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Thread: Bitchy PC

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Bitchy PC

    I'm DM and one of my PC's doesn't understand that he's not in control. I need help to tell him that even if it's in the book it doesn't make it so... I MAKE IT SO!!! Every time I tell him this it just goes right over his head help!

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Step #0: Before you run the game, you need to familiarize yourself with the rules. If there is anything you are going to be changing for your game, you need to tell the players about the change and why you are changing it before anyone even rolls up characters. Anyone who does not like it is free to not play.

    During actual play:

    Step #1: Very calmly, clearly, and politely explain that you are running the game, and that you are aware of what the book says, and that for your game you are doing things differently.

    Step #2: He gets two chances. If repeating step #1 does not yield the desired result, very calmly, clearly, and politely inform the player that he is no longer welcome in your session because he cannot adhere to the rules you have set forth.

    Step #3: If there is still a problem at this point, smack dat fool upside his fool head.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    On the other hand, if you've made a rules mistake (literally speaking here, if you've say, misread something) and the player is simply giving you the correct information, you really need to ease off the power trip.

    DnD is a collaborative game. If you start brow-beating your players for little to no reason, you'll soon find you have no players.
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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Quote Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
    I'm DM and one of my PC's doesn't understand that he's not in control. I need help to tell him that even if it's in the book it doesn't make it so... I MAKE IT SO!!! Every time I tell him this it just goes right over his head help!
    Ok, please elaborate, or else we WILL assume you have a god complex.
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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    My PC insists that the book has power over me not the other way around. Ps in DND I do have a god complex since My original PC ascended to god hood after getting the last hit on orcus and haveing over 100,000 worshipers. and now I'm DM soo... yeah.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Quote Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
    The book it doesn't make it so... I MAKE IT SO!!!
    All I can think of.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
    My PC insists that the book has power over me not the other way around. Ps in DND I do have a god complex since My original PC ascended to god hood after getting the last hit on orcus and haveing over 100,000 worshipers. and now I'm DM soo... yeah.

    Neither of those things mean that you've got carte blanche to go mad with power though...
    Last edited by Kid Jake; 2015-02-17 at 10:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Becoming a god doesn't allow you to go mad with power?

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Ok off topic I need a way to get through to my PC without threatening to make him leave the group, because like I would expect most people Dnd players are limited in the area

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    OP. When you get people agreeing to play a game with you, there is a a certain unspoken compact that the rules of the game will be followed. Otherwise it's not That Game. The Game that everyone agreed to play. It's an unknown something else that the players never signed up for.

    DM Fiat is a narrative device, not an excuse to indulge in a powertrip. If you don't understand that then you shouldn't be DMing.

    Could you please explain how your player is "bitchy?". Are we even allowed to say "bitchy?" All you've got so far is that the player wants you to follow the rules.

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    Give us examples. What rule did you change that caused the player to reference the book and try say otherwise? Did you warn the player of this rule change beforehand and made sure they understood it. How exactly did they react other then going "but the rulebook says otherwise?".

    Also: D&D is a social activity. You wouldn't invite people to go bowling or watch game of thrones and then start drastically changing the rules on them/put on coronation street mid evening without any warning then kicking up a fuss when they ignore you. D&D is the same way: You're inviting friends or sometimes strangers to partake in an activity for fun. If you start powertripping, you have zero right to complain if they leave because you turned a night of fun into a night of not-fun.

    Finally, remember that no gaming is better then bad gaming, which goes for any activity really. If you're trying to run a session and not having any fun, don't be afraid of going "This isn't working out" and doing something else. If the problem is that everyone doesn't agree with your way of doing things, well you'll likely have to change your methods or choose not to run for these players. You can try to browbeat them, but I can assure you it won't end well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post
    Step #0: Before you run the game, you need to familiarize yourself with the rules. If there is anything you are going to be changing for your game, you need to tell the players about the change and why you are changing it before anyone even rolls up characters. Anyone who does not like it is free to not play.

    During actual play:

    Step #1: Very calmly, clearly, and politely explain that you are running the game, and that you are aware of what the book says, and that for your game you are doing things differently

    This. I hate when the DM changes rules without disclosing it pre-game. I'm a by the book player. I plan my characters out based on how the book says the game goes. If a DM wants to play by different rules, I'm OK with that. Just need to know first. And I would hope they would be cool with me making a new character if they didn't disclose a rule change that could affect me.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    For an example my PC is a rouge who wants to be an assassin and according to the book he has to kill someone for the purpose of becoming an assassin. At the time we were traveling with an evil cleric that we all knew was going to turn on us at one point or another, he wonted to kill him to kill a upcoming enemy and to fill all prerequisites for the prestige class. I told him he had to kill someone "innocent" and then we started arguing right in the middle of the session! I don't think this is a big enough change to get under anyone's skin so please no accusations on my DMing
    Last edited by Sivar; 2015-02-17 at 11:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Note that by killing him he would get death attack which would make everyone's day a lot easier dealing with the new found mini boss

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Also;

    The person asking you to follow the rules is a PLAYER. Not a PC. The PC is that person's character. The PC doesn't know he's in a game with rules. He doesn't exist.

    That guy that punched out Orcus and became a god with 100,000 worshippers? That person wasn't you. That was your PC. He doesn't actually exist. You didn't punch out Orcus. Orcus doesn't exist. You aren't a god. You don't have 100,000 worshippers; you don't even have one. The exploits of your PC in a different game have nothing to do with your performance as a DM in this one.

    Telling this is hopefully not required. It should never be required. I'm starting to think better safe than sorry.

    EDIT: OK. So you changed PrC requirements without explanation because, rightly or wrongly, you thought a class ability would make short work of your miniboss.

    You know what you should have done?

    Made a better miniboss.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Quote Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
    For an example my PC is a rouge who wants to be an assassin and according to the book he has to kill someone for the purpose of becoming an assassin. At the time we were traveling with an evil cleric that we all knew was going to turn on us at one point or another, he wonted to kill him to kill a upcoming enemy and to fill all prerequisites for the prestige class. I told him he had to kill someone "innocent" and then we started arguing right in the middle of the session! I don't think this is a big enough change to get under anyone's skin so please no accusations on my DMing
    Just because you expect someone to turn on you does not mean that they are not innocent before the attempt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
    For an example my PC is a rouge who wants to be an assassin and according to the book he has to kill someone for the purpose of becoming an assassin. At the time we were traveling with an evil cleric that we all knew was going to turn on us at one point or another, he wonted to kill him to kill a upcoming enemy and to fill all prerequisites for the prestige class. I told him he had to kill someone "innocent" and then we started arguing right in the middle of the session! I don't think this is a big enough change to get under anyone's skin so please no accusations on my DMing
    It was still an ad hoc change out of nowhere.

    By the players hand book, Assassins are made by killing ANYONE innocent or not, simply for the reason of becoming one.

    Telling your player in the middle of the session that that wouldnt work with no warning is bad DMing.

    I assume you wanted him to stab a peasant somewhere or something?
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    Because if you are in a position to break the Wizard's spell component pouch and stop him from casting spells, you are also in a position to stab him in the kidneys and stop him from being alive.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    I guess the thing is, you agreed to let the player go into the assassin PRC as long as he fulfilled the requirements, but you changed them on the spot because it suddenly became a hassle.

    Noting well that very often the difference between an adventurer, a murderer and an assassin is one of PR: all three go out and kill people, often very deliberately. the first does it for "justice", the second does it for whatever reason they feel spurred on by and the third historically (as in real life historical) does it for political reasons.

    If you intended the target to be an innocent you should have told the player this beforehand and made sure he understood this, as he now may not want to become an assassin but has put resources towards that end. If this is his decision, you should at least allow him the courtesy of reallocating those resources or re-rolling a new PC.
    Last edited by oxybe; 2015-02-17 at 11:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Background Knowledge: We have had this conversation before hand but he wonted to bring it back up to see if I'd reconsider due to the circumstances
    Last edited by Sivar; 2015-02-17 at 11:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    How on earth do you decide someone is "Innocent?". "Innocent" of what?

    "Innocent" in the context of not having done anything specific to have provoked the murder? Then the evil Cleric qualifies.

    "Innocent" in a more sublime sense? Then you'll have to look really hard to find someone worthy.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Quote Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
    For an example my PC is a rouge who wants to be an assassin and according to the book he has to kill someone for the purpose of becoming an assassin. At the time we were traveling with an evil cleric that we all knew was going to turn on us at one point or another, he wonted to kill him to kill a upcoming enemy and to fill all prerequisites for the prestige class. I told him he had to kill someone "innocent" and then we started arguing right in the middle of the session! I don't think this is a big enough change to get under anyone's skin so please no accusations on my DMing
    It would certainly irritate me. Since if I'm going to play an Assassin, I'll be wanting to kill important people, and important people are very unlikely to be "innocent", whatever that means. Heck, killing an important priest who was very likely to cause the party trouble in the future sounds EXACTLY like what an Assassin should be doing.

    Protip: stop changing stuff if you don't want people to get angry at you for changing stuff on them.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    The prerequisite to be an assassin is "The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins." It definitely sounds like your player had some other reason to kill this Cleric. So I think you are actually on the right side of this dispute, from a rules perspective. In fact, I believe the usual way it's done is for the assassins to assign a target to a potential recruit, as sort of an initiation test. You couldn't just kill some random dude and tell them, "Hey, look, I killed this dude! Can I join your club now?"

    I personally dislike that requirement, and I prefer to just ignore it and let players take assassin levels without having to join a special organization to do so. But I acknowledge that that is a deviation from the book.

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    Innocent as in the character becoming an assassin has no knowledge that the NPC has done anything wrong or has no need or intent to kill them besides for becoming an assassin

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    This is why more often than not when something comes up in my games I generally give my players the benefit of the doubt. What we do is if something comes up we'll discuss it for a bit then I'll make a ruling, generally in my players favor, but I'll tell them I'm taking it for the week. After the game I dig in to the book, check the net and occasionally have asked here for help, then I make a decision and email my players about it.

    For example, last game we had a players climb into a handy haversack and cast silent image to make the ranger look like a ghost they had met earlier. This just seemed cheesy as hell to me and I explained to them that I didn't think this stuff actually worked that way but I wanted to reward creativity.

    After the game I looked at the rules and yep I was right they couldn't have done any of the stuff they had tries. But it was funny as hell and I think, I hope, that my players respect that I may not know all the rules but I try to be fair with them about it if they approach it right. If they come at my with a dickish attitude they would probably get one back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
    Background Knowledge: We have had this conversation before hand but he wonted to bring it back up to see if I'd reconsider due to the circumstances
    This seems like something you should have mentioned in the op.

    If this is actually true (which i doubt).

    The player should have been made aware of the changes to the requirements of becoming an assassin, and he should have I dunno, asked you if the cleric qualifies.

    Though what the hell "Innocent" means in this context, I have no idea.

    To me it seems you're honestly trying to screw this guy for no reason, especially since you told us that the assassins death attack will ruin your mini boss.
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    Because if you are in a position to break the Wizard's spell component pouch and stop him from casting spells, you are also in a position to stab him in the kidneys and stop him from being alive.

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Probably better justification: "You're killing him because you think he'll turn on you, not just because you want to join the assassins."

    In any case, it's honestly a slightly silly thing for the player to argue about, but your inherent reasoning (I don't want him using it on my boss!) is also silly, so it was a mistake on everybody's part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
    Innocent as in the character becoming an assassin has no knowledge that the NPC has done anything wrong or has no need or intent to kill them besides for becoming an assassin
    That is a very specific use of "Innocent."

    Troacctid is correct: You could have said. "Sorry. You've been wanting to kill this guy anyway. Because you know he's bad news. This is meant to be a dark rite of passage and you can't use it as an excuse get your dirty work done." That would have left you completely in the right by the book.

    But instead, you changed the rules in a nonsensical fashion. Because you think a Rogue with Assassin levels is going to be too dangerous against your miniboss.

    Exactly when are they going to meet this miniboss? because if he's not actually waiting right in the next room then you should have plenty of time to come up with something that doesn't involve this thread.

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    I'm going to stop commenting/looking at this thread because people are starting to only comment to argue and not offer solutions :/

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    Default Re: Bitchy PC

    Solution 1: Be a more accomodating DM. Understand that players are there to have fun and that while you might be god of the PC universe, you're just another person to the players.

    Solution 2: Find players that are okay with having such a god-complex DM.

    Solution 3: Take up shuffleboard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
    I'm going to stop commenting/looking at this thread because people are starting to only comment to argue and not offer solutions :/
    Instead of trying to block access to death attack, just work around it. While death attack is rather scary, it can be counteracted with relative ease.

    1. Protection from sneak attacks - armor fortification enhancements block sneak attacks and therefor prevent death attack from being used. Being undead or a construct would also work just fine, and the simplest method is to just slap on necropolitan.

    2. Don't get caught flat-footed - death attack requires 3 full rounds of undetected observation. Pump up listen and spot, or invest in special vision such as blindsense, blindsight, or tremorsense.

    3. Just deal with it - the guy's only going to get 1 death attack per fight, and the DC's not very high, so just pump up the fortitude save.
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