don't get me wrong, not actually advocating it working like this - going to change how it works, because as-is changelings are insanely overpowered and if the ability is used RaI insanely underpowered (wow, +1 cha +1 dex and a cantrip! Amazing!). But RaW I am absolutely correct, though I expect the wording will be cleared up in the same round of editing that gives changelings better racial abilities.

    Seriously, for the other two +1/+1 makes sense, but for RaI changelings it's incredibly underwhelming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    Yes he is. I've searched all the books for polymorph, it only comes up in the course of the polymorph spell - if it said the changeling got to nondetection or misty step, what would that mean? It would mean you used the spell. Polymorph exists nowhere in 5e apart from spells.


    Except as a verb it still applies as the spell, since the spell is the only description of polymorph we have in 5e. Only differences we can see is humans instead of beasts and equipment remains instead of melding, other than that it's the same - so yes, you replace the stats.


    But it is the spell. We have precisely one source of polymorph in 5e, and it's the polymorph spell - if you get an ability which uses haste as a verb, it pretty clearly means the spell haste. Don't get me wrong, not actually advocating it working like this - going to change how it works, because as-is changelings are insanely overpowered and if the ability is used RaI insanely underpowered (wow, +1 cha +1 dex and a cantrip! Amazing!). But RaW I am absolutely correct, though I expect the wording will be cleared up in the same round of editing that gives changelings better racial abilities.

    Seriously, for the other two +1/+1 makes sense, but for RaI changelings it's incredibly underwhelming.
    That is nonsense logic. Just because the verb in use has the same name as a spell doesn't mean that spell was being cast. DnD doesn't offer definitions for every verb used - we are supposed to use common sense. The verb polymorph is as undefined as any other verb used in the game and yu shouldn't be assigning extra game meanings just because you feel like it. Your argument is akin to saying making friends with someone must impose the bonuses and penalties of the "Friends" spell because we have no other rules on what the friends condition means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eslin View Post
    Yes he is. I've searched all the books for polymorph, it only comes up in the course of the polymorph spell - if it said the changeling got to nondetection or misty step, what would that mean? It would mean you used the spell. Polymorph exists nowhere in 5e apart from spells.


    Except as a verb it still applies as the spell, since the spell is the only description of polymorph we have in 5e. Only differences we can see is humans instead of beasts and equipment remains instead of melding, other than that it's the same - so yes, you replace the stats.


    But it is the spell. We have precisely one source of polymorph in 5e, and it's the polymorph spell - if you get an ability which uses haste as a verb, it pretty clearly means the spell haste. Don't get me wrong, not actually advocating it working like this - going to change how it works, because as-is changelings are insanely overpowered and if the ability is used RaI insanely underpowered (wow, +1 cha +1 dex and a cantrip! Amazing!). But RaW I am absolutely correct, though I expect the wording will be cleared up in the same round of editing that gives changelings better racial abilities.

    Seriously, for the other two +1/+1 makes sense, but for RaI changelings it's incredibly underwhelming.
    No it's not RaW.

    You are still wrong anyway. Polymorphing is physically changing one's body into another shape. They simple forgot to put the stats remain the same no matter the form. Here is the same ability possessed by the Doppelganger aka the parents of Changlings.

    I am going to Bold a part of it.

    Shapechanger. The doppelganger can use its action to polymorph into a Small or Medium humanoid it has seen, or back into its true form. Its statistics, other than its size, are the same in each form. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed. It reverts to its true form if it dies.
    This is literally the power changelings have. Also no it is not under powered RaI. The changeling can do fine in combat but it's main thing is way more helpful out of it. Being able to appear as any humanoid plus auto knowing the deception skill is useful as hell. Need into the Orc fortress changling pretends to be an Orc and lets everyone in. Along with tons of other uses being able to appear as anyone seen can have.

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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    No it's not RaW.

    You are still wrong anyway. Polymorphing is physically changing one's body into another shape. They simple forgot to put the stats remain the same no matter the form. Here is the same ability possessed by the Doppelganger aka the parents of Changlings.

    I am going to Bold a part of it.
    Yep, for doppelgangers the stats remain the same, since it specifically states that. For changelings, who are working with the polymorph spell without that alteration, their stats change. And yes, they did simply forget that - this is a rough draft, as stated I fully expect the wording to be clarified at the same time as they buff the changeling to stop it being an inferior variant human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    This is literally the power changelings have. Also no it is not under powered RaI. The changeling can do fine in combat but it's main thing is way more helpful out of it. Being able to appear as any humanoid plus auto knowing the deception skill is useful as hell. Need into the Orc fortress changling pretends to be an Orc and lets everyone in. Along with tons of other uses being able to appear as anyone seen can have.
    Except that's not even slightly worth it. It's worse than the first level spell which also changes your equipment, which a variant human can pick up with its bonus feat if really necessary - changeling gets a fixed +1/+1 and a fixed skill, variant human gets their choice of +1/+1 and their choice of skill. Changeling is strictly inferior, and needs at least a +2 there somewhere and some more minor abilities.

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    Default Re: Unearthed Arcana - Eberron update released!

    If it is the polymorph spell, then yeah, the +1/+1 is actually overpowered. Or rather, the race would be overpowered, since you could adjust your stats to be whatever you want whenever you want.

    Sooo... you may be right. But if it is basically disguise self at will, the +1/+1 is a little meh, I think.

    Edit: I did not check the topic before posting this. This is probably irrelevant/already stated.
    Last edited by Magic Myrmidon; 2015-02-03 at 12:18 AM.

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