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    Default Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    So here's another work in progress for a morphing of the 3.5 Daggerspell Mage PrC into a Rogue Subclass. Credit to shadow for his version as I got inspired from his material. As always its in draft form so any input to make it better for both flavour and balance is very much appreciated. Here it is:

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    Daggerspell Mage: Daggerspell mages see the quick movements of their deadly daggers as an attendant part of their spellcasting and as such develop a strong mystical connection between their arcane spellcasting and the daggers they wield. These sometimes reclusive figures are melee combatants first and spellcasters second. Daggerspell mages, seek truth and justice, but they define such concepts in the heat of the moment. Daggerspell mages do not see morality as an absolute, and their ideals are guided by their sense of what is right and fair.

    Spellcasting: When you reach 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells.

    Cantrips: You learn three cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn another wizard cantrip of your choice at 10th level.

    Spell Slots: The Daggerspell Mage Spellcasting table (see Arcane Trickster Spellcasting table) shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell burning hands and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast burning hands using either slot.

    Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher: You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the abjuration and evocation spells on the wizard spell list. The Spells Known column of the Daggerspell Mage Spellcasting table (See Arcane Trickster spellcasting table) shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level. The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration orevocation spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 8th, 14th, or 20th level.

    Spellcasting Ability: Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your wizard spells, since you learn your spells through dedicated study and memorization. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a wizard spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

    Daggerspell Stance: Starting at 3rd level, a you gain the Two-weapon fighting combat style, can treat your pair of daggers as an arcane focus for your spells, and you may cast spells with somatic and material components while holding a dagger in each hand. In addition, as a bonus action, you may change the damage type of your daggers to acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder for 1 minute. You can use this feature a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence modifier. When you finish a long rest, you regain all expended uses. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.

    Invocation of the Knife: At 9th level, whenever you use your action to cast a cantrip, you may make one melee weapon attack using a bonus action. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.

    Blade Shift: At 13th level, as long as you have at least one unexpended 3rd or 4th level spell slot remaining, you can use a bonus action to teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. You then have advantage on the first weapon attack you make before the end of the turn. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.

    Daggercast: At 17th level, as a bonus action you can cast a ranged or melee spell attack into one of your daggers, and then deliver it with a weapon attack instead. On a hit, you apply the damage or effect of both the spell attack and the weapon attack. If you miss your attack or fail to attack before the end of your turn, the spell is lost and the spell slot for the spell you used is still expended. If you have advantage when you hit the creature, it has disadvantage on any saving throw it makes against the spell you cast. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only one creature. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.
    Last edited by Ghost Dragon; 2015-03-15 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Revision Draft 8 (Hopefully Final Draft)

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    biggrin Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Dragon View Post
    So here's another work in progress for a morphing of the 3.5 Daggerspell Mage PrC into a Rogue Subclass. Credit to shadow for his version as I got inspired from his material. As always its in draft form so any input to make it better for both flavour and balance is very much appreciated. Here it is:

    Spoiler
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    Daggerspell Mage: Daggerspell mages see the quick movements of their deadly daggers as an attendant part of their spellcasting and as such develop a strong mystical connection between their arcane spellcasting and the daggers they wield. These sometimes reclusive figures are melee combatants first and spellcasters second. Daggerspell mages, seek truth and justice, but they define such concepts in the heat of the moment. Daggerspell mages do not see morality as an absolute, and their ideals are guided by their sense of what is right and fair.

    Spellcasting: When you reach 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells.

    Cantrips: You learn three cantrips: blade ward and two other cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn another wizard cantrip of your choice at 10th level.
    Spell Slots: The Daggerspell Mage Spellcasting table (see Arcane Trickster Spellcasting table) shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell burning hands and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast burning hands using either slot.
    Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher: You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice of any school on the wizard spell list. The Spells Known column of the Daggerspell Mage Spellcasting table (see Arcane Trickster Spellcasting table) shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list.
    Spellcasting Ability: Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your wizard spells, since you learn your spells through dedicated study and memorization. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a wizard spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

    3rd level Daggerspell Stance: Starting at 3rd level, a daggerspell mage can cast spells with material and somatic components while holding a dagger in each hand. When you cast blade ward, you can change the duration to concentration, up to one minute. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to cast blade ward in this way. In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to bestow the blade ward effect to another willing creature within 10 feet of you. If you end your turn further away than 10 feet from the creature while blade ward is in effect on them, the spell ends.
    In addition, whenever you use the Attack action, you can infuse arcane spell power into your daggers, temporarily enabling them to deal extra energy damage. You must expend a spell slot, and choose an energy type, acid, cold, fire, lightning or thunder. Your daggers each then deal an extra 1d8 points of damage of the chosen energy type and have a duration of 1 round per level of the spell slot expended. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.

    9th level Invocation of the Knife: At 9th level you can use a dagger as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells. If you gain possession of a magic dagger, you can attune yourself to it and while you hold it, you can add its magical bonus to spell attack rolls. You can only attune yourself to one of your daggers at a time. Additionally, whenever you take the Attack action you can use a bonus action to make a secondary attack with your other dagger and cast a cantrip, replacing the damage of the dagger for the effects of the cantrip. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only one creature. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.

    13th level Improved Dagger Spell Stance: When you are holding two daggers and are under the effect of blade ward you gain a bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls equal to half your Intelligence modifier rounded down (minimum 1), or if you are effecting another creature with blade ward, you gain a bonus to AC equal to half your Intelligence modifier rounded down (minimum 1). In addition, you have advantage on Constitution saving throws to maintain concentration on a spell when you take damage. You can also choose to use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to grant the target of your blade ward resistance to magic for 1 round.

    17th level Daggerspell Flurry: A daggerspell mage can blend spellcasting with a flurry of dagger attacks. When a daggerspell mage uses the Attack action, he can use a bonus action to make a secondary attack with his other dagger and cast any spell he knows, replacing the damage of the dagger with the effects of the spell. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature. In addition, when a hostile creature’s movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to make a dagger attack and cast a spell at the creature, replacing the damage of the dagger with the effects of the spell. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only one creature. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.


    There you go. Comment away!
    Allright, then... first: it´s a nice idea, I also liked the concept of the char, but IMO, there are a few fixes I´d like to point out.

    1) The arcane trickster can only choose spells from the enchantment and illusion schools, and only a few extra spells at some specific levels. Looking at your concept maybe the only allowed schools should be Evocation and Abjuration?

    2) Daggerspell stance is kinda broken, a whole minute of resistance to slashing, bashing and piercing is what a Barbarian gets for spending a Rage, and you only just used a cantrip and it lasted a minute? I think it´s a broken cantrip in the first place and wouldn´t give this ability at all. Maybe give the two weapon fighting style technique from the fighter would make more sense for a dual wielder?
    Second, the damage by spending a spell is either to high or lasts too long, if you´re gonna make it last a number of rounds equal to the spell level, I would allow a 1d4 for every spell level. If not, I would only allow the damage until you actually hit your first attack with that dagger. Maybe the second solution is more elegant and not so OP.
    -Another interesting variable here might me to allow the daggers you hold to have one of three magical effects of your choice that are switchable as a bonus action, these could be Returning (so that your daggers become more useful thrown weapons), Poison (I mean, you are a rogue after all. Maybe 1d8 poison damage and poisoned condition on a failed save?) or regular Magical (+1 up to level 8, + to level 14 and +3 after that, without allowing it to stack with any magic hit and damage bonus from magical daggers... this might be a bit OP though).

    3) Invocation of the Knife: Adding the magical bonus to spell attacks is kinda moot considering the character wont have many spells anyway. Ask yourself, if you are gonna want to use two daggers, why cast damage spells? Or viceversa, if you are wanna go with spells, why wield two daggers at all? I mean, besides the fashion-sense :)
    The second part is also just broken, why attack with a dagger to use a cantrip if just using the cantrip straight-up would be the same. And why risk using a cantrip in melee to just score a dagger attack? OK Sneak Attack aside, there is a reason why cantrips aren´t Bonus Actions and they are Actions. Cantrips as bonus actions are, IMO, broken.
    IMO Invocation of the Knife should be something more on the lines of you being able to cast your touch or damage spells into your daggers and allowing you to deliver those spells as part of the attack. All in all a big improvement to the previous ability and, why not, something that may stack for obscene-magic-charged-sneak-attacks! You might allow maybe to cast a single spell as an action to a dagger (you can do it with both, MAAAAYBE, by allowing to cast a cantrip to the second dagger as a bonus action) and have fun. Chilltouch and Scorching Ray cast as two dagger attacks + the sneak attack on round 1? OP, but I guess goes with the whole idea, right? You still would have to hit with the attacks anyway and you just made the long-hated two weapon fighting be worthwhile. (remember, making the player choose to cast the spells on his daggers and wasting a turn on that IS balanced if he is going to be doing those horrible amounts of damage).

    4) Improved Dagger Spell Stance is also too op, too confusing, and too many abilities to something that at this level should be powerful and specific. You wanna give it some flavor? How ´bout since we are talking of a melee fighter mostly, allow him to cast a cantrip or one spell for free every time he attacks with a dagger with his main and off hand? You just made a simple thing even more powerful and not confusing for the player, yay! Also, giving the Resilient (constitution) feat for free is just... well... too free for my taste

    5) Daggerspell Flurry, archetype capstones are a reason for some players to not multiclass, which in this case might be something to think about. Considering your fighting method and the whole concept I would add some magical movement flavor or something since all the casting and damage is already at it´s peak... for example: you spend a spell level (by this rate of up to level 4) and you choose a number of targets equal to the spell level spent. Your character teleports to those targets and makes a dual dagger attack to each which is treated as a single attack with a bonus to hit and damage equal to the spell level spent+the damage die of your second dagger (+any magical weapon DAMAGE bonuses that the second dagger has). You can divide your sneak attack dice between the targets you hit in any way you choose. You cannot select a target more than once and they must all be between 30 feet of each other. You must be standing at 30 feet of the first target for this effect to be used and you must choose a square between 30 feet of the last target to finish your turn.
    This would look cool, be incredibly useful, not so OP since you don´t have a thousand spells anyway to use it constantly, and the damage isn´t ridiculously high. If the character empowered a weapon with a spell or elemental damage before, allow him to only hit the first target he hits with both spells (or the elemental effect).

    Sorry, maybe I changed the core of your idea a bit too much, I got carried away. The thing is that I see a lot of cantrip use and secondary bonuses that wouldn´t be that useful or that are completely OP (really, a whole minute of bladeward is too much for a rogue, specially when you get uncanny dodge at level 4... barbarians can just retire). I tried to make it more dual-wieldy-damage-mage, since the trickster is the more "operative and mischief" kinda spellthief, so I hope it can help in some way...

    Keep up the good homebrewing mate!

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Spells: It should have a school limit. Abjuration and Evocation?

    Daggerspell stance: Ditch the blade ward part. That's really strong... To keep the elemental damage part, why not as a bonus action infuse the weapons with a energy type and for the round they cause that kind of damage instead of the usual one? That way you keep the rogue's damage the same (attack plus sneak attack) but gives him utility allowing him to explore damage vulnerabilities or resistance at the cost of his off-hand attack. Or maybe make it cost an action but stay on for one minute.

    Invocation of the Knife: I actually like how it works. The first part feel all 4e implementy. Maybe the second part is too much. You should try to cut the bloat of abilities instead of each ability allowing two or three things. Since at level 7 the fighter-mage gains the ability to cast a cantrip then bonus action a sigle attack, I think your rogue could gain the same ability. it's still relevant.

    Improved daggerspell stance: No no, too much. You see, if you think "this ability will add some pure numbers", your ability is already a bad ability in this system. Instead of all that you could fit the first part of invocation of knife here. Fits well as an Improvement or Utility ability, and cuts on the ability bloat.

    Capstone: Well, fighter-mages get the ability to bonus action attack after any spell, but it's tough for them because they have so many attacks. Since the rogue has only one (and if had more only one would matter since he can only sneak attack once) I think it would be simple and give the rogue-mage the same ability.


    it could look like this

    3: Can cast spell while holding daggers. As an action may imbue daggers with chosen energy type. For one minute (while keeping concentration maybe?) they cause this energy type damage instead of their normal type.

    9: May make one attack as bonus action after a cantrip.

    13: May use the dagger enhancement bonus for magical attacks. Since this ability doesn't do much by itself (since some campaigns won't use magic weapons), also maybe expand the damage choices of 3rd level ability to also radiant, necrotic, poison and psychic? That way it looks like an improved version of what you already had.

    17: If the fighter mage does it, do it too.


    Hope the brainstorming helps.
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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Thank you soooo much the the feedback guys, very much appreciated (I love this subclass idea). I realise it's pretty OP and each feature has too much, just kinda wanted all the abilities of the original PrC (+ the daggerspell stance spell) to be in it. I will defo start cutting it back and sliming it down while trying to keep the feel. Your advice is both valuable and wise, and I'll be scouring your posts for the best combo of ideas to bring this together.
    Last edited by Ghost Dragon; 2015-02-16 at 06:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Righto, have done some editing, have a look now and tell me what you think. Cheers :)

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Dragon View Post
    Righto, have done some editing, have a look now and tell me what you think. Cheers :)
    Now it´s taking colour.

    Only two things IMO: Using concentration on Daggerspell stance makes it kinda weak. Changing the damage type is flavorful, but illogic, since there are almost no enemies that are vulnerable to elemental damage anyway. If you´re gonna make it concentration, let it add a 1d6 of elemental damage AKA Hunter´s Mark or Hex style! This would of course then spend a spell slot.

    The second thing is I believe you should allow the player to cast a spell to each of his daggers, maybe that could be your 13th level ability, since it should be something kinda kickass. Maybe he can cast any action spell he knows to his main knife and any bonus action spells he knows to his off-hand knife. Once he hith with his dagger the spell activates immediately.

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Ok then, more revision. Di I have gone with extra damage on 3rd level ability because as Tarrab pointed out, there actually isn't much utility in having the energy types as the vulnerability of said types on MM creatures is very, very small. Check this thread out for more info on that:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ies-and-Damage

    So I added a spell slot expended and gave the class Hunters Mark essentially, just with the ability to choose the energy damage type (I added all types for the same reason I stated above).

    13th level I am hoping is balanced. I limited it to only spells that have instantaneous duration, as casting Vampiric touch into a dagger, although a favourite option of ole 3.5 DSM, I think would be OP with dagger damage on top of spell damage, but as it is I think it's balance, once again as Tarrab has suggested due to having to spend a round casting it into the dagger, then have to hit with it within the time frame of the ability.

    I still wanted an ability to add a little bit of survivability, as most rogues I know use their cunning action to disengage after delivering sneak attack, but this rogue wants to use cunning action to stay in combat and strike more (that's why I had that whole blade ward thing to begin with). Any idea on where I could slot in/replace something for some survivability?

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Dragon View Post
    Ok then, more revision. Di I have gone with extra damage on 3rd level ability because as Tarrab pointed out, there actually isn't much utility in having the energy types as the vulnerability of said types on MM creatures is very, very small. Check this thread out for more info on that:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ies-and-Damage

    So I added a spell slot expended and gave the class Hunters Mark essentially, just with the ability to choose the energy damage type (I added all types for the same reason I stated above).

    13th level I am hoping is balanced. I limited it to only spells that have instantaneous duration, as casting Vampiric touch into a dagger, although a favourite option of ole 3.5 DSM, I think would be OP with dagger damage on top of spell damage, but as it is I think it's balance, once again as Tarrab has suggested due to having to spend a round casting it into the dagger, then have to hit with it within the time frame of the ability.

    I still wanted an ability to add a little bit of survivability, as most rogues I know use their cunning action to disengage after delivering sneak attack, but this rogue wants to use cunning action to stay in combat and strike more (that's why I had that whole blade ward thing to begin with). Any idea on where I could slot in/replace something for some survivability?
    I think both changers are ok and on par with other abilities from the rogue´s class. Survivability-wise you are forgetting that, the same way that the trickster gains the amazing illusion school, you are going to be abusing abjuration spells for defense, so I wouldn´t worry about it at all ;)

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    Thumbs up Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    I completly disagree with the elemental part. The way I see it your damage ability is sneak attack and your main subclass ability is Spellcasting. IMO turning your damage into elemental damage isn't about hitting a vulnerability (altough that's a nice perk), but mostly about avoiding the pretty common physical resistance. Physical character cause physical damage with their attacks, magical character causa elemental damage with their attacks; you get to choose (and sometimes take advantage of a vulnerability). It isn't strong, but it also isn't your "main" subclass ability. In any case it shouldn't be concentration anyway.

    But that's just how I would do it. That doesn't mean it can't work out like it is now. It works kinda like the elemental weapon spell.

    This subclass may be finished now. Congrats.
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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Hey Di, yup I hear what your saying there, that ability is something I wanted from the original PrC though, but I do see your point in terms of the Sneak Attack being the classes main damage dealing ability. I was just thinking as the classes weapons are limited to daggers, it would help make up for less damage dice from bigger weapons (Rapier). I suppose the two weapon fighting makes up for this though..... Hmm.

    How about making it activate with cunning action, duration of 1 mintues without concentration, choose the energy type for all damage (I still really liked that idea of making all the damage of that energy type), and get 1d4 bonus to damage when you have advantage? That way it's not an extra damage die all the time, only adding a die on top of the original classes main damage dealing capability and still keeps the feel of empowering daggers to do extra damage.

    What do you think Di? Tarrab?
    Last edited by Ghost Dragon; 2015-02-17 at 07:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Well, tell you the truth the extra 1d4 when you have advantage kinda feels like coming out of nowhere. If given both options I would keep it as it is right now.

    There are many ways you could phrase this effect actually. Three from the top of my head.

    -You create the "elemental blade" cantrip that changes a weapon damage type to a certain energy you choose when you learn the spell for 1 minute. You learn this cantrip for free and like the trickster gain an ability to modify it. In this case you may change the chosen energy with a bonus action.
    -As a bonus action you may activate this ability when you cause sneak attack damage, allowing you to trade spell slots for extra energy damage like a paladin's smite.
    -As a bonus action you infuse your weapon for 1 round, making it cause +1d4 extra elemental damage that increases at 5th, 11th and 17th level (essentially at the same level of a cantrip).

    All of them do the same thing in different ways. I say pick the way you think it's best, my only opinion is that it shouldn't be concentration (or your abjuration buffs would be screwed)
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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Dragon View Post
    Hey Di, yup I hear what your saying there, that ability is something I wanted from the original PrC though, but I do see your point in terms of the Sneak Attack being the classes main damage dealing ability. I was just thinking as the classes weapons are limited to daggers, it would help make up for less damage dice from bigger weapons (Rapier). I suppose the two weapon fighting makes up for this though..... Hmm.

    How about making it activate with cunning action, duration of 1 mintues without concentration, choose the energy type for all damage (I still really liked that idea of making all the damage of that energy type), and get 1d4 bonus to damage when you have advantage? That way it's not an extra damage die all the time, only adding a die on top of the original classes main damage dealing capability and still keeps the feel of empowering daggers to do extra damage.

    What do you think Di? Tarrab?
    I don´t know, Hex and Hunter´s Mark are both 1st level spells, giving a class ability that imitates it and expands it a tiny little bit doesn´t look OP to me. Maybe you need a third opinion on this, but I would leave it as it is.

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrab View Post
    I don´t know, Hex and Hunter´s Mark are both 1st level spells, giving a class ability that imitates it and expands it a tiny little bit doesn´t look OP to me. Maybe you need a third opinion on this, but I would leave it as it is.
    To be honest, the concentration thing was bothering me a bit about it as well after looking at abjuration spells I might pick. Sure mage armour and shield dont use it, but pretty much every other abjuration spell does, so I'm gonna axe the concentration thing, and with that gone it's too OP to have damage attached to it.

    Both Hex and Hunter's mark are only available to classes that don't also have sneak attack damage, so I think the whole making it utility is the way to go. It already gets a little more damage than the normal rogue due to TWF, getting ability modifier twice is pretty good, so I think thats ok. Besides it just makes the Daggercast ability something to look forward too if you want to nova damage people (I'm thinking Scorching Ray on one attack + sneak attack.... that's pretty cool I think).

    I think that will round it off and finish this subclass well, unless there are any other glaring objections?

    Thanks again Di and Tarrab for your input, it is very much appreciated.
    Cheers
    Last edited by Ghost Dragon; 2015-02-17 at 10:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    i object at force, necrotic, poison, psychic and radiant damage. poison actually fits a rogue, but making weapon damage into poison damage could be another subclass 'thing'. necrotic and specially radiant aren't usually the arcane 'thing'. mostly style reasons, nothing glaring except for psychic which i'm stongly against.
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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Quote Originally Posted by DiBastet View Post
    i object at force, necrotic, poison, psychic and radiant damage. poison actually fits a rogue, but making weapon damage into poison damage could be another subclass 'thing'. necrotic and specially radiant aren't usually the arcane 'thing'. mostly style reasons, nothing glaring except for psychic which i'm stongly against.
    I actually got the idea of those energy types from one of your previous posts..... wasnt ever going to use them until you suggested it, so you dont think so now? I have always thought of Necrotic and Radiant as Negative energy and Positive energy respectively, matching the whole energy manipulation thing of the class feature. I agree psychic is pushing it and poison really isnt an energy (though yes it fits the rogue well), and I suppose force isnt energy either.....

    So how about eliminate psychic, force and poison but leave in necrotic and radiant as I see them as energy types. What do ya think?

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Well man, I always advocated to elemental damage. Somewhere along the way you said "I added all types for the same reason I stated above" and it all went south.

    I don't see a balance issue with necrotic and radiant, even if it's mostly a divine thing. Somehow arcane got some necrotic but almost no radiant which is BS imo. Actually healing spells not being necromancy is also BS imo. But as I said those are style issues. If it's your style go for it.

    Now just to explain myself on the psychic part, there are some "blank resistance to damage, except psychic" things, like bear barbarian rage. The way i see it psychic is a rare damage type, and spells that deal it are few and far between. It seems special enough to warrant it's own "thing" you know? I wouldn't object at a Mind Thief subclass that dealt in mind reading, shielding, telepathy scrambling and psychic damage.
    Last edited by DiBastet; 2015-02-18 at 07:43 AM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Quote Originally Posted by DiBastet View Post
    Well man, I always advocated to elemental damage. Somewhere along the way you said "I added all types for the same reason I stated above" and it all went south.

    I don't see a balance issue with necrotic and radiant, even if it's mostly a divine thing. Somehow arcane got some necrotic but almost no radiant which is BS imo. Actually healing spells not being necromancy is also BS imo. But as I said those are style issues. If it's your style go for it.

    Now just to explain myself on the psychic part, there are some "blank resistance to damage, except psychic" things, like bear barbarian rage. The way i see it psychic is a rare damage type, and spells that deal it are few and far between. It seems special enough to warrant it's own "thing" you know? I wouldn't object at a Mind Thief subclass that dealt in mind reading, shielding, telepathy scrambling and psychic damage.
    No worries then, I started with just the normal energy types and so I've made it just them again. I know your talking style about some of the energy types but I want this to be something others can use and the five main energy types are the arcane standards so I'll run with them. Style wise that's still an awesome look for me, being able to do sheath your daggers in elemental damage. I completely agree on the psychic damage part after your explanation and the other damage types are not elemental.

    Right, so with that change I think it's done.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Dragon View Post
    Spellcasting: When you reach 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells.

    Cantrips: You learn three cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn another wizard cantrip of your choice at 10th level.

    Spell Slots: The Daggerspell Mage Spellcasting table (see Arcane Trickster Spellcasting table) shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell burning hands and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast burning hands using either slot.

    Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher: You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the abjuration and evocation spells on the wizard spell list. The Spells Known column of the Daggerspell Mage Spellcasting table (See Arcane Trickster spellcasting table) shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level. The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration orevocation spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 8th, 14th, or 20th level.

    Spellcasting Ability: Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your wizard spells, since you learn your spells through dedicated study and memorization. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a wizard spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
    Spellcasting looks fine.

    3rd level Daggerspell Stance: Starting at 3rd level, a daggerspell mage can cast spells with material and somatic components while holding a dagger in each hand and you may use your Cunning action to make a two weapon fighting attack with your second dagger and add your ability modifier to the second attack. In addition, you may use a bonus action and change your weapon damage type from piercing to your choice of acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder for 1 minute. This effect counts as magical spell damage. You may change the chosen energy type with a bonus action at any time. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.
    Wow, there's a lot here. Maybe not OP, but iffy. Remember that Cunning Action is an ability that give you uses for your bonus action, not an action in and of itself, so your ability here is strangely worded. overall, it needs some smoothing out. Try this on for size:

    Daggerspell Stance: Starting at 3rd level, a Daggerspell mage gains the Two-weapon fighting combat style, can treat his pair of daggers as an arcane focus for his Daggerspell Mage spells, and he may cast spells with somatic components while holding a dagger in each hand. In addition, as a bonus action, he may change the damage type of his daggers to acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. THis lasts for 1 minute, and he must complete a Short or Long Rest before he can do it again.

    9th level Invocation of the Knife: At 9th level you can use a dagger as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells. Whenever you use your action to cast a cantrip, you may make one melee weapon attack using your Cunning Action. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.
    Spellcasting focus shifted to 3rd level, so remove that. Leave the second part. Works just like the EK, except use the term Bonus action instead of Cunning Action.

    13th level Double Daggercast: At 13th, you can hold the charge of one spell for each dagger that you are holding in your hands. You must designate which dagger holds each spell at the time the spell is cast. A spell cast in this manner must have a casting time of 1 action or less and have a duration of instantaneous. You can deliver the spell with a dagger weapon attack (either a melee weapon attack or a ranged weapon attack). You can hold the charge of spells cast in this way a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Intelligence modifier. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.
    This is a OP. The game goes out of its way to ensure that no more than one spell can be cast in a given turn, regardless of the number of actions. Cantrips, those can stack, but not spells. Change the wording or make it only one spell charged at a time.

    17th level Daggerspell Flurry: At 17th level, you can use a bonus action to expend a spell slot and activate your Daggerspell Flurry. You then use your action and teleport within a 30ft radius of your position a number of times equal to the level of the spell slot expended. Each time you teleport, it must be next to a creature and you must make two melee weapon attacks on that creature. When you complete your last attack you teleport back to your original position. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.
    Two per teleport is too much. Try this:

    17th level Daggerspell Flurry: At 17th level, you may use your action to activate Daggerspell Flurry. Expend a spell slot, and you may teleport within a 60ft radius of your position a number of times equal to the level of the spell slot expended. Each time you teleport, it must be next to a creature you can see and you may make a melee weapon attack on that creature. When you complete your last attack you may teleport to any other spot you can see in the 60' radius. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.


    Hope this helps make it a bit more balanced. Really cool idea!

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    Spellcasting looks fine.



    Wow, there's a lot here. Maybe not OP, but iffy. Remember that Cunning Action is an ability that give you uses for your bonus action, not an action in and of itself, so your ability here is strangely worded. overall, it needs some smoothing out. Try this on for size:

    Daggerspell Stance: Starting at 3rd level, a Daggerspell mage gains the Two-weapon fighting combat style, can treat his pair of daggers as an arcane focus for his Daggerspell Mage spells, and he may cast spells with somatic components while holding a dagger in each hand. In addition, as a bonus action, he may change the damage type of his daggers to acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. THis lasts for 1 minute, and he must complete a Short or Long Rest before he can do it again.
    Yep like that a lot, cut down on wordiness and made it clearer, thanks :). Ima make it 1+Int uses per long rest though, used pally divine sight as reference.

    Spellcasting focus shifted to 3rd level, so remove that. Leave the second part. Works just like the EK, except use the term Bonus action instead of Cunning Action.
    Yup good move. Done.

    This is a OP. The game goes out of its way to ensure that no more than one spell can be cast in a given turn, regardless of the number of actions. Cantrips, those can stack, but not spells. Change the wording or make it only one spell charged at a time.
    This was not meant to allow you to cast two spells at once. I can re word it so it states each spell must be cast into a dagger separately. It's there cause I'm trying to keep it from the original PrC, but I'm not sure about it, it just seems complicated, which I know is something that 5e is trying to avoid. Maybe dump this for something else? Maybe a pallyesk arcane smite? Spend a slot for extra damage?

    Two per teleport is too much. Try this:

    17th level Daggerspell Flurry: At 17th level, you may use your action to activate Daggerspell Flurry. Expend a spell slot, and you may teleport within a 60ft radius of your position a number of times equal to the level of the spell slot expended. Each time you teleport, it must be next to a creature you can see and you may make a melee weapon attack on that creature. When you complete your last attack you may teleport to any other spot you can see in the 60' radius. You must be holding a dagger in each hand to use this feature.


    Hope this helps make it a bit more balanced. Really cool idea!
    Well I'm not sure about that, with only dagger damage output, we're only talking minimum of 5 & maximum 9 damage per hit (assuming 20 dex with no magic weapon but not including one target getting sneak attack if possible), and if I'm gonna spend a precious 4th level slot on this at 17th I want more than 9 damage per hit. With two weapon hits it gives a minimum of 12 & maximum of 18 per hit, a little more respectable for that level. What do you think Sub?

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue Archetype: Daggerspell Mage

    Righto peeps, made a few major changes to the last two features, the new Blade Shift and Daggercast.

    Blade shift is hopefully a little more utility and straight forward to use, adding arcane flavour to it (used monk shadow step as guide, I know this one doesnt have limitation of dim light or darkness, which is why I put the whole needs a 3rd or 4th level slot to power it. I think this balances it?).

    Daggercast is pretty much EK improved war magic and eldritch strike(with advantage being a condition) added together with different delivery mechanics for the flavour of the whole *I cast spells through my daggers* thing i wanted. As a capstone I think its balanced, but would like input on it.

    If you have any concerns about balance, please make suggestions that would alter it only slightly but fix any problems as I really like the features now and the flavour they bring.

    Cheers all!

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